Is it time to bring back steam again?

[SussexSpotter]

We clearly saw the effects of the snow on electric trains, so should we build new steam locos like that of Tornado and haul the trains that way? Diesel is no match on steam but is better than electric as you can go anywhere without hassel so maybe an electro/steam train could work?

Take a look at this video, just shows how well we coped back in the steam days unlike now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl4pJwcE7JI

Should we use Steam haulage during the Winter months?

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p28468678.html

Have a think!

 

[90019]

Is it time to bring back steam again?

Hmm...
No.

 

[asylumxl]

No. Just no.

 

[90019]

Would be much cheaper to run because the cost of electricity is too high and is to rise again.

I seriously doubt it's cheaper to run a kettle than an electric loco.
For one thing, the maintainance will likely be much more expensive, then you have to install all the infrastructure for it again.

Diesel is no match on steam

What makes you think that?

 

[NSEFAN]

What sort of efficiency do coal-powered engines run at, compared to modern traction? I recall it being some stupidly low value.

For a couple of weeks every year, it's not worth it. Of course, there's nothing to stop TOCs hiring existing kettles for standby duties

 

[90019]

What sort of efficiency do coal-powered engines run at, compared to modern traction? I recall it being some stupidly low value.

That's something I've wondered about before, steam locos must be horribly inefficient, simply because of how they're powered.

 

[Daimler]

I wish I could say yes...

But no, I'm afraid.

 

[ainsworth74]

1 word manpower. Steam will never manage to compete with diesel or electric because it simply needs far more people to operate it. You need people to fire, drive, clean, fuel and dispose of it at the end of the day. With diesel you walk up to it, push a button and away you go.

 

[Darandio]

Would be much cheaper to run because the cost of electricity is too high and is to rise again.

And how do you think nearly half of this electricity is generated? Through coal fired power stations. It just isn't an argument for cost when the majority of coal is imported at high cost to start with.

I can understand the weather stirring emotion and the whole Tornado rescue incident last year being extremely romantic but is it a viable propositon?

Nope.

 

[Daimler]

What sort of efficiency do coal-powered engines run at, compared to modern traction? I recall it being some stupidly low value

I remember reading - some time back - an extensive comparison between different forms of traction, but unfortunately I can't remember the exact figures. Suffice to say, steam was significantly less efficient than other forms of traction (and I seem to remember that even electric traction struggles to beat 40% efficiency).

The 5AT project website has some interesting figures for steam locomotive efficiency, which would appear to suggest that a standard steam locomotive such as those preserved today would struggle to achieve as much as 8% efficiency, since this is the figure quoted for the advanced (for steam as a mode of traction in general) Chinese 'QJ' class.

However, those involved in the 5AT project seem to think that a 'modern' steam locomotive (as opposed to Tornado, which in the most part is a replica of a 1940s steam locomotive) might be able to achieve as high as 16% efficiency - which might seem very poor, but is already a tremendous improvement!

 

[tbtc]

Good luck finding space for turntables at every large terminii

 

[SussexSpotter]

I remember reading - some time back - an extensive comparison between different forms of traction, but unfortunately I can't remember the exact figures. Suffice to say, steam was significantly less efficient than other forms of traction (and I seem to remember that even electric traction struggles to beat 40% efficiency).

The 5AT project website has some interesting figures for steam locomotive efficiency, which would appear to suggest that a standard steam locomotive such as those preserved today would struggle to achieve as much as 8% efficiency, since this is the figure quoted for the advanced (for steam as a mode of traction in general) Chinese 'QJ' class.

However, the those involved in the 5AT project seem to think that a 'modern' steam locomotive (as opposed to Tornado, which in the most part is a replica of a 1940s steam locomotive) might be able to achieve as high as 16% efficiency - which might seem very poor, but is already a tremendous improvement!

There must be some way to make them more efficiant?

 

[SussexSpotter]

Good luck finding space for turntables at every large terminii

Why use a turntable when you can have top 'n' tail steam?

 

[Daimler]

Why use a turntable when you can have top 'n' tail steam?

