Is there a minimum threshold for getting to the platform?

[Tibbs]

Is there anywhere that sets out a minimum time between announcing the platform and the train leaving?

There was a situation last week where the platform at Euston was announced less than 2 minutes before the train left. The dispatcher was already blowing his whistle when I got to the barriers at Platform 8 (walking briskly) and I just barely made it on the train. There were loads of people behind me, and I have no idea if everyone made it onto the train, but I couldn't imagine everyone made it on before they shut the doors.

 

[yorkie]

I doubt there is an official rule, but in the circumstances you describe I'd be tempted to do anything I could eo ensure that as many people could get the train as possible. I did that once at St Pancras years ago, and the dispatcher didn't particularly like it but I politely explained why I was doing it and that if they forced people to miss the train through no fault of the passenger I'd put in a complaint, he then allowed the passengers to board.

 

[Tibbs]

It's been a rush in the past, but this one seemed excessive. It's especially true when that ask you to stay on the concourse before they announce the platform. There's no way someone who wasn't able to walk at 'London Pace' would have made it from the concourse in time.

I've held doors open before for people and will continue to do so. I won't do it on the underground where another train is always only a couple of minutes behind, but on the railway where a missed train could mean an hour's wait or more it's a good thing to do.

 

[AlexS]

Blocking the doors is all well and good until it upsets the TMS and causes the cancellation of a train's diagram due to it's failure - ultimately causing far more inconvenience than it's worth. Not a common occurance but it's been known to happen and the same applies to pulling the passcomm/egress.

 

[Monty]

It's a pet peeve of mine passengers holding open doors, I understand passengers don't always get enough notice to walk to the correct platform for their train and when I am aware of it I try to give them a little more time to ensure people are able to board. But using force to prevent the doors from closing not only holds up the train forr everyone else but it can damage them also. Then the train goes nowhere.

 

[Tibbs]

It's a pet peeve of mine passengers holding open doors, I understand passengers don't always get enough notice to walk to the correct platform for their train and when I am aware of it I try to give them a little more time to ensure people are able to board. But using force to prevent the doors from closing not only holds up the train forr everyone else but it can damage them also. Then the train goes nowhere.

The place I used to hold open the doors fairly regularly was at Vauxhall. It seemed like 90% of the train decamped there in the morning, and often half the people already stood on the platform didn't get a chance to board before the doors started to close!

There's wanting to keep to a timetable and then there's just being mean.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Blocking the doors is all well and good until it upsets the TMS and causes the cancellation of a train's diagram due to it's failure - ultimately causing far more inconvenience than it's worth. Not a common occurance but it's been known to happen and the same applies to pulling the passcomm/egress.

Forgive me, but I didn't understand any of the first part of the first sentence. What's a TMS, or a Train's diagram?

 

[ainsworth74]

Forgive me, but I didn't understand any of the first part of the first sentence. What's a TMS, or a Train's diagram?

Something along the lines of Train Management System, basically the trains electronic brain. When they work, my understanding is that they're really useful bit's of kit but at the same time if they go wrong or decide they don't like something that's happens then the train ain't going nowhere till the problem has been cleared. Holding a door open could be the causes of the TMS deciding that something is wrong with the train and not moving until the fault is cleared.

A diagram is basically what a specific train is booked to do during the day. So it could be booked to run something like this: Depot - Kings Cross - Peterborough - Kings Cross - Cambridge - Kings Cross - Peterborough - Kings Cross - Depot. So if that train were to breakdown at Cambridge then the next service it's diagrammed to run could also be cancelled or severely delayed unless another train can be found to take over the rest of it's diagram. A train's whole day is planned from start to finish, they don't just allocate services on the basis of what trains are available (well unless things have really gone to hell in a handbasket).

 

[Geezertronic]

Blocking the doors is all well and good until it upsets the TMS and causes the cancellation of a train's diagram due to it's failure - ultimately causing far more inconvenience than it's worth. Not a common occurance but it's been known to happen and the same applies to pulling the passcomm/egress.

That is assuming the dispatcher has given the instruction to the guard to shut the doors. Reading previous comments, they would suggest this not to be the case and the dispatcher has not given the instruction so the doors are not forcefully being kept open.

