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Is the usage of Emergency Legislation still justified?

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Yew

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This has been split off from this thread on Social Gatherings

Agreed. Just because I support masks (though that support is waning as the evidence appears to be showing them to have little or no effect) doesn't mean I don't think it should have been through Parliamentary debate.

I'm quite angry at how Bozza has repeatedly circumvented Parliament over this and Brexit; we really need a tightening of our constitution to prevent this in future (and equally more agile processes and electronic voting, so Parliament can be properly consulted quickly rather than over several weeks).
Indeed, it seems that over the past few years the scope of a Statutory Instrument has grown phenomenally. It's starting to feel like they're being used as an executive branch of government, personally I'd like to see a parliamentary debate on if we're happy with this being the way things work currently. Similarly, with emergency legislation, I feel that it should have to be justified/ratified by the house when there is time.
 
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duncanp

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There is no excuse for saying "it is too urgent to consult parliament".

Parliament is now in sesssion, or it can be recalled if necessary, and MPs can sit during the night and at weekends.
 

MikeWM

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Every regulation that is being imposed by executive fiat has a line that says 'the Secretary of State is of the opinion that, by reason of urgency, it is necessary to make this instrument without a draft having been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament' as that is a requirement of the 1984 Act under which these regulations are issued. When Parliament is sitting, and measures are announced days in advance as they usually are, then this is very clearly a lie, and an abuse of process.

It is also the case that the Civil Contingencies Act was put in place for 'emergency' powers like this, and that should be the route used for such measures, rather than some obscure stuff that was added to the 1984 act around 2008 (in a previous post somewhere I posted a link to the Hansard debate on the relevant bits of legislation that are being used to issue these regulations; it is fairly clear they were not intended to be used in the way they are now being used).

There's now a third issue, that these SIs are being used to massively extend the Fixed Penalty Notice system to places that were never intended. When introduced, no-one imagined FPNs of £3200 or £10000 could be handed out in the way they now are.

I should add that the current crop of MPs are largely useless and would probably agree with whatever the Government proposes anyway, but that doesn't mean things shouldn't be done in a proper constitutional way.
 

Baxenden Bank

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The Emergency Legislation is due for 6 monthly review / renewal on 28 September (from the posts below the line on the Telegraph article last night).

I wonder if any mice will roar.

Eeek, eeek, scuttle away to a dark recess and enjoy the £85,000 salary plus expenses.
 

MikeWM

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It isn't Covid-related, but the Goverment has just published a (Brexit-related) bill that actually says - sadly I don't joke:

Regulations under [some sections of this Bill] are not to be regarded as unlawful on the grounds of any incompatibility or inconsistency with relevant international or domestic law

In other words, it is against the law, but we're doing it anyway.

I don't think I've ever seen the like. They're not even pretending to follow the rule of law anymore. So - why exactly should we?


Edit : it is even worse than that - it explicitly sets itself up as superior to every other law ever, and also not justiciable in any way:

'relevant international or domestic law' includes: ... any other legislation, convention or rule of international or domestic law whatsoever, including any order, judgment or decision of the European Court or of any other court or tribunal
 

infobleep

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It isn't Covid-related, but the Goverment has just published a (Brexit-related) bill that actually says - sadly I don't joke:



In other words, it is against the law, but we're doing it anyway.

I don't think I've ever seen the like. They're not even pretending to follow the rule of law anymore. So - why exactly should we?


Edit : it is even worse than that - it explicitly sets itself up as superior to every other law ever, and also not justiciable in any way:
If the government breaks international law it will probably be the country held accounts as a wholeand ministers wouldn't be fined.

However if we break the law then we could be individually fined. I'd rather not be fined personally. That's not the sole reason I wouldn't want to break the law but it's a consideration none the less.
 

furlong

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Lord Sumption (a former Justice of the Supreme Court) summarises the way the government has used the law quoted here as follows:

I think Boris Johnson is a Jonhsonite and that will lead him in different directions depending on the circumstances. Boris Johnson’s main problem is that he is obsessed with PR and he is not intelligent enough to study a problem carefully and in depth. Those are his two main problems. I think the problem is aggravated by the fact that decisions are being made within government by a very very small number of people and that the principle qualification for admission to his cabinet is loyalty as a result of which he is not getting the kind of internal discussion and criticism which makes for better decision making.”

“Well, the most important thing about the Coronavirus Act is that it is not the act which has been used to justify the lock down or other measures affecting citizens. There are no powers in the Coronavirus Bill to control the movements of healthy people. The government has in fact used the Coronavirus Act only to justify the financial implications of the lock down. Most of the Act is in fact concerned with authorising, with the minimum of parliamentary scrutiny, additional public expenditure.