If we're talking steam engines as in those used pre-1968, that would require four crew members simply to drive each train! hock:

 

[Darandio]

Why use a turntable when you can have top 'n' tail steam?

So not only do a new build, you have to double it?

Effectively just destroyed your own argument.

 

[SussexSpotter]

So not only do a new build, you have to double it?

Effectively just destroyed your own argument.

No what I mean is, one loco gets detatched at the station terminal whilst the other one waiting in the siding attaches to the rear to form the return (and vice versa). No turning involved, and always one loco running up and down the mainline.

 

[mumrar]

This is one of the best wind up threads surely, electric may have struggled but precisely because of efficiency, steam was replaced with diesel and then electric (sometimes straight to electric). Steam was deemed outdated when we had the infrastructure and a massive domestic coal industry. So now, with now coaling facilities, now watering facilities or troughs and having to import coal from overseas, it is just a terrible, terrible idea.

 

[Lampshade]

For a couple of weeks every year, it's not worth it. Of course, there's nothing to stop TOCs hiring existing kettles for standby duties

I'd like to see which situation leads to Flying Scotsman substituting for a HST on the 10:00 from Kings Cross

 

[Darandio]

No what I mean is, one loco gets detatched at the station terminal whilst the other one waiting in the siding attaches to the rear to form the return (and vice versa). No turning involved, and always one loco running up and down the mainline.

When the HST was designed, and all other MU stock with a cab at each end, there was a reason and that was to eliminate the problem you have just stated above.

 

[SussexSpotter]

This is one of the best wind up threads surely, electric may have struggled but precisely because of efficiency, steam was replaced with diesel and then electric (sometimes straight to electric). Steam was deemed outdated when we had the infrastructure and a massive domestic coal industry. So now, with now coaling facilities, now watering facilities or troughs and having to import coal from overseas, it is just a terrible, terrible idea.

It's not a wind up thread, it's in response the snowfall we have had. And if we continue to get servere winters here in the UK then steam is the right answer for the railways. If you watch that video you will see how well we coped back in the 1960's, the railways ran, the fares were cheaper and everyone on the railway was a lot happier. Now look what happens when we get ice or snow, the railway grinds to a hault so electric and in some cases diesel is a failure. People miss out on their trips to work and it's just a shambles!

Also look how people's attitudes towards the railways would change if steam made a comeback?

Steam should be used during the Winter months when we have snowfall like this, this would save on running costs. The steam power also generates electricity to power the carriages, the loco's should be specially addapted to haul electric trains during servere weather conditions, then the electric trains run on their own power during the Summer.

 

[jopsuk]

How many more people would be attracted? We have in several parts of the country a network that is creaking full to capacity- capacity that would severely reduced with slow accelerating, slow braking, frequently refuelled steam engines taking up valuable platform space.

 

[SussexSpotter]

How many more people would be attracted? We have in several parts of the country a network that is creaking full to capacity- capacity that would severely reduced with slow accelerating, slow braking, frequently refuelled steam engines taking up valuable platform space.

You hear so many people complaining about the railways these days!

 

[tbtc]

No what I mean is, one loco gets detatched at the station terminal whilst the other one waiting in the siding attaches to the rear to form the return (and vice versa). No turning involved, and always one loco running up and down the mainline.

At the moment, there are two movements when a train reaches a terminus.

1.Train comes into station

2. Train leaves station

You'd have:

1. Train comes into station. Engine detaches (presuming there's space at the front of the platform for the engine?)

2...Second engine leaves siding and couples itself to train

3. Second engine pulls train away

4. First engine leaves platform and goes and turns itself round at a turntable

5. First engine then goes to a nearby siding

So, we'd need two steam engines, we'd need additional platform space, we'd need "middle roads", we'd need several additional paths in the "throat" of each station, we'd need turntables (which would be intensively used at major terminii)...

 

[jopsuk]

Also, it's a pity we can't retrospectively collect the punctuality and reliability figures that we collect today for those times- I think you'll find things weren't really as good as your rose-tinted spectacles see them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You hear so many people complaining about the railways these days!

