Is the RMT out of control?

[ComUtoR]

I hope this isn't too off-topic. When was that? I cannot imagine that happening in steam days, or indeed under BR.

I have heard so many stories. I'm stunned about the things that used to happen.

When I first started [redacted] which was eye-opening.

 

[BuryBlue]

Ok but what has the railway really gained by high wages and cherry picking, you've merely ended up with a whole host of people many with degrees etc who are vastly overqualified for many reasonably menial jobs done in most cases perfectly well and safely for a hundred plus of years by mostly unaccademic types

Yes, this change has not been initiated by the railways, however, but by years of governments trying to force the idea that ramming young people by any means possible into university was the best way to increase social mobility and remove a percieved skills shortage, despite many of these new students being better off in a vocational course, meaning that jobs that required A levels for example in the early 1990s requiring a 2:1 now. It's ridiculous.

It's only now that the industry and other engineering disciplines have realised the benefits of doing training in house.

Have to say I think there should be a guard on trains in some form but the striking, official or unofficial is just muddying the image of railway staff further and I personally think railway staff should not be allowed to strike as easily as they can now: It is a key service that is being provided and should be regarded as such.

 

[HH]

I hope this isn't too off-topic. When was that? I cannot imagine that happening in steam days, or indeed under BR.

LOL. You've led a sheltered life.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the guard is not there, what will YOU do to face down those difficult and threathning passengers?

What type of training do your colleagues receive to deal with such a situation? I am sure there are cases where the member of the train staff could well be assaulted, especially where a number of such unruly passengers are travelling together. Do you have any instructions on what stance to take in those more fraught situations when still in transit between stations that the BTP can be there to assist on the arrival of the train.

 

[XDM]

I hope this isn't too off-topic. When was that? I cannot imagine that happening in steam days, or indeed under BR.

I have a friend,X, who was allowed to drive by a BR driver regularly. The driver,sitting in the second man's seat even took pics which I have seen. X remembers picking up a troop train on the Richmond side at Clapham junction & driving it himself to Folkestone west,where there were army barracks. X is specially proud of cutting off power on the class 33 a few miles west of Ashford & coasting through the fast lines at Ashford at exactly the PSR there of 80mph with no need for a brake application. He also remembers driving freights from London to Sittingbourne with China clay for the paper works. X also recalls the driver telling him to duck down as they shot through the up slow on a 33 at 60 mph at Grove Park. The shed master was on the platform waiting to salute on of his drivers. To this day we don't know if it was worse to see an outsider in the drivers seat or no one at all! But nothing was said. BR staff were out of control then. Incidentally X did all that driving without any training & just his (detailed) knowledge as a great enthusiast. It was good for his driver friend's second man. He was sent home when X came into the cab & could do taxi driving.

 

[Bald Rick]

I haven't read all of this thread, so apologies if what follows has been said before. To answer the OP's question...

In my opinion the RMT isn't out of control. It has a leadership and a governance process, so is clearly in control of the decisions taken.

It is, however in dispute with a number of different rail companies at the same time. This may or may not be coincidence. Whether the leadership is being wise in being in several disputes concurrently remains to be seen.

 

[cin88]

I hope this isn't too off-topic. When was that? I cannot imagine that happening in steam days, or indeed under BR.

A person I know started at Manchester Victoria as a second man, drivers were regularly booking on after being in the pub since the end of their previous shift. Having to drive because the actual drivers were too drunk to do so themselves was a regular occurance.
It wasn't uncommon for drivers to swap seats with their second man and go to sleep either. Second men daring to sleep on the job often found that their (quoting loosely here) "malicious so and so" driver had turned on the hotplate and melted their shoes whilst they had their feet up on it.

 

[Flamingo]

What type of training do your colleagues receive to deal with such a situation? I am sure there are cases where the member of the train staff could well be assaulted, especially where a number of such unruly passengers are travelling together. Do you have any instructions on what stance to take in those more fraught situations when still in transit between stations that the BTP can be there to assist on the arrival of the train.

