Is the RMT out of control?

[superkev]

Ignoring the rights ins wrongs of the current disputes I can't help thinking the RMT are hearding there members into a huge financial loss.
Military commanders don't usually make wars unless they think they've a good chance of winning and I suspect the RMT are sadly going to lose and possibly join the NUM in oblivion.
K

 

[Carlisle]

I am, I guess, classed as an intercity guard, and don't earn 40k!! My flat is a fartful less than 30k, but with commission, sundays and a bit of RDW, I earnt 34 and a bit last year. Virgin's Guards are on around 39 grand - but Sundays for them are compulsory, as is 12 hour movement on their roster - so if they're supposed to be on earlies one week, they can be moved up to 12 hours to put them on lates. They also have split restdays, where you might be off Wednesday, in thursday friday, off saturday, back in Sunday. My t's and c's are an awful lot better than theirs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below

ok cheers and very interesting, clearly my mistake there

 

[highdyke]

I think they are great, but then I get the humour, the John Lewis one was the best, couldn't stop laughing for ages.

http://www.cityam.com/247310/rmts-dangerous-strikes-cynical-ploy-pave-way-rail?

Behind this, however, there looks to be a clear political agenda. The RMT has never accepted railway privatisation and wants renationalisation. It sees a chance. Such a policy seems popular: in some polls up to 70 per cent of the public agree with it. Jeremy Corbyn and his neolithic cohorts in the Labour Party are already committed to taking railways back into state hands. With Brexit, we may see the end of the European directive which requires a split between track and services and entrenches the principle of open access running. So if disputes can be manipulated to discredit the train operating companies – and Southern’s hamfisted approach may have done this already – there is a real possibility that renationalisation in some form could happen, perhaps even under this government.

 

[moggie]

Just nobody who posts on this forum.

I'm done caring what people may think of my job and the implementation of DOO now, all I know is I work long and unsociable hours to provide for my family while at the same time trying to enjoy a job I once loved doing, now when I walk through a train smiling, trying to do my best for my passengers I can't help but ask myself how many of them feel the same way you do? How many of them wish to cast me aside as a worthless uneducated person who earns more than of someone of his station should.

I'm honestly ashamed to be a member this forum at times.

Monty, I often avoid reading this forum when topics of this nature crop up but I just caught sight of your post and felt compelled to respond. After working through the Thatcher years (all of them), privatisation and a lot of crap in between I can only echo your thoughts. My role has little public contact - fortunately. I have stayed the course because despite the actions of pretty much every Tory administration to undermine my role by starvation of work (yes really, don't believe the hype) I enjoy what I do and know it is important and vital to the rail industry to do it well. To do it half hearted and poorly is not an option either on a personal, professional or responsible level. I get through knowing this, and damnation to the envious, petty, ignorant pathetic rest who really don't give a toss. Many on here. But just think of this. How many other professions are also the butt of this poxy government? Teachers, Doctors, Scientists, Police, Armed forces.........the list goes on but they all seem to have similar gripes and mostly justified. For those who say if you can't take the heat etc. (don't worry I know I can, have and continue to do so) I say - grow up. Your envy at my position makes me stronger to continue. Declaring war on those who provide these vital services (and war is what this Tory government seemingly has declared yet again on public services) will only lead to worsening of them. Happy employees means motivated people. Redundancies means.........no service when you might just need it. Only the executives benefit from all this.

Good luck matey. I hope whatever the outcome that in time you are able to resume normal life and normal occupation. F'em all!

 

[highdyke]

Monty, I often avoid reading this forum when topics of this nature crop up but I just caught sight of your post and felt compelled to respond. After working through the Thatcher years (all of them), privatisation and a lot of crap in between I can only echo your thoughts. My role has little public contact - fortunately. I have stayed the course because despite the actions of pretty much every Tory administration to undermine my role by starvation of work (yes really, don't believe the hype) I enjoy what I do and know it is important and vital to the rail industry to do it well. To do it half hearted and poorly is not an option either on a personal, professional or responsible level. I get through knowing this, and damnation to the envious, petty, ignorant pathetic rest who really don't give a toss. Many on here. But just think of this. How many other professions are also the butt of this poxy government? Teachers, Doctors, Scientists, Police, Armed forces.........the list goes on but they all seem to have similar gripes and mostly justified. For those who say if you can't take the heat etc. (don't worry I know I can, have and continue to do so) I say - grow up. Your envy at my position makes me stronger to continue. Declaring war on those who provide these vital services (and war is what this Tory government seemingly has declared yet again on public services) will only lead to worsening of them. Happy employees means motivated people. Redundancies means.........no service when you might just need it. Only the executives benefit from all this.