 

[michael769]

Sort notice announcements and platform changes was a serious issue at Waverley for many years. Folks familiar with the station will know how difficult it is to get between certain platforms quickly.

The level of complaints it generated did seem to eventually have an impact and I have to admit that it is for the most part now a thing of the past

I certainly would not advocate holding doors but if people are regularly seeing staff attempting to dispatch trains before all passengers who have arrived in time to make the train have had reasonable time to board I would urge that complaints are submitted to the relevant ToC.

Likewise where people see cases of platforms being announced unreasonably late.

 

[WillPS]

It's a pet peeve of mine passengers holding open doors, I understand passengers don't always get enough notice to walk to the correct platform for their train and when I am aware of it I try to give them a little more time to ensure people are able to board. But using force to prevent the doors from closing not only holds up the train forr everyone else but it can damage them also. Then the train goes nowhere.

If a train door can't deal with a passenger holding it open, then it isn't fit for purpose.

 

[wintonian]

Is there anywhere that sets out a minimum time between announcing the platform and the train leaving?

There was a situation last week where the platform at Euston was announced less than 2 minutes before the train left. The dispatcher was already blowing his whistle when I got to the barriers at Platform 8 (walking briskly) and I just barely made it on the train. There were loads of people behind me, and I have no idea if everyone made it onto the train, but I couldn't imagine everyone made it on before they shut the doors.

As has been said I doubt it considering the amount of times I have heard the train announced as it has been leaving the platform, admittedly I am mainly thinking of 2/ 3 platform stations here but the same principle applies.

 

[Yew]

Although not as bad, I dont like kigns cross for that. I arrived 20 mins before my train was due to depart, it was sitting in the station when I got there. However the platform was only announced 10 mins before leaving. Hence we where sitting on the floor as the old concourse has very limited seating, and then a mad rush through the barriers to find our seats.

Definately could have been organised better

 

[OuterDistant]

If a train door can't deal with a passenger holding it open, then it isn't fit for purpose.

That was my immediate reaction too, but no system can really tell the difference between a fault and someone holding it open, and in both cases it would help the crew go straight to the problem.

 

[Tibbs]

As has been said I doubt it considering the amount of times I have heard the train announced as it has been leaving the platform, admittedly I am mainly thinking of 2/ 3 platform stations here but the same principle applies.

I guess the crux of the question is: What would be the upshot of this if you missed your train because you couldn't make it to the platform in time. Is the TOC obligated to do anything? I guess this is especially germain for holders of Advance tickets who can't just get on the next one.

 

[185]

Is there anywhere that sets out a minimum time between announcing the platform and the train leaving?

There was a situation last week where the platform at Euston was announced less than 2 minutes before the train left. The dispatcher was already blowing his whistle when I got to the barriers at Platform 8 (walking briskly) and I just barely made it on the train. There were loads of people behind me, and I have no idea if everyone made it onto the train, but I couldn't imagine everyone made it on before they shut the doors.

Euston is a mess, they have been running it like a badly run airport terminal for too long now. Trains should be open for boarding a minimum of 20 minutes before departure time, where possible. I have seen the scenario you mention about four or five times now and it's quite horrific to watch the elderly and disabled being pushed over in the mad scrum for the train. Other option would be to allow passengers to wait at platform level, although I agree this is not ideal at Euston.

 

[Tibbs]

Euston is a mess, they have been running it like a badly run airport terminal for too long now. Trains should be open for boarding a minimum of 20 minutes before departure time, where possible. I have seen the scenario you mention about four or five times now and it's quite horrific to watch the elderly and disabled being pushed over in the mad scrum for the train. Other option would be to allow passengers to wait at platform level, although I agree this is not ideal at Euston.

And actually when they do announce the platform early, and have the train sat on said platform waiting, they don't open the doors to let people on until a couple of minutes before! I still don't understand the reasoning behind that one... :roll:

Hopefully they knock down Euston & start again rather than just 'improve' it. Compare it to how a station should look (i.e. St. Pancras just down the road) it's an ugly ugly building. Something Art Deco would be brilliant to link it to the south end of Camden, but too much to ask for I guess...