We do cover a lot of "defusing" type tactics. There is relatively frequent updates (partially because the instructions keep changing), but a lot of thought seems to go in to "conflict avoidance" training.

An overly simplistic reasing of the training would be to say we get told to "run away and hide", but it's a bit more nuanced than that. An example would be recognising if drugs, alcohol, illness or mental health issues may be involved and targeting the approach accordingly.

Sometimes, the sight or intervention of somebody in uniform is enough to de-escelate an arguement, or give an agrieved party a figure to vent at that may be sympathetic. Or indeed, distracting them away from the focus may help. Somebody not in uniform would not carry the same authority.

A specific example would be some of the arguements (often quite heated) over reserved seats. As Guard, I can check the reservations, maje a judgement, then potentially find seats for the loser of the arguement.

If more direct action is needed, although we are not expected to put ourselves in harms way, directing people to move to a different part of the train may be done. Before now, I have been the "Thin Blue (or green) Line" between two opposing combatants. Again, another passenger could be seen by one or other side as just another target in this situation. Or a drunk shouting down a phone (surprisingly common that one) may respond better to me than somebody in jeans & a t-shirt telling them to shut up.

If push comes to shove, we are trained in how to assess the situation, and call for appropriate assistance at a place that may not be apparent to the average passenger. Or if it really kicks off, how to organise an emergency evacuation (laterally or off the train completely) with all the communication and train / passenger protection issues required.

 

[carriageline]

I don't recall asking you (or any other superannuated signaller) to lick my arse. I would find it a very unpleasent experience.

I think it's time to put you back on ignore.

What's the signaller comment for?


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[Flamingo]

I haven't read all of this thread, so apologies if what follows has been said before. To answer the OP's question...

In my opinion the RMT isn't out of control. It has a leadership and a governance process, so is clearly in control of the decisions taken.

It is, however in dispute with a number of different rail companies at the same time. This may or may not be coincidence. Whether the leadership is being wise in being in several disputes concurrently remains to be seen.

I have to agree with you there. As Abraham Lincoln said to one of his cabinet who was upset over something the UK did during the unpleasentness between the States, "Lets just have one war at a time".

I do wonder if all these issues coming at once is a deliberate tactic by DfT to divide forces in front of it.
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What's the signaller comment for?


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Not intended as a dig at signallers. Just that ex-one who has never done my job, but insists he knows all about it (over several threads), as he was once a bobby.

 

[carriageline]

Aha, fair enough. I made a post a few above, and wondered if it was a slant at me!



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[Flamingo]

Aha, fair enough. I made a post a few above, and wondered if it was a slant at me!



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Hell no! I don't know enough about what goes on inside a signal-box to comment

 

[FordFocus]

26 ballots for action this year alone, how many has TSSA and ASLEF had on top? Maybe 40 ballots for action per year in one industry! Not really innocent are you?

I would have thought you would have known the reasons for that highdyke but you seemed to be busy in having a rant about the "militants" in the RMT and somehow tied Corbyn and the left into it as well...

ASLEF is the smallest union with around 19,000 members. They represent virtually one grade, drivers. It's a craft union so doesn't have many individual companies to deal with.
TSSA is about 22,000 members and represent a lot of managers grades along with some front line roles. The management grades rarely get into any formal industrial dispute because of the nature of their roles.
RMT is a union of over 80,000 members that represent anyone from cleaners, lorry drivers, warehouse staff, ferry staff, catering staff, train drivers, guards, signallers, overhead line staff, Upper Crust workers and station staff. There are hundreds of different companies they deal with many grades within that company. Makes sense that the RMT have more strikes than most others.

 

[QueensCurve]

Currently the RMT has industrial disputes and is planning/has taken/is planning to take industrial action across a growing number of TOCs including:

• Scotrail conductors
• VTEC on board staff
• GTR conductors
• GTR station staff
• Eurostar

Are they spoiling for a fight too easily with no aim to compromise or is it just that a number of incidents have come to head at the same time by chance.

I'm inclined to think that when the whole world but you is wrong, perhaps it's you that's wrong.
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...or is this a co-ordinated effort to make it look as if privatisation has failed with an aim to bringing back British Rail.