Good luck matey. I hope whatever the outcome that in time you are able to resume normal life and normal occupation. F'em all!

Great, except nobody on this forum wants one person on a train, or said a guard's job is worthless or unskilled. Stop seeking to be offended. ONE person said *virtually* anyone could do it. Nobody else agrees. Most of the criticism is levelled at both GTR and the RMT for this ridiculous dispute which does more to downgrade the role in the public's eyes because people are sick and tired of it for something that is relatively simple and has happened for 30 years being implemented. Nobody has argued for pay cuts only productivity. The whole thing hinges around whether there is role into the future. I even went out my way to say it could be justified without door operation. For which I was slapped down, so who's really downgrading the role?

Keep up the good work Monty you are much appreciated.

 

[DT611]

No they are just trying to protect their company. The RMT keep playing the safety card but where's the stats to back that up. The obvious solution here is to speed up the introduction of driverless trains to the UK (without the fake driver like LUL have). It's proven safe throughout the world

They're will be no driverless trains on the heavy rail network in our lifetime or probably at all.

Scarcity of guards? Here's me thinking they are being made redundant.

You know exactly what the poster meant.

Because lots of people can be guards and drivers and not many people can be Chief Executives. The drivers and guards salaries add-up to far more. Basic economics.

Network rail reduced the amount of signallers, without all this faff, because it was cheaper in the long run. The railway is not a job creation scheme.

Nobody said it was. You are the only one who believes that people believe the railway is a job creation scheme. Nobody else believes the railway is a job creation scheme.

Almost anyone can be a guard,which is why they are vastly overpaid. They should be on the average wage but guards' pay has been driven up by BR & TOC fear of industrial action. So the employers,until Charles Horton, have given in year after year & paid guards more,& asked them to do less. He is a hero.
Not everyone can be a driver,the assessment tests are tough & the job requires good sense & a cool head. So they deserve much more than a guard. Capable guards can & do become drivers. Less capable redundant guards become cleaners.
Hardly anybody wants to be a CEO because of the insults they get from forum members here & basketcase Union officials. Would anyone reading this want to take the relentless cruel abuse that a few posters pile on Charles day in & day out.

Possibly anyone can apply to be a gard but only some will be good enough to get the job. they aren't vastly over paid, and being a train gard isn't nor should be an average wage job. Negotiating and coming to a deal that suits both sides (the best way to solve any dispute) isn't giving in, it's simple common sense for both sides. If Charles Horton is your idea of a hero then god help you. You think few want to be a CEO because of people's opinion on a forum? Come on now, you are being ridiculous.

 

[highdyke]

You know exactly what the poster meant..

I do, just to confirm it was sarcasm.

Nobody else believes the railway is a job creation scheme.

They may not directly, but the some people would question why change was required when the economics or technology altered. All depends how things are sold to them by the Unions or managers, Dihydrogen monoxide sounds well worth protesting against.

 

[DT611]

They may not directly, but the some people would question why change was required when the economics or technology altered.

Nobody on this or any of the threads discussing do or unions believe the railway is a job creation scheme. You are the only one believeing that they believe it is . Technology sometimes isn't the answer to everything, humans and technology working together however.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Just nobody who posts on this forum.

I have to say I'm absolutely astonished and aghast to read some of the things posted on this forum. Never in my life have I been ever been made to feel so degraded and worthless because of the job I do and what people here may think of it. To say 'anyone can be a guard' (a complete falsehood by the way) and that I should be earning the average wage because of it is outrageous, while I have no desire to go into the sordid details of my financial affairs but despite my 'inflated wages' it is often difficult to make ends meet. And when when you hear the likes of that utter pillock Wilkinson going on about staff not being able to afford to go on strike because we have flash cars and our maxed out credit cards it makes my blood boil. We should come down from his ivory tower and see how I live, in a age of playstations and artisan coffee a single kinder surprise egg is considered to be a big treat for my daughter!

