Is First Class good on a FGW HST?

[Flamingo]

Advance tickets in First Class are not necessary. There may be a requirement to make the journey, there may be a requirement to make the journey as cheaply as possible, both of which are catered for by having Advance Standard Class tickets. They do come with a guaranteed seat.

My personal opinion is that First Class has been severely undervalued by the Advance Tickets available.

I think the loss of revenue from passengers that will chose not to travel at all if they can't get a cut-price First Class ticket will be minimal, and more than countered by the increased revenue from passengers who will decide they (or their firm) will rather pay the First Class fare.

But I do suspect that the whole thing has more to do with the perceptions of passengers on the 25 minute run to Reading that the train is overcrowded, than the requirements of passengers traveling past Reading. As I know from daily experience, the seating problems between London and Reading have more to do with non-existent crowd management, and a refusal of travelers to look past coach E or D than a lack of seats.

 

[Goatboy]

Advance tickets in First Class are not necessary. There may be a requirement to make the journey, there may be a requirement to make the journey as cheaply as possible, both of which are catered for by having Advance Standard Class tickets. They do come with a guaranteed seat.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There is a third one - a requirement to make the journey, but with a desire for a satisfying balance of comfort and value. I'll happily pay double the price of a Standard Advance to travel in First Class and almost always do when such tickets are available. On a commercial basis its quite obvious there is a need for discounted premium cabin travel services, otherwise why would airlines - who have complete commercial freedom to offer whatever ticket types they want at any price they wish - have a range of non-flexible discounted ticket categories in premium cabins, just like an Advance First ticket?

The trouble is that ignoring Weekend First and Advance First many First Class fares are enormously expensively for what you get. I happen to think FGW First Class is examplary and IMHO the highest standard of accomodation on the railway, however...

...it's still just a bigger, comfier seat and a better cabin ambience. This is worth more money, unquestionably so, but assuming for a second Advance First didn't exist, is it 'worth' £186 (The cheapest walkon First Class Single from Exeter to Paddington) versus £46 (The cheapest walkon Standard Class single from Exeter to Paddington)? It's very hard to argue it is, it's not an experience thats 4 times better. The only people who can justify that are those who are not at all interested in value, because somebody else is paying for it.

My personal opinion is that First Class has been severely undervalued by the Advance Tickets available.

Though its very hard for me to disagree with this, because it's true. FC *has* changed in terms of its client mix as a result of the ease of availability of First Advance fares. First Class is more accessible to more people.

Though really this is something that could be countered by cleverer yield management. Often First Class is barely any more expensive than Standard or in some cases, if the Standard fare bucket has ratched up, cheaper. This is the sort of thing that leads to the undervaluing you describe. Perhaps there should be a link between fare buckets so that First Class is ALWAYS premium priced over the cheapest available Standard Class Advance?

Irrespective of this the fact remains that every other IC passengerbase will continue to benefit from great value First Class. You'll still be able to waft down from Birmingham in First on Virgin for £23.50 if you get the right ticket, etc etc. It seems to be just FGW who have had this significant reduction in FC capacity forced on them by the DFT. Nobody else has. Greater Anglia MK3's will still convey significant First Class accomodation (Which isn't as nice as FGW's) as will Virgin, MML, etc.

Not that I'm a fan of removing FC accomdation completely but as an example removing FC from a Voyager would increase standard class accomodation by 20% on trains which are almost always genuinelly overloaded as opposed to the scenario you go on to describe next..

But I do suspect that the whole thing has more to do with the perceptions of passengers on the 25 minute run to Reading that the train is overcrowded, than the requirements of passengers traveling past Reading.

Wholeheatedly agree that its a perception thing. I experienced it myself on Greater Anglia - a Mk3 set pulled in and the vestibules were totally wedged with people. I was worried there wasn't any space but managed to squeeze in to an obviously badly overloaded train.

Except 10 minutes in I realised it wasn't badly overloaded at all - infact there were an odd amount of vacant seats which people had simply chosen not to occupy and had instead just crammed into the vestibule areas, giving the impression that the train is packed.

I witness this quite a lot - full and standing trains which, in reality, have plenty of seats people seem unwilling to... actually use.

 

[jimm]

But now you're moving into entirely different territory, which is the shambolic mess that passes for a railway fares system in this country.

Why are there more first advance fares? Because the traditional 'someone else is paying' market has shrunk and the TOCs are trying to keep up revenue - making a few more quid out of off-peak traffic in first to make up for lost business custom from first in the peaks. Which is not an argument for retaining all those first class seats when standard is rammed.

As for

Irrespective of this the fact remains that every other IC passengerbase will continue to benefit from great value First Class. You'll still be able to waft down from Birmingham in First on Virgin for £23.50 if you get the right ticket, etc etc. It seems to be just FGW who have had this significant reduction in FC capacity forced on them by the DFT. Nobody else has. Greater Anglia MK3's will still convey significant First Class accomodation (Which isn't as nice as FGW's) as will Virgin, MML, etc.

Let's wait and see, shall we? The acres of unfilled first class seats on Pendolinos do not pass unnoticed by WestCoast passengers and during the aborted franchise process First Group was talking about introducing an intermediate class of travel, something which is also proposed in the DfT prospectus for the forthcoming East Coast franchise, so it seems a fair bet the same, or a cut in first class, will also be on the agenda when a long-term Greater Anglia franchise is let.

And how much longer EMT will be able to get away with running seven-car 222s that have 106 first class seats and just 236 in standard remains to be seen.

 

[island]

But I do suspect that the whole thing has more to do with the perceptions of passengers on the 25 minute run to Reading that the train is overcrowded, than the requirements of passengers traveling past Reading. As I know from daily experience, the seating problems between London and Reading have more to do with non-existent crowd management, and a refusal of travelers to look past coach E or D than a lack of seats.