Interesting interviews about this on Radio 4's Today prog last Monday:-

The RMT have said that the Southern Rail strikes could have been cancelled if Govia Thameslink matched terms offered in a similar dispute with ScotRail which GTR claimed was "a complete red herring". Phil Verster is managing director of Scotrail Alliance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07mvxs4

 

[plastictaffy]

And so, another thread with a serious title descends into mud slinging and people airing their views on another forum member. For gawd's sake girls, put a manpon in, suck it up, and get on with your lives.

 

[R4_GRN]

Having suffered from the actions of militant tendency in the 1970's (I worked for STC in East Kilbride and lost the best job I ever had) I have seen them in action, boasting that they wanted to close the factory, they did. When asked what they were going to do now that the factory was closing they stated they were going to work for British Leyland and we all know what happened there.

I think people get what they vote for, nobody wanted the shop stewards job so militant tendancy took over, I have seen a colleague cry as he was the breadwinner and people voted for strike action. Really put me against unions in future, union officials who are using colleagues to pursue their agenda to their detriment. Think scargill and miners strike who benefitted from his strike? Not the miners who I have lots of time for it is a job I could not do.

So I am very cynical about "militant shop stewards" surely their remit is to do what is best for their members, how long will it take them to recover their losses in striking. I am in favour of unions protecting members when it is appropriate but feel that their actions at the moment are not in the best interests of the members, bear in mind I am not in the industry if my comments may not be relevant to this dispute.

 

[Harbornite]

I have to agree with you there. As Abraham Lincoln said to one of his cabinet who was upset over something the UK did during the unpleasentness between the States, "Lets just have one war at a time".

I know I'm a being a bit OT and pedantic, but I believe that comment was referring to the seizing of a Royal Navy ship by Union personnel, so they were to blame rather than the UK. Had things turned sour, we could well have seen the UK allying itself with the Confederates.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As for the railway unions, they have their place and I wouldn't say they are out of control. If I'm honest, the case for retaining guards isn't fantastic but I don't think the union response is particularly unjustified and it would be good if the relevant TOCs decided to avoid all this hassle by retaining guards. Sadly this probably won't happen.

 

[AlterEgo]

If I'm honest, the case for retaining guards isn't fantastic..../....it would be good if the relevant TOCs decided to avoid all this hassle by retaining guards.

You sound like every TOC manager ever.

 

[AntoniC]

Having read the thread I am struck by the fact that the posters Highdyke, XDM and Paul S demonstrate the same fanaticism opposing the legal RMT strike action, that the RMT and its members have shown for action.

Why is those posters POV more right than the RMT`s ?

Just a thought ....

 

[Harbornite]

You sound like every TOC manager ever.

If you say so.

Just because the case for retaining guards isn't fantastic doesn't mean they should be ditched. I don't think it's worth it, they aren't an anachronism and they still have their place.

 

[Harbornite]

Why is those posters POV more right than the RMT`s ?

Just a thought ....

Do you mean "why are their points of view more to the right than the RMT are to the left"?

 

[AlterEgo]

If you say so.

Just because the case for retaining guards isn't fantastic doesn't mean they should be ditched. I don't think it's worth it, they aren't an anachronism and they still have their place.

You're essentially accepting a poor value solution in the face of union pressure.

 

[FordFocus]

Having suffered from the actions of militant tendency in the 1970's (I worked for STC in East Kilbride and lost the best job I ever had) I have seen them in action, boasting that they wanted to close the factory, they did. When asked what they were going to do now that the factory was closing they stated they were going to work for British Leyland and we all know what happened there.

I think people get what they vote for, nobody wanted the shop stewards job so militant tendancy took over, I have seen a colleague cry as he was the breadwinner and people voted for strike action. Really put me against unions in future, union officials who are using colleagues to pursue their agenda to their detriment. Think scargill and miners strike who benefitted from his strike? Not the miners who I have lots of time for it is a job I could not do.