I'm done caring what people may think of my job and the implementation of DOO now, all I know is I work long and unsociable hours to provide for my family while at the same time trying to enjoy a job I once loved doing, now when I walk through a train smiling, trying to do my best for my passengers I can't help but ask myself how many of them feel the same way you do? How many of them wish to cast me aside as a worthless uneducated person who earns more than of someone of his station should.

I'm honestly ashamed to be a member this forum at times.

For a forum of Railway Enthusiasts a small proportion do seem to despise Railway Staff, when the majority like ourselves just do our best to provide the best level of service we can. I just remind myself that it is a minority who treat us with utter contempt and not the majority. Sadly the Mods are limited in what they can do as even though some of things are down right insulting to Railway Staff an opinion is just that..an opinion.

 

[andyb2706]

How much financial damage to the good running of companies in the area of the Southern strike in a period of five working days do you envisage would have been borne?

If an annual payment of £2.16 million is divided by 365, then multiplied by 5, you will see how much this is for a five day period, so you can make the necessary comparison.

I have done.....it is £29,589.04. Now if to the quote in post 53 that is a hell of a lot of teeth (and reminds me of a Terry Pratchett novel) and a very bumpy pillow in the morning as to the 29,589 pound coins and not forgetting the 2 2p's......does the tooth fairy carry copper?

But it is an obscene figure whether you look at it on a daily, weekly or yearly figure for a company that even without the strike action has bad press due to punctuality and reliability. I have no problem this sort of bonus being paid if the company is performing well and supplying a good service but even before the current disputes there were questions being raised about them.

Or is this already a reduced figure taking the current issues into account?

And my final thought is the gentleman concerned doing a 5 day week? you hear a lot of chairmans do not, then the figures increase greatly!!

 

[carriageline]

Just nobody who posts on this forum.



I have to say I'm absolutely astonished and aghast to read some of the things posted on this forum. Never in my life have I been ever been made to feel so degraded and worthless because of the job I do and what people here may think of it. To say 'anyone can be a guard' (a complete falsehood by the way) and that I should be earning the average wage because of it is outrageous, while I have no desire to go into the sordid details of my financial affairs but despite my 'inflated wages' it is often difficult to make ends meet. And when when you hear the likes of that utter pillock Wilkinson going on about staff not being able to afford to go on strike because we have flash cars and our maxed out credit cards it makes my blood boil. We should come down from his ivory tower and see how I live, in a age of playstations and artisan coffee a single kinder surprise egg is considered to be a big treat for my daughter!



I'm done caring what people may think of my job and the implementation of DOO now, all I know is I work long and unsociable hours to provide for my family while at the same time trying to enjoy a job I once loved doing, now when I walk through a train smiling, trying to do my best for my passengers I can't help but ask myself how many of them feel the same way you do? How many of them wish to cast me aside as a worthless uneducated person who earns more than of someone of his station should.



I'm honestly ashamed to be a member this forum at times.

You've smashed that nail on the head. The attitude of some is frankly disgusting.

Unfortunately, it just seems to be jealousy and bitterness. I've been told by plenty of people, your overpaid, do too little, blahblahblab.

Of course, there are the overtime warriors who do every RD the gods can give, but there's also the others who only do their booked turns and enjoy the time off. Both ends of that spectrum are vastly different, and both can't be tarred with the same brush (like saying all drivers earn 85 just because one driver managed to just touch 85k one year!!)

Truth is, I wouldn't do this job for the money people EXPECT us to be on. Hours too unsociable, shift work will probably kill me, far too much responsibility, far too much knowledge and understanding to remember. Rather work in Tescos and have no issues.

Would you want to pay some £6.95 an hour, who can, from a click of a button, cause hundreds of hours of delay, by mistake,incompetence whatever. Probably not. If company's offer a reasonable wage, you will have a lot more interest from applicants (thus companies can "cherry pick"), people enjoy their job more, and are more will to help out.

