Is it time to bring back steam again?

[MCR247]

Forgetting the fact that this thread is stupid and pointless, how do you think the general public would feel about their taxes going towered building steam locomotives that were deemed unviable 50 years ago?

The reason we fail so badly in snow is because we don't get it often enough. If this was a country where you could garuntee a foot of snow every year from september to march then we would be more prepared, but because we don't get much, like above, the gen. pub. wouldn't want there money going toward what might happen every year or two. So whatever the railway does, it loses.

 

[90019]

They have heated point motors/points on most routes now. It's the condutor rail freezing over which is the problem!

You know that most of the country doesn't use 3rd rail, right?

Also, all the points I've seen in Stirling and Edinburgh have been cleared of snow by hand.

 

[SussexSpotter]

The cost would be huge for what would make little difference overall.

It would make a huge ammount of difference, for a start the railway wouldn't stop working because of a few flurries of snow, people would get to work on time and would be like any normal day just a different haulage method. Getting rid of the electric rail isn't the answer, nor is buying new electric trains. The answer is to use a winter method to combat the snow problem!

Are you prepared to pay higher fares to pay for them to be sitting unused most of the time?

The government are already jacking up the fares in Jan 2011 by 12.8% and for what? The same service as always. Getting rid of the HS2 idea and investing in this would cost a fraction of the price. What is to say in years to come snow will become a regular occurance in the UK? Are we just gonna sit back and watch the railway stop working?

It wouldn't save anything. It would cost more, as you're having to pay to lease, run, maintain and crew a fleet of outdated locomotives that will see very little use in the long run.

The answer to this is above!

 

[Greenback]

Please, please, please, take note of the excellent reasons that have already been put forward as to why this diea is a compelte non starter!

 

[SussexSpotter]

You know that most of the country doesn't use 3rd rail, right?

Also, all the points I've seen in Stirling and Edinburgh have been cleared of snow by hand.

It's third rail territory where it is needed most! Not the whole UK network.

 

[90019]

It would make a huge ammount of difference, for a start the railway wouldn't stop working because of a few flurries of snow, people would get to work on time and would be like any normal day just a different haulage method. Getting rid of the electric rail isn't the answer, nor is buying new electric trains. The answer is to use a winter method to combat the snow problem!

And what about the other 50 weeks of the year, what do you propose they do then other than sit around wasting money and resources?

The government are already jacking up the fares in Jan 2011 by 12.8% and for what? The same service as always. Getting rid of the HS2 idea and investing in this would cost a fraction of the price. What is to say in years to come snow will become a regular occurance in the UK? Are we just gonna sit back and watch the railway stop working?

The answer to this is above!

They wouldn't divert the funds towards a short sighted plan which would have little use overall.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Please, please, please, take note of the excellent reasons that have already been put forward as to why this diea is a compelte non starter!

I fail to see how this is a non-starter! Did they say that when they brought third rail in the first place? No because at the time it was a mixture of steam and electric, with some diesel as well.

 

[90019]

I fail to see how this is a non-starter! Did they say that when they brought third rail in the first place? No because at the time it was a mixture of steam and electric, with some diesel as well.

It was only a mixture because there had to be an interim period, it would be prohibitively expensive to immediately switch from one to another.

 

[chris89]

Have to say no to this as well Sadly.

But a few Locomotives were scraped massivly to early. E.G the 9F's.

Chris

 

[SussexSpotter]

And what about the other 50 weeks of the year, what do you propose they do then other than sit around wasting money and resources?

They would have plenty of uses for the other 50 weeks of the year. Rescueing failed trains for a start, use on driver training trips, shunters, could be hired out to charter company's and used on some Summer express services. They could even be used on unit drags from say Wolverton to Lovers Walk which would save having to hire in another opperator to do the work.

They wouldn't divert the funds towards a short sighted plan which would have little use overall.

What use is HS2 then? Total waste of money, they are diverting all their attention to some new high speed link which im sure will cost an absolute fortune to travel on. The cost of it is in the billions as well. It's also not due to be started until after the next general election, what's to say it ever will?

 

[90019]

What use is HS2 then? Total waste of money, they are diverting all their attention to some new high speed link which im sure will cost an absolute fortune to travel on. The cost of it is in the billions as well. It's also not due to be started until after the next general election, what's to say it ever will?

Not a good argument to try and have with me, I'm afraid.
I'm not in favour of HS2, I'd rather the money was spent increasing capacity on existing routes, but that's not for here.

 

[Fred26]

What use is HS2 then? Total waste of money, they are diverting all their attention to some new high speed link which im sure will cost an absolute fortune to travel on. The cost of it is in the billions as well. It's also not due to be started until after the next general election, what's to say it ever will?

So the government wants to move rail in this country forward and you want to drag in back to the Dark Ages? Absolute madness.
Steam trains look lovely, but that's it. Nowadays, they're nothing but a pointless piece of nostalgia. Steam is not a serious way of transporting people around this country anymore.

 

[90019]

Rescueing failed trains for a start

That could be done much more efficiently with a dedicated diesel.

use on driver training trips

I'm not sure they could.

shunters

That would be a huge waste of resources.

could be hired out to charter company's and used on some Summer express services.