“The lock down and the quarantine rules and most of the other regulations have been made under the Public Health Control of Disease Act of 1984 which was extensively amended in 2008. Now, there is no agreement among lawyers about which I’m about to say but I do not myself believe that that act confers on the government the powers which it has purported to exercise. Because it is a basic principle of British constitutional law that you cannot invade fundamental rights and there are few more fundamental rights than liberty, by using general terms. You’ve got to be specific about it. And the reason for that is that if you use general words to justify draconian invasions of fundamental rights, there’s too big a risk that it will pass unnoticed in the course of the parliamentary process. To invade fundamental rights you have to have absolutely specific language. The only specific language in the Public Health Act which justifies invasions of liberty relates to people who are believed, on reasonable grounds, to be infectious. Ministers can only do things that magistrates could do and magistrates only have power to control the movements of infected people or to control the opening of infected premises. They don’t have power to control uncontaminated premises or healthy people.

“The government has deliberately – I must assume deliberately because they have plenty of legal advice – they have used an act which to put it at its lowest, its application is profoundly controversial. In my view, an act which doesn’t confer powers. Now, the oddity is, the government does have power to do what it has done under another act which it has declined to use – The Civil Contingencies Act, 2004. The CCA is concerned with emergencies including health related emergencies and it empowers ministers to do anything that can be done by an act of parliament. Now you can’t get wider words than that. Why haven’t they used it? Now the only reason that I can think of for not using it is that the CCA has very stringent provisions for parliamentary scrutiny. A regulation under the act is only provisionally valid for 7 days unless it is approved by Parliament. Thereafter, it only has validity for 30 days; it has to be renewed every 30 days. Moreover, exceptionally there are provisions entitling Parliament to amend a regulation which is laid before it or to revoke it at any time. Now, the only reason that I can think of why the government did not use the one piece of legislation that’s plainly applicable is that it wished to avoid parliamentary scrutiny.”
 

yorksrob

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It isn't Covid-related, but the Goverment has just published a (Brexit-related) bill that actually says - sadly I don't joke:



In other words, it is against the law, but we're doing it anyway.

I don't think I've ever seen the like. They're not even pretending to follow the rule of law anymore. So - why exactly should we?


Edit : it is even worse than that - it explicitly sets itself up as superior to every other law ever, and also not justiciable in any way:

In truth, parliament is sovereign, so it has the inherant right to legislate against international law. However, I don't believe it should exercise that right willy-nilly (and certainly not in this case)

In terms of the emergency powers, they have gone on for too long. The Coronavirus legislation requires scrutiny.
 

6862

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I think we are seeing serious abuse of these Emergency Powers, and for me this is the most worrying part of the whole situation. After all, history is littered with examples of governments that introduced emergency regulations to solve certain problems, with predictably terrible results.

'Nothing is more permanent than a temporary government programme' - Milton Friedman
 

yorksrob

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I think we are seeing serious abuse of these Emergency Powers, and for me this is the most worrying part of the whole situation. After all, history is littered with examples of governments that introduced emergency regulations to solve certain problems, with predictably terrible results.

'Nothing is more permanent than a temporary government programme' - Milton Friedman

He's not my favourite economist, but I agree with him on that.
 

Senex

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In truth, parliament is sovereign, so it has the inherant right to legislate against international law. However, I don't believe it should exercise that right willy-nilly (and certainly not in this case)

In terms of the emergency powers, they have gone on for too long. The Coronavirus legislation requires scrutiny.

But Britain is a signatory to the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969 which came into force in 1980. The articles particularly relevant here seem to be 26, 27, and 46:
Article 26
“Pacta sunt servanda”
Every treaty in force is binding upon the parties to it and must be performed by them in good faith.
Article 27
Internal law and observance of treaties
A party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty. This rule is without prejudice to article 46.
Article 46
Provisions of internal law regarding competence to conclude treaties
1. A State may not invoke the fact that its consent to be bound by a treaty has been expressed in violation of a provision of its internal law regarding competence to conclude treaties as invalidating its consent unless that violation was manifest and concerned a rule of its internal law of fundamental importance.
2. A violation is manifest if it would be objectively evident to any State conducting itself in the matter in accordance with normal practice and in good faith.