Keep up the good work brother.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fandroid]

The Southern strike has been suspended. It only goes to show that the headlines we all read (passengers and rail workers alike), are only a very crude reflection of what is actually going on behind the scenes.

Privatisation has probably strengthened the role of the unions for most TOC workers. Whereas previously BR was their employer and looked likely to remain so, these days there is going to be real uncertainty every time a franchise comes up for renewal, and even more uncertainty if it actually changes hands. In those circumstances a strong union is a very comforting thing to have around.

 

[Geezertronic]

As someone who has never worked in the Public Sector, never been a Union Member, and whose job has been Offshored on a couple of occasions, is there anything to stop TOCs recruiting but with a contractual clause to NOT become a member of a Union?

Genuine question...

 

[Bromley boy]

As someone who has never worked in the Public Sector, never been a Union Member, and whose job has been Offshored on a couple of occasions, is there anything to stop TOCs recruiting but with a contractual clause to NOT become a member of a Union?

Genuine question...

In a word, no. From a quick google search:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/section/145A (etc.)

Essentially it is unlawful for an employer to prevent/discourage you from joining or offer an inducement not to join.

Of course whether the employer recognised the union, engages with them etc. and whether the union is any good, is a different matter. My experience of working in the private sector was that very few people belonged to a union and very few would even have considered joining.

 

[Tetchytyke]

is there anything to stop TOCs recruiting but with a contractual clause to NOT become a member of a Union?

No, that is unlawful.

Employers can also be compelled to recognise a union where the majority of staff wish for it to be the case. In such a unionised industry as the railways, I would expect any attempt to not recognise a union would result in a statutory application PDQ.

 

[Carlisle]

Would you want to pay some £6.95 an hour, who can, from a click of a button, cause hundreds of hours of delay, by mistake,incompetence whatever. Probably not. If company's offer a reasonable wage, you will have a lot more interest from applicants (thus companies can "cherry pick"), people enjoy their job more, and are more will to help out.
k

Ok but what has the railway really gained by high wages and cherry picking, you've merely ended up with a whole host of people many with degrees etc who are vastly overqualified for many reasonably menial jobs done in most cases perfectly well and safely for a hundred plus of years by mostly unaccademic types

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok but what has the railway really gained by high wages and cherry picking, you've merely ended up with a whole host of people many with degrees etc who are vastly overqualified for many reasonably menial jobs done in most cases perfectly well and safely for a hundred plus of years by mostly unaccademic types

It's not as if there aren't hundreds of applicant for every job either.

The main reasons that wages are high are because:

a) the union is well organised and mobilises its membership efficiently
b) strikes stop the job
c) many changes to the job are met with a rise in pay or conditions
d) franchising; TOCs happy to take a short term hit with pay rises and deal with it "some other time"

I have no reason to be jealous of a guard's conditions or salary. One of the problems (which RMT hasn't addressed or ever wanted to consider) is that the railway leaves its employees with niche skills. There's limited scope as a guard to gain academic qualifications to broaden your appeal as an employee off the railway (that would command the same salary!). This isn't good and frankly the RMT need to take pelters for this as much as the TOCs. My dad was a Tube guard, displaced under DOO in the 80s; he then became a driver and subsequently a depot manager (he was also an ASLEF organiser!). Had he been made redundant, I struggle to imagine what other job he'd have gone into that paid £55k basic, you know...

Staff are fighting not just for their jobs but their long term future. They know they won't get paid the same outside the railway.

Posters who accuse others of being anti-staff are looking through the wrong end of the telescope. I understand that my posts aren't likely to be popular with operational staff and I don't treat my contributions as a popularity contest. But I come from strong railway stock, I've worked for two TOCs in the control room and I wasn't born yesterday. I just call it as I see it.

 

[Flamingo]

You really know nothing dont you? and a nasty piece of work to boot, such a pity i dont see you anymore.

And your comments about this forum upsetting the likes of horton and co, is truly laughable if the fact you think its serious. I even doubt Horton knows about this forum its for the commoner like me and YOU!