I won't deny that, but it's still a waste of resources.

They could even be used on unit drags from say Wolverton to Lovers Walk which would save having to hire in another opperator to do the work.

Again, it would be better done with a diesel.

Think about it, if you have a small fleet of kettles, you have to have extra staff trained differently, different maintainance which would bump up prices, parts would likely be expensive, you have to reinstate infrastructure and then maintain it for what would be little use, you have to buy and store an extra fuel source, etc. etc.
It would be a huge waste of money, space, time and other resources.

 

[SussexSpotter]

So the government wants to move rail in this country forward and you want to drag in back to the Dark Ages? Absolute madness.
Steam trains look lovely, but that's it. Nowadays, they're nothing but a pointless piece of nostalgia. Steam is not a serious way of transporting people around this country anymore.

That's not what im on about here! It's use for during the winter. When the snow and ice falls the trains don't run with third rail, simple as!

 

[Greenback]

They would have plenty of uses for the other 50 weeks of the year. Rescueing failed trains for a start, use on driver training trips, shunters, could be hired out to charter company's and used on some Summer express services. They could even be used on unit drags from say Wolverton to Lovers Walk which would save having to hire in another opperator to do the work.

What use is HS2 then? Total waste of money, they are diverting all their attention to some new high speed link which im sure will cost an absolute fortune to travel on. The cost of it is in the billions as well. It's also not due to be started until after the next general election, what's to say it ever will?

This is getting ridiculous. Have you not read the massive disadvantages in terms of maintenance, staffing, track requirements and cost that would have to be overcome and for what? Because there is some disruption during snow?

Create a business plan, get some finance and build a fleet of kettles, then you will see that there is no one queuing up to bring back 19th century technology on a large scale under any circumstances.

 

[LE Greys]

OK, assuming a huge increase in oil prices coming in the next ten years, then it would be time to electrify like mad. However, it might be worth looking at steam again. With automatic stoking, pulverised fuel and computer control, it would be possible to design a fleet of locomotives as easy to drive as diesels and double-ended. The largest would be a class of 100 Garratts, probably 2-8-2+2-8-2, to haul the heaviest freight trains. They would have a cab on each engine unit and a reliable automatic stoker, plus automatic injectors. For lighter freight and general duties, I would look at something based on the 9F, but double-ended again. There are several ways of doing this. One is to do something like the Italian cab-forward designs, another would be to design the tender in such a way that the loco could run tender-first at speed. Another possibility would be light Garratts, probably 2-6-2+2-6-2.

Still, this would require a major increase in oil prices, meaning that diesels would no longer be cost-effective.

 

[SussexSpotter]

That could be done much more efficiently with a dedicated diesel.

Diesel or Steam, there's no reason why a steam train couldn't rescue failed steam charters and units.

I'm not sure they could.

Exactly! There's no evidence to say they can't.

That would be a huge waste of resources.

Not really, considering the cost of running some of these shunters e.g the one @ Lovers Walk.

I won't deny that, but it's still a waste of resources.

Hardly a waste of resources if that's what steam charter opperators use! If it were a waste of resources there would be no steam opperators still running. Steam Dreams would literally only be a dream!

Again, it would be better done with a diesel.

Where's the evidence to say a diesel would perform better? There's far less steam breakdowns than there is diesel.

Think about it, if you have a small fleet of kettles, you have to have extra staff trained differently, different maintainance which would bump up prices, parts would likely be expensive, you have to reinstate infrastructure and then maintain it for what would be little use, you have to buy and store an extra fuel source, etc. etc. It would be a huge waste of money, space, time and other resources.

Southern/Southeastern etc. could get into the charter business, running Summer or Winter excursions from Brighton to say Glasgow using their own fleet. There was a Class 442 railtour not to long ago, formed of a Southern/GatEx Class 442 set.

 

[Fred26]

That's not what im on about here! It's use for during the winter. When the snow and ice falls the trains don't run with third rail, simple as!

If you're that keen, convince Southern/South Eastern/South West Trains to hire some of the pre-existing steam locos.
This would be a bad idea if you were suggesting steam for all year round, but just the winter (or even just when it snows)? That's insane.

 

[ainsworth74]

Diesel or Steam, there's no reason why a steam train couldn't rescue failed steam charters and units.

Yes there is you just won't accept it. A steam rescue locomotive would have to be kept fired up all day on the off chance that it is needed to rescue something, that means wasting fuel and paying people to keep an eye on it. A diesel rescue locomotive can be parked up in a siding, the engine turned off, its driver deployed onto other duties and if it is required someone sent out pushes a button to start and away it goes. Which is the better option?

Where's the evidence to say a diesel would perform better? There's far less steam breakdowns than there is diesel.

There are also far far fewer steam locomotives in use than there are diesel or any other type of train, hence it isn't a fair comparison. If you pointing to their reliability when they were still in widespread use then I would like to see some actual figures of how reliable they were. I would gamble their reliability is at the absolute best approaching the reliability of elder diesel locos and more likely nowhere near.