So I am very cynical about "militant shop stewards" surely their remit is to do what is best for their members, how long will it take them to recover their losses in striking. I am in favour of unions protecting members when it is appropriate but feel that their actions at the moment are not in the best interests of the members, bear in mind I am not in the industry if my comments may not be relevant to this dispute.

Times have changed a lot in unions since the 1970s and 80s. Long gone are the days of downing tools on the job because a shop steward has had a tiff with management. So are the days of walking out over nothing with a vote in the car park during a fag break. Unions are tied down to rules on balloting by an independent scrutineer. I'm fully for balloting like this, it's fair, anonymous and very democratic.

The company council reps that deal with us drivers at my TOC are very intelligent people and are actually very well educated. Always keen to explain things on what is going on with the company during branch meetings and always having the workforce interests as a priority. They don't go in demanding a 10% pay rise or we drop the handle, they are approachable and negotiable people who get the best deal.

The local reps in my experience don't pressure or dictate peoples views. They will listen and will try and sort out the smaller issues at the depot but they mainly deal in rosters and diagramming than company disputes.

I have come across certain union officers that shouldn't be in a job, sooner or later when they are trying to get support from branches for re-election they get told where to go.

 

[cf111]

I would only describe a union as "out of control" if its members' actions were outside of the law. None of the strikes called so far are unlawful and, in my view, workers should always have the right to withhold their labour after a legally conducted strike ballot.

 

[R4_GRN]

STC was Standard Telephones and Cables part of the ITT conglomerate, read book on "the sovereign state" to find out what American companies were like in the 70's and during World War Two. American generals ex ITT were partially responsible for the push into Germany to recover company assets. Originally ATT forced by American government to split into ITT and ATT, interesting reading!

I guess from additional posts that I am a tad out of date, well my experience is forty years ago !

 

[FordFocus]

I would only describe a union as "out of control" if its members' actions were outside of the law. None of the strikes called so far are unlawful and, in my view, workers should always have the right to withhold their labour after a legally conducted strike ballot.

Certainly the Southern and Eurostar ballots were very well supported by members. Not seen the VTEC and Scotrail ballot results.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

RMT ballot for VTEC

prepared to take strike action?
Total Votes Cast 1176
Number Voting ‘Yes’ 986
Number Voting ‘No’ 188
Spoilt Papers 2


industrial action short of strike?
Total Votes Cast 1176
Number Voting ‘Yes’ 1051
Number Voting ‘No’ 118
Spoilt Papers 7

 

[Carlisle]

They have gained well paid staff with really high wages. Kerching



That is rather insulting.

However; we do indeed have many university educated graduates in our role. What does that suggest ? That a university education is pretty meaning less and worth precisely **** all or maybe that there are many degrees that have little value (fee free to google that at your leisure)

Has there been too much placed on Degrees ? After all there are many routes into the employment market and jobs used to value experience over qualifications. A more vocational route has just as much value. Apprentice schemes are back and has a high uptake.

What does it say for those people with such a great education that they chose a path that leads to unemployment, debt, and less remuneration ?

I'm overqualified for my job and so are the many others in my role. You know what ? I love my job. The number of new entrants from outside the railway who had long careers in well paid, highly educated jobs, who left because they were unhappy is very surprising. Yes, many are here for the cash. (Thanks, ASLEF )

It also says a lot for the job market. Why does Job A pay well and Job B pay crap ? A fool would believe its because of the unions :roll:



Who says they are unacademic ? University isn't accessible to a large section of society. That doesn't mean they are unacademic.

I wasn't intending to criticise the current staff,who I realise in the vast majority of cases do a great job,I was simply asking if people thought the railway itself had actually gained much by employing what are clearly far better educated staff but having to pay considerably higher wages than it traditionally has done for most of its historical existence

 

[Flamingo]

Why is those posters POV more right than the RMT`s ?

Just a thought ....

Do you mean "right" as in "rightwing", or "right" as in "correct"?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Because lots of people can be guards and drivers and not many people can be Chief Executives. The drivers and guards salaries add-up to far more. Basic economics.

Network rail reduced the amount of signallers, without all this faff, because it was cheaper in the long run. The railway is not a job creation scheme.

The trains would still run without a chief executive though.