You know that gob****e? What job does he actually do?

 

[ComUtoR]

Ok but what has the railway really gained by high wages and cherry picking,

They have gained well paid staff with really high wages. Kerching

you've merely ended up with a whole host of people many with degrees etc who are vastly overqualified for many reasonably menial jobs

That is rather insulting.

However; we do indeed have many university educated graduates in our role. What does that suggest ? That a university education is pretty meaning less and worth precisely **** all or maybe that there are many degrees that have little value (fee free to google that at your leisure)

Has there been too much placed on Degrees ? After all there are many routes into the employment market and jobs used to value experience over qualifications. A more vocational route has just as much value. Apprentice schemes are back and has a high uptake.

What does it say for those people with such a great education that they chose a path that leads to unemployment, debt, and less remuneration ?

I'm overqualified for my job and so are the many others in my role. You know what ? I love my job. The number of new entrants from outside the railway who had long careers in well paid, highly educated jobs, who left because they were unhappy is very surprising. Yes, many are here for the cash. (Thanks, ASLEF )

It also says a lot for the job market. Why does Job A pay well and Job B pay crap ? A fool would believe its because of the unions :roll:

done in most cases perfectly well and safely for a hundred plus of years by mostly unaccademic types

Who says they are unacademic ? University isn't accessible to a large section of society. That doesn't mean they are unacademic.

 

[Flamingo]

Just nobody who posts on this forum.

I have to say I'm absolutely astonished and aghast to read some of the things posted on this forum. Never in my life have I been ever been made to feel so degraded and worthless because of the job I do and what people here may think of it. To say 'anyone can be a guard' (a complete falsehood by the way) and that I should be earning the average wage because of it is outrageous, while I have no desire to go into the sordid details of my financial affairs but despite my 'inflated wages' it is often difficult to make ends meet. And when when you hear the likes of that utter pillock Wilkinson going on about staff not being able to afford to go on strike because we have flash cars and our maxed out credit cards it makes my blood boil. We should come down from his ivory tower and see how I live, in a age of playstations and artisan coffee a single kinder surprise egg is considered to be a big treat for my daughter!

I'm done caring what people may think of my job and the implementation of DOO now, all I know is I work long and unsociable hours to provide for my family while at the same time trying to enjoy a job I once loved doing, now when I walk through a train smiling, trying to do my best for my passengers I can't help but ask myself how many of them feel the same way you do? How many of them wish to cast me aside as a worthless uneducated person who earns more than of someone of his station should.

I'm honestly ashamed to be a member this forum at times.

Excelent post, and sums up the current situation.

I also wonder why I try to do my best in a job that appears to be held in such universal contempt, or bother to contribute to a forum with such a high proportion of members who hold such a low opinion of both my colleagues and myself.

Part of the challenge of the Guards grade is to try and do the job despite the number of ignorant, stupid, unpleasant people there are, both in real life, and on the internet. We must deal with them. We can't always change them, or their behaviour, but we can not let it go unchallenged. Which is part of the reason they hate us, as they can't abide thinking that there is somebody in any aspect of their life who dares to contradict them, being it telling them to get their feet off the seat, head in out of the window, pay for their travel, or that their opinion is wrong.

After all, if sensible, reasonable people allow the loud and boorish to get their way just because they shout louder, those seeking help will only have the loud and stupid to look to.

 

[Domeyhead]

Excelent post, and sums up the current situation.
I also wonder why I try to do my best in a job that appears to be held in such universal contempt, or bother to contribute to a forum with such a high proportion of members who hold such a low opinion of both my colleagues and myself.
.

I am not aware of anyone who holds rail staff in contempt for doing their job, but there a lot of passengers who hold them in contempt when they choose not to do it, whether from official industrial action, Work to Rule or "sickies". Having said that, rank and file staff are still held in higher regard than union officials who cite the wellbeing of passengers as their concern when that is clearly not true . I am often impressed at the level of patience and cheerfulness maintained by guards and revenue protection staff in the face of difficult and even threatening passengers, so much so I would class it as a skill. But as an ordinary commuter passenger I am clear that I do not want the RMT or any other union to cite my interests as a passenger as their concern. Passengers have their own bodies, both official and otherwise to safeguard their interests and generally do not want or need the RMT with its own conflicts and agenda to consider them. I would prefer it if union officials did not mention passenger interests at all rather than enacting this farce of concern for passenger safety purely for the benefit of the cameras.