There's a lot more people using the railways than ever before, and it is easier for those who are unhappy to make themselves more widely heard. And I dare say people are more likley to complain over more minor issues- our expected standards are often higher, and those in charge actually more likely to listen.

Many, many more people commute and over much longer distances than in the 60s.

 

[tbtc]

Also, it's a pity we can't retrospectively collect the punctuality and reliability figures that we collect today for those times- I think you'll find things weren't really as good as your rose-tinted spectacles see them

Good point.

Everything was better back then, apparently, and there were no problems...

The reality is that BR only survived by "robbing Peter to pay Paul" and scraping along. The punctuality/ reliability stats for some steam/ diesel engines would have looked horrific compared to the bland/ efficient trains we now have.

I'd love to see the "miles per failure" stats for some old diesels, mind!

 

[SussexSpotter]

Also, it's a pity we can't retrospectively collect the punctuality and reliability figures that we collect today for those times- I think you'll find things weren't really as good as your rose-tinted spectacles see them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There's a lot more people using the railways than ever before, and it is easier for those who are unhappy to make themselves more widely heard. And I dare say people are more likley to complain over more minor issues- our expected standards are often higher, and those in charge actually more likely to listen.

Many, many more people commute and over much longer distances than in the 60s.

Since when (back in the steam days) did you ever see people having to sleep overnight on a train because it broken down in the snow? There were 2 inccidents recently, one at Three Bridges in Crawley and another somewhere in Kent (Sevenoaks I think). There we are!

If we can build (or refurbish) a whole fleet of steam locomotives and paint them in the liveries of the train opperators for use during winter, then we have our answer to the weather problem and conductor rail freezing over.

Im not saying get rid of electric, im saying use steam power during times when electric isn't viable. Attatching a steam loco to a 12 car 377 on a Brighton - London trip would solve the problem overnight, and could reach near enough the same speed as well Think of the money it would save the rail company's in the long run!

As quoted by another forum member, most electricity comes from coal fired power stations anyway.

 

[class156]

It's not a wind up thread, it's in response the snowfall we have had. And if we continue to get servere winters here in the UK then steam is the right answer for the railways. If you watch that video you will see how well we coped back in the 1960's, the railways ran, the fares were cheaper and everyone on the railway was a lot happier. Now look what happens when we get ice or snow, the railway grinds to a hault so electric and in some cases diesel is a failure. People miss out on their trips to work and it's just a shambles!

Also look how people's attitudes towards the railways would change if steam made a comeback?

Steam should be used during the Winter months when we have snowfall like this, this would save on running costs. The steam power also generates electricity to power the carriages, the loco's should be specially addapted to haul electric trains during servere weather conditions, then the electric trains run on their own power during the Summer.

The railway grinds to a halt because most pointwork is now remotly operated by a signal box miles away which sends signals to point motors which incedently freeze in the winter which doesn't allow the points to move. This didn't happen in steam days because there was signalmen at every junction mechanicly operating the points etc. I'm not saying that is the sole reason the railway grinds to a halt but is the main contributing factor.

 

[SussexSpotter]

They have heated point motors/points on most routes now. It's the condutor rail freezing over which is the problem!

Now this is what im talking about:

http://fictitiousliveries.fotopic.net/p28468678.html

In Southern livery as well.

 

[90019]

If we can build (or refurbish) a whole fleet of steam locomotives and paint them in the liveries of the train opperators for use during winter, then we have our answer to the weather problem and conductor rail freezing over.

The cost would be huge for what would make little difference overall.

Im not saying get rid of electric, im saying use steam power during times when electric isn't viable.

Are you prepared to pay higher fares to pay for them to be sitting unused most of the time?

Think of the money it would save the rail company's in the long run!

It wouldn't save anything. It would cost more, as you're having to pay to lease, run, maintain and crew a fleet of outdated locomotives that will see very little use in the long run.

 

[Vulcan]

is it just me or is there a load of topics on the forum at the moment that are just really stupid questions?

This is a prime example, others I can think of off the top of my head are the one about getting rid of 3rd rail because we've had snow for a week, and the one about new pacers.