 

[313103]

Some will not agree with everything i have to saybut here goes.
It shouldn't really happen and if i was the member of staff at the barrier i would allow a delay to the service to happen. I have done this on numerous occasions to allow passengers to cross platforms when we have changed due to one thing or another.

What i take issue to is passengers forcing the doors open or keeping them open for others to board either when the train is on time or running late, once they do this i will wait until the doors close off there own accord (normally and additional two to three minutes) if this doesn't work i will walk and i mean walk not run and fast, walk and be slow this then causes more delay ( i do not see it in my JD to rush around after others). On at least half a dozen occasions the train has been terminated short of destination and when they have reached their destination the return service is now late. On three occasions on class 378s when passengers have forced the doors open, neither me nor the driver have been able to reset the doors so the TIS is activated and the train is declared a failure, when people start to have a go at at me i often know the culprits who have done this and take these passengers to said person to explain there actions and not to have a go at me.

May not be PC, but i am not going to take the flak for something i had no control over.

 

[cle]

Euston is particularly bad. I think it's due to Virgin's tight turnarounds and cleaning/replenishing supplies.

With HSTs, I would just open a door but most trains don't have that option these days!

Especially considering they close the doors early deliberately.

Easiest thing to do is check online/on your phone. It always shows departure platforms, long before the departure boards do. Wait by that platform, just in case it's wrong or changed, rather than the main hall scrum.

 

[telstarbox]

Another problem at Euston is that the bulk of passengers travel in standard class, but have to walk past the four First coaches (which are usually at the London end of the train) before they can board, which adds on another minute or two.

Similar problems at St Pancras when EMT announce a platform only 8-10 minutes before departure, although there are only four platforms to choose from so it's easier to "guess" which is your train.

 

[maniacmartin]

i will walk and i mean walk not run and fast, walk and be slow this then causes more delay ( i do not see it in my JD to rush around after others).

So because of the actions of a select few passengers you will then deliberately further delay the train and all other passengers who boarded properly?

 

[E16 Cyclist]

That was my immediate reaction too, but no system can really tell the difference between a fault and someone holding it open, and in both cases it would help the crew go straight to the problem.

Another thing to be aware of is if thats a door immediatley behind a drivers cab safety rules mean that the whole carriage has to be locked out of service, as passengers wouldn't be able to simply walk to the next carriage in the event of an emergency. Sometimes doing what you think will help people actually turns out to have the opposite effect.

 

[Tibbs]

Another thing to be aware of is if thats a door immediatley behind a drivers cab safety rules mean that the whole carriage has to be locked out of service, as passengers wouldn't be able to simply walk to the next carriage in the event of an emergency. Sometimes doing what you think will help people actually turns out to have the opposite effect.

There's an easy solution - don't close the doors on people who are already waiting for the train. We're not talking rocket science here.

No-one expects the train to be held for some latecomer who is pelting along the platform, but for people who turn up on time I think it's bad form to not give them the opportunity to get on the train they turned up for.

Southern actually do this well on the MK - Croydon train in rush hour. It is by far the busiest overground train I've ever been on, beaten only by a Central Line train at Oxford Circus also at rush hour, and the guard does allow a decent amount of time for everyone to squish up in order to allow more people on.

Prevention is better than cure. Eliminate the need for people to hold doors open and they won't get damaged. Short of fining people for holding doors, you won't stop people doing it. Oh God, please don't tell me I've just given the TOCs yet another idea for a reveue stream... :roll:

 

[Essexman]

It always seems odd to be when they make the final announcement for a train at Euston about 3 minutes before departure is due, but can lock doors just a minute later. Given the distances required to walk to trains I would have thought 5 minutes before departure would be the latest an announcement should be made.

 

[Lampshade]

Euston is a mess, they have been running it like a badly run airport terminal for too long now. Trains should be open for boarding a minimum of 20 minutes before departure time, where possible. I have seen the scenario you mention about four or five times now and it's quite horrific to watch the elderly and disabled being pushed over in the mad scrum for the train. Other option would be to allow passengers to wait at platform level, although I agree this is not ideal at Euston.

Euston is terrible; trains announced between 5-10 minutes before departure then manual barrier checks to get onto the platform :roll:

What's annoying is Virgin had the platform allocations removed from NRE, so they know they can ease the problem, they're actively choosing not to.