 

[Flamingo]

I am not aware of anyone who holds rail staff in contempt for doing their job, but there a lot of passengers who hold them in contempt when they choose not to do it, whether from official industrial action, Work to Rule or "sickies". Having said that, rank and file staff are still held in higher regard than union officials who cite the wellbeing of passengers as their concern when that is clearly not true . I am often impressed at the level of patience and cheerfulness maintained by guards and revenue protection staff in the face of difficult and even threatening passengers, so much so I would class it as a skill. But as an ordinary commuter passenger I am clear that I do not want the RMT or any other union to cite my interests as a passenger as their concern. Passengers have their own bodies, both official and otherwise to safeguard their interests and generally do not want or need the RMT with its own conflicts and agenda to consider them. I would prefer it if union officials did not mention passenger interests at all rather than enacting this farce of concern for passenger safety purely for the benefit of the cameras.

And thus is my point proved. Once the Train Guard is a cheery chappy getting everybody home, he (or she) is salt of the earth. Once we forget our position as servants of the travelling public (as I have seen it put in this forum), how dare we!

When the guard is not there, what will YOU do to face down those difficult and threathning passengers? Because it sure as hell won't be the RMT's problem any more - it'll be yours. The DfT will continue to take as much notice of the "Passenger Bodies" as they already do, i.e. none.

 

[Wolfie]

I am not aware of anyone who holds rail staff in contempt for doing their job, but there a lot of passengers who hold them in contempt when they choose not to do it, whether from official industrial action, Work to Rule or "sickies". Having said that, rank and file staff are still held in higher regard than union officials who cite the wellbeing of passengers as their concern when that is clearly not true . I am often impressed at the level of patience and cheerfulness maintained by guards and revenue protection staff in the face of difficult and even threatening passengers, so much so I would class it as a skill. But as an ordinary commuter passenger I am clear that I do not want the RMT or any other union to cite my interests as a passenger as their concern. Passengers have their own bodies, both official and otherwise to safeguard their interests and generally do not want or need the RMT with its own conflicts and agenda to consider them. I would prefer it if union officials did not mention passenger interests at all rather than enacting this farce of concern for passenger safety purely for the benefit of the cameras.

You are perfectly entitled to your personal views. I as a passenger would really prefer it if you didn't express that personal view in such a way as to apparently presume to talk for me. The bodies set up to "represent" passengers are, quite deliberately through their mandate, weak and ineffectual and none, as far as I am aware, has any seafety mandate whatsoever.

As a passenger who doesn't undertand the safety implications of certain disputes I welcome the TU (and informed member so in this forum) highlighting these to me rather than just taking the word of money-focussed or politically directed management.

I am sure that the TUs do have genuine concerns about passenger safety albeit, as is inevitable given the raison d'etre for their existence, their primary concern is the jobs, terms and conditions of their members.

 

[highdyke]

Excelent post, and sums up the current situation.

I also wonder why I try to do my best in a job that appears to be held in such universal contempt, or bother to contribute to a forum with such a high proportion of members who hold such a low opinion of both my colleagues and myself.

Part of the challenge of the Guards grade is to try and do the job despite the number of ignorant, stupid, unpleasant people there are, both in real life, and on the internet. We must deal with them. We can't always change them, or their behaviour, but we can not let it go unchallenged. Which is part of the reason they hate us, as they can't abide thinking that there is somebody in any aspect of their life who dares to contradict them, being it telling them to get their feet off the seat, head in out of the window, pay for their travel, or that their opinion is wrong.

After all, if sensible, reasonable people allow the loud and boorish to get their way just because they shout louder, those seeking help will only have the loud and stupid to look to.

Pot, Kettle.

Opinions my dear friend, we live in a democracy. I don't hold a low opinion of rail staff, far from it. I disagree with the approach of some of them, the far left on this forum, those with vested interests.