So yes, a sovereign parliament no doubt has the right to legislate on whatever it likes, but here it seems that it is being asked not only to ignore a treaty that this very parliament signed up to but also to ignore an international convention that the British state has also signed up to and which it has called upon for support in criticising the behaviour of other states.
 

yorksrob

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But Britain is a signatory to the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969 which came into force in 1980. The articles particularly relevant here seem to be 26, 27, and 46:
Article 26
“Pacta sunt servanda”
Every treaty in force is binding upon the parties to it and must be performed by them in good faith.
Article 27
Internal law and observance of treaties
A party may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty. This rule is without prejudice to article 46.
Article 46
Provisions of internal law regarding competence to conclude treaties
1. A State may not invoke the fact that its consent to be bound by a treaty has been expressed in violation of a provision of its internal law regarding competence to conclude treaties as invalidating its consent unless that violation was manifest and concerned a rule of its internal law of fundamental importance.
2. A violation is manifest if it would be objectively evident to any State conducting itself in the matter in accordance with normal practice and in good faith.


So yes, a sovereign parliament no doubt has the right to legislate on whatever it likes, but here it seems that it is being asked not only to ignore a treaty that this very parliament signed up to but also to ignore an international convention that the British state has also signed up to and which it has called upon for support in criticising the behaviour of other states.

Which is why I don't agree with parliament exercising that right in this instance.

At the very least we should:

A) try and make the treaty work.

B) if it turns out that the country really can't function with it (which I doubt) we should attempt to mutually resolve the issue with the other countries involved.
 

backontrack

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There's a fairly wide cross-section of political views on this forum, yet nobody is defending the government's approach to emergency powers.

I think that says it all, really.
 

Nicholas43

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It's (even) worse than you think. The gov.uk website is full of stuff about we must and mustn't do (in England) from 14 September when Johnson's 'everyone has heard of six' rule is supposed to come in. But the statutory instrument which will legally impose this in England wasn't ready on Friday and presumably won't now be published until the day it starts. (The Scottish statutory instrument setting out their 'up to 6, only 2 households, children under 12 don't count' rule was published on 11 September.) Johnson is acting as if what he waffles at a press conference is law.
 

Yew

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I wonder if the house is getting a little fed up of it. When Hancock announced the "rule of six", Mr Speaker seemed rather annoyed that it hadn't been presented to them beforehand.


Does anyone have any speculations on whether the emergency powers will be continued at the end of the month
 

Yew

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I assume Boris can unilaterally extend them? If so, yes, certainly.
I thought it required a vote in the house. Do we think Labour will vote against, and would enough conservatives follow?
 

talldave

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I think it's hypocritical to classify requirements as an emergency when their introduction is several days in the future. It's not an emergency, it's an abuse of the legislation. Hopefully more of our elected representatives will wake up to this sooner rather than later.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think it's hypocritical to classify requirements as an emergency when their introduction is several days in the future. It's not an emergency, it's an abuse of the legislation. Hopefully more of our elected representatives will wake up to this sooner rather than later.

If a vote is required, then I'd imagine some Tories will vote against but Labour will vote for to balance it.
 

Senex

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I wonder if the house is getting a little fed up of it. When Hancock announced the "rule of six", Mr Speaker seemed rather annoyed that it hadn't been presented to them beforehand.

Does anyone have any speculations on whether the emergency powers will be continued at the end of the month

They're driving the proverbial coach and horses through the conventions of British political life and there appears to be no way at all to stop them. And is this the first government of modern times where much more power seems to reside with an unelected advisor than with the elected members of the government themselves — with the Rasputin figureof our times?
 

MikeWM

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Lord Sumption (a former Justice of the Supreme Court) summarises the way the government has used the law quoted here as follows:

Sumption has been very good on this from the beginning, one of the very few dissenting voices (along with Peter Hitchens).

Obviously I agree with his point about the Civil Contingencies Act being the correct route rather than the Public Health Act, as I said that myself earlier in this thread ;)

I remain unsure whether the using the 1984 Act is ultra vires for the reasons he says, but he knows rather more than me on this subject!

The one thing I disagree with is his description of the Coronavirus Act. It may not be the source of the lockdown or mask regulations, but there are a lot of nasty other things in it that need to go away very quickly, including:

- the added power for public health to detain 'suspected' infectious people
- the changes to mental health law (only need one doctor now to commit a person to a mental institution, rather than two, and the initial detention period is 5 days rather than 3)
- the changes to death certificiation (removing the safeguards put in post-Shipman)
- the change to make the NHS entirely immune to any malpractice charges resulting from treatment for Covid, suspected or otherwise

and a raft of other things. I'm not actually sure how much of that has been activated, but all the powers are there to be used, and they need to go away again.
 

BJames

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It's walking a very dangerous path pushing through these regulations without debate/approval. Sets a worrying precedent. Urgency is no excuse when parliament is sitting and taking away such big amounts of freedom without debate is very worrying.

Although I do think that there was a bit of backlash from a few backbenchers about the rule of six, more so than previous restrictions.
 
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