 

[313103]

So because of the actions of a select few passengers you will then deliberately further delay the train and all other passengers who boarded properly?

So what your saying is that i must hurry up whilst others take their time............ hmmmmmm. Like the logic but in the real world this doesnt really happen. I would look like a mug if i start running up and down the train trying to shut doors whilst others are still trying to get on, even though they know that another one is about 5 minutes away.

I even had someone say to me that you are running so late that making announcements that the train is 7 minutes late is waste of time as no one is listening and that your running in the path of the train behind you, so to them you are on time.

It is not a select few either because once a group see that a door is open they all go to it and will still try to get on even when it trys to close. That is not a select few.

I dont deliberatley dlay the train but i will not run around, rushing makes matters worst.

 

[Realfish]

Euston is terrible; trains announced between 5-10 minutes before departure then manual barrier checks to get onto the platform :roll:

What's annoying is Virgin had the platform allocations removed from NRE, so they know they can ease the problem, they're actively choosing not to.

I've use Euston a couple of time a week for many years and whilst you suggest, boarding could take place earlier, I never experienced the sort of short notice departures you describe.

I have at Paddington though. 60 secs. to get to platform 13, through the barriers and the throng, needs some sharp elbows if you're not to be left on the platform (or more likely some distance short of it) when making your way to Henley for e.g. back in the summer. Horrible!

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I've use Euston a couple of time a week for many years and whilst you suggest, boarding could take place earlier, I never experienced the sort of short notice departures you describe.

I have at Paddington though. 60 secs. to get to platform 13, through the barriers and the throng, needs some sharp elbows if you're not to be left on the platform (or more likely some distance short of it) when making your way to Henley for e.g. back in the summer. Horrible!

To be fair at Paddington i've heard on several occassions announcements made for passengers waiting for a particular train to wait on platforms 13 and 14 prior to its arrival due to late running etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's an easy solution - don't close the doors on people who are already waiting for the train. We're not talking rocket science here.

No-one expects the train to be held for some latecomer who is pelting along the platform, but for people who turn up on time I think it's bad form to not give them the opportunity to get on the train they turned up for.

Southern actually do this well on the MK - Croydon train in rush hour. It is by far the busiest overground train I've ever been on, beaten only by a Central Line train at Oxford Circus also at rush hour, and the guard does allow a decent amount of time for everyone to squish up in order to allow more people on.

Prevention is better than cure. Eliminate the need for people to hold doors open and they won't get damaged. Short of fining people for holding doors, you won't stop people doing it. Oh God, please don't tell me I've just given the TOCs yet another idea for a reveue stream... :roll:

I was actually referring to after the instruction has been given to close the doors, of which the driver has no control over as they cannot see who's on the platform hence the need for a guard/dispatcher.

On the subject of prevention why is the announcement made so late? Is it the incoming train late arriving and the announcement made late to prevent platform overcrowding or is it something that can be easily fixed. I have a feeling the design of Euston plays a part here and is something hopefully the planned rebuilding will address.

On the flipside at paddington they announce the heathrow connect before the train has even entered the station!

 

[Mr Spock]

Euston is terrible; trains announced between 5-10 minutes before departure then manual barrier checks to get onto the platform :roll:

What's annoying is Virgin had the platform allocations removed from NRE, so they know they can ease the problem, they're actively choosing not to.

i am a frequent user of Euston and on the infrequent time a train platform is announced late then I have rarely seen a manual ticket check before boarding.

There are surges when platforms are announced but I have never seen elderley or disabled people knocked over or even pushed aside.

Most trains are announced some 15-20mins before departure and if its a Virgin train final boarding is announced 5 minutes (not 3) before departure.

 

[route:oxford]

It's fairly straightforward.

You ask for the assistance of an independent yet mobility impaired person, a wheelchair user and a visually impaired person. Set a stopwatch going and identify how long it takes them to reach the equivalent of the most distant Pendolino coach on the furthest platform from the main entrance to Euston at rush hour.

We now have a definitive "reasonable" time for a impaired person to reach their coach from the moment a train is first announced.

Where a "reasonable" time is not allowed, the relevant firms should be fined.

 

[exile]

I tend to get on the nearest coach and walk along in this sort of situation if I think there's any danger of the train leaving without me.