Have you ever stopped to consider some people may have these opinions as they love the railways? They don't want to consider it driven into a cul-de-sac by vested interests, say the RMT pushing a nationalised agenda for their own ends, for business as usual? The Unions will bankrupt the industry and Corbyn the country, but far lefties can't see it. It's all class struggle and unity against anyone that disagrees.

We know we have same 'usual suspects', real militant lefties on this forum. I don't pay the subs and I don't have to agree. I'm prepared to listen, but I'm not licking your arses or your union. Don't like it? Did dums.

The RMT that voted for this course of harassment against all involved, you made your bed, you lie in it.

26 ballots for action this year alone, how many has TSSA and ASLEF had on top? Maybe 40 ballots for action per year in one industry! Not really innocent are you?

50 people on Eurostar, a couple of hundred at VTEC and Scotrail, 300 odd on Southern all holding the country to ransom. And you talk about democracy?

Personally I can't stop laughing, especially considering against the attacks on enthusiasts, passengers, and me personally we all have to endure day-in and day out.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't recall asking you (or any other superannuated signaller) to lick my arse. I would find it a very unpleasent experience.

I think it's time to put you back on ignore.

 

[highdyke]

I don't recall asking you (or any other superannuated signaller) to lick my arse. I would find it a very unpleasent experience.

Well get off your high horse then, because I'm not going to. It's a discussion forum mate, don't like the heat get out of the kitchen.

 

[Flamingo]

Well get off your high horse then, because I'm not going to. It's a discussion forum mate, don't like the heat get out of the kitchen.

I'm not your mate. I'm choosy about my friends.

If you don't like what I post, put me on ignore.

 

[highdyke]

I'm not your mate. I'm choosy about my friends.

If you don't like what I post, put me on ignore.

I wouldn't do that, because I'm happy to listen to you. I just object to the notion if I (we?) don't completely agree I hate rail stuff or are somehow an ignorant or bad person.

The whole root cause of this situation is monopolies. A monopoly of capital and cartel of labour. We need more open access, what remains should run on concessions, like the bus industry. With a ‘rail tax’ to fund loss making services. There should be no monopolies, with anyone allowed to bid, whether mutual, public or private.

If there are monopolies, there should be very strict conditions, to protect passengers, companies and workers. Third party binding arbitration like the police.

Training needs to be third party to protect against cheap skate TOCs and open up the market, costs should be deducted from wages once a year has passed.

 

[BestWestern]

Ok but what has the railway really gained by high wages and cherry picking, you've merely ended up with a whole host of people many with degrees etc who are vastly overqualified for many reasonably menial jobs done in most cases perfectly well and safely for a hundred plus of years by mostly unaccademic types

You fail to grasp that the culture within the railway has changed massively since privatisation. Back in BR days, even towards the end, there was largely an 'anything goes' attitude. Things that are today taken as standard stuff, such as working hours limits, drugs & alcohol policies, staff discipline and so on, are all fairly recent aspects of the railway. And prior to their introduction, their absence caused many incicdents, accidents and deaths. Train drivers would drink, people who weren't drivers would drive, anybody who wanted extra cash would do all the hours they possibly could. That all needed to be swept away, and with good reason. With this massive step change in professionalism came better pay. The new private custodians of the railways wanted their staff to appreciate that they were now working in an entirely different world, and part of that was moving pay and salaries from being crap, to being that of a professional industry. Whether 'outsiders' appreciate it - or like it - or not, frontline operational staff became considered as professionals, doing an important job worthy of a decent salary. And the pay back in the 'good old days' was, indeed, crap. Having said that, another reason for that being replaced with a good salary was the franchisees not wanting the BR pay structure of basic plus a plethora of complicated add-ons. The new guard wanted maximum productivity in return for a standard pay packet across the board, and generally speaking that is what they got.

That the government now wants to start swinging the axe does not undermine the reasons for the professional cultures we now see on the railway, both in terms of safety and pay.

 

[HowardGWR]

.............. people who weren't drivers would drive,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. When was that? I cannot imagine that happening in steam days, or indeed under BR.