 

[Fred26]

Also, suggesting using these new steam trains on charters, in the summer, is clutching at straws a bit. By that I mean, the amount of steam trains you are surely talking about would completely saturate the charter market and thus destroying any novelty.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Yes there is you just won't accept it. A steam rescue locomotive would have to be kept fired up all day on the off chance that it is needed to rescue something, that means wasting fuel and paying people to keep an eye on it. A diesel rescue locomotive can be parked up in a siding, the engine turned off, its driver deployed onto other duties and if it is required someone sent out pushes a button to start and away it goes. Which is the better option?



There are also far far fewer steam locomotives in use than there are diesel or any other type of train, hence it isn't a fair comparison. If you pointing to their reliability when they were still in widespread use then I would like to see some actual figures of how reliable they were. I would gamble their reliability is at the absolute best approaching the reliability of elder diesel locos and more likely nowhere near.

I disagree with all of what you have said there! Mainline steam loco's have outlived most heritage loco's and they are far older, look at the Class 60 fleet most of them are in store now or at the scrap yard, they are about 2 decades old. This disproves everything you have said about diesel being more reliable. Oh and even some 66's are in store now!

At least you can see a mainline steam loco (quite a few actually), but most heritage diesel traction you can only see on private railways or at a scrap yard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, suggesting using these new steam trains on charters, in the summer, is clutching at straws a bit. By that I mean, the amount of steam trains you are surely talking about would completely saturate the charter market and thus destroying any novelty.

It wouldn't affect the charter market in the slightest. There are very few charters down South compared to up North so this would be tapping into a Niche market.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I disagree with all of what you have said there! Mainline steam loco's have outlived most heritage loco's and they are far older, look at the Class 60 fleet most of them are in store now or at the scrap yard, they are about 2 decades old. This disproves everything you have said about diesel being more reliable. Oh and even some 66's are in store now!

At least you can see a mainline steam loco (quite a few actually), but most heritage diesel traction you can only see on private railways or at a scrap yard.

that has nothing at all to do with reliability......... nothing at all

and the reason fares used to be cheaper is because there was more of it more people using it more freight using it..... if each TOC was subsidised by the profits of its freight market i would expect our train fares to be cheaper too....

it's not even for discussion

also someone pointed out about tornado resuing something? what happened there?

 

[Fred26]

also someone pointed out about tornado resuing something? what happened there?

Last winter. Southern or South Eastern trains failed. Tornado was passing and picked up a load of passengers. Something like that.

 

[SussexSpotter]

that has nothing at all to do with reliability......... nothing at all

Of course it does, if it was reliable it would still be fit for mainline use.

also someone pointed out about tornado resuing something? what happened there?

Exactly, so this proves my point!

 

[ainsworth74]

I disagree with all of what you have said there!

So you still claim that a steam loco can be a cost effective rescue loco?

Mainline steam loco's have outlived most heritage loco's and they are far older

Have you considered there is more interest in keeping steam on the mainline hence more money for the work to keep them their?

look at the Class 60 fleet most of them are in store now or at the scrap yard, they are about 2 decades old. This disproves everything you have said about diesel being more reliable.

One class proves that an entire type of motive power is unreliable? Someone should probably tell the entire world that seeing as they persist in using it.

Oh and even some 66's are in store now!

Ignoring that freight traffic has declined as a consequence of the recession hence they are stored waiting for traffic to pick back up again. And even if it doesn't they can at least be exported and used overseas, I doubt there would be many takers for your fleet of steam locos.

 

[Fred26]

It wouldn't affect the charter market in the slightest. There are very few charters down South compared to up North so this would be tapping into a Niche market.

...Which would still be a huge number of charters.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Of course it does, if it was reliable it would still be fit for mainline use.



Exactly, so this proves my point!

Or have DBS left them out to rot? ill leave bittern out in elements for 4 years and see how she runs after that?
66's are stored for a downturn in traffic no other reason!

does it hell prove your point, it proves your point that one day an electric train failed and a steam charter picked up passengers

so if a steam fails and electric picks up passnegers (which happens!!!!!!!!!!!!) we should remove all steam engines from charters and use electric or diesel?

i remeber sir lamiel failing at skipton on KWVR excursion to ribblehead.... a class 37 recued it so therefore by your logic diesels are way better than kettles?

 

[SussexSpotter]

So you still claim that a steam loco can be a cost effective rescue loco?

Well Tornado was

Have you considered there is more interest in keeping steam on the mainline hence more money for the work to keep them their?

You have answered your own question. Interest in keeping steam on the mainline, don't see any interest in keeping many Class 33's mainline. Isn't there just 1 mainline 33 left that WCRC own, and that rarely gets used anyway?

One class proves that an entire type of motive power is unreliable? Someone should probably tell the entire world that seeing as they persist in using it.

That's just one example! There are loads.

I doubt there would be many takers for your fleet of steam locos.

Im pretty sure there would be!

 

[Fred26]

Im pretty sure there would be!

If you can't find any on an enthusiasts forum, you won't find any in real life, either.

 

[SussexSpotter]

If you can't find any on an enthusiasts forum, you won't find any in real life, either.

Well im pretty sure a few Steam Heritage railways e.g the Bluebell Railway would be interested!