Precisely this, combined with squeaky wheels in government consituencies getting the grease.

 

[Sleepy]

As Goatboy has mentioned there seems to be a sheep mentality on GA Intercity trains when 2 or 3 people are seen standing people will not bother to move along the train when 40+ empty seats are going begging ?? I also think First Advance tickets on GA at £13 have devalued First Class travel especially at weekends when loading of 95% in 1st is not uncommon.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

First class seating is ok on FGW. Better than the rammed full standard class. Even when I have travelled in First class on them the First Class carriages have also been very busy and full....So rather than loose a First Class carriage, why can they not do what Virgin West Coast have done and add one or two more standard class carriages to their trains, there seem to be enough spare MK3 type carriages seemingly just being stored and not used for ages at places like Crewe etc. Or could they convert the non driving trailers into standard class seating, (or has that already been done?)

 

[Goatboy]

The problem with the longer HST sets is that there are a number of very steep gradients in Devon and Cornwall that an HST with 10 coaches would have issues negotiating.

The HST sets do not have non driving trailers.

 

[Andrewlong]

Because everyone knows that Reading commuters are much more important than the rest of FGW combined ..... or at least they are the ones who shout the loudest! :roll:

Us Reading commuters are grateful to be able to get onto a train let alone get a seat. When a train pulls into a station and you empty/half empty first class carriages, we start asking questions like you could carry more passengers by ripping out the seats for the toffs to let your normal people have a chance!

And until we get Crossrail, and electrification of the GWML it will not change!
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Precisely this, combined with squeaky wheels in government consituencies getting the grease.

Would agree with you - there are often seats at the back of fast trains to Reading. Trouble is it's too far to walk when you get to Paddington.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem with the longer HST sets is that there are a number of very steep gradients in Devon and Cornwall that an HST with 10 coaches would have issues negotiating.

The HST sets do not have non driving trailers.

It would have been done already if it was a feasible solution.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Us Reading commuters are grateful to be able to get onto a train let alone get a seat. When a train pulls into a station and you empty/half empty first class carriages, we start asking questions like you could carry more passengers by ripping out the seats for the toffs to let your normal people have a chance!

And until we get Crossrail, and electrification of the GWML it will not change!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Would agree with you - there are often seats at the back of fast trains to Reading. Trouble is it's too far to walk when you get to Paddington.
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It would have been done already if it was a feasible solution.

Toffs! Envy is very ugly and often turns out a tad Animal Farm.

Could the 1st class not be put at the rear?

 

[Goatboy]

Us Reading commuters are grateful to be able to get onto a train let alone get a seat. When a train pulls into a station and you empty/half empty first class carriages, we start asking questions like you could carry more passengers by ripping out the seats for the toffs to let your normal people have a chance!

And until we get Crossrail, and electrification of the GWML it will not change!

They are building you a special new railway for commuting Meanwhile us long distance Intercity train users probably won't ever get that First Class on our long distance Intericty trains back when you get your shiney new trains

 

[Andrewlong]

Toffs! Envy is very ugly and often turns out a tad Animal Farm.

Could the 1st class not be put at the rear?

It's not envy - it's poor utilisation of a limited length HST set. So stripping out more first class seats is a good idea IMHO.

As to putting first class seats at the rear - they are located at the front so the first class passengers presumably don't have so far to walk at Paddington.

 

[CC 72100]

Us Reading commuters are grateful to be able to get onto a train let alone get a seat. When a train pulls into a station and you empty/half empty first class carriages, we start asking questions like you could carry more passengers by ripping out the seats for the toffs to let your normal people have a chance!

Would agree with you - there are often seats at the back of fast trains to Reading. Trouble is it's too far to walk when you get to Paddington.

I may have read your post wrong, but haven't you just addressed your own point there?

I'm sure the extra capacity in standard will be welcomed - no doubt about that - but as someone who uses first class on FGW semi-regularly (due to the good value advances), I can only imagine that a reduction in FC capacity -> less advances -> less FC for the likes of me and Goatboy.

Still, does seem to be a fair bit of effort going into trains that (rightly or wrongly) are going to be replaced soon....

 

[Andrewlong]

They are building you a special new railway for commuting Meanwhile us long distance Intercity train users probably won't ever get that First Class on our long distance Intericty trains back when you get your shiney new trains

I live near Reading and would not use Crossrail to get to London as it would take too long and stop everywhere. Plus it is planned to start in maidenhead of all places which isn't served by intercity trains.

Hopefully the new IEP's will have first and second class but there will still be plenty of HST's and 180's about on non-electrified lines where there still be pressure on seating.

 

[asylumxl]

Toffs! Envy is very ugly and often turns out a tad Animal Farm.





Could the 1st class not be put at the rear?

Standard practice for TOCs operating out of London termini is to have the First class on the "London end" of the train, as it means first class passengers have to walk less distance.



Pray tell me, how the poster in question is envious, when it seems the TOCs themselves imply certain stereotypes to their own customers ?

 

[Andrewlong]

I may have read your post wrong, but haven't you just addressed your own point there?

I'm sure the extra capacity in standard will be welcomed - no doubt about that - but as someone who uses first class on FGW semi-regularly (due to the good value advances), I can only imagine that a reduction in FC capacity -> less advances -> less FC for the likes of me and Goatboy.

Still, does seem to be a fair bit of effort going into trains that (rightly or wrongly) are going to be replaced soon....

Electrification of route through to Bristol is scheduled to happen by 2016 that is 2 years away. Passenger numbers in Thames Valley continue to rise. General election next year. Much talk of railway nationalisation and it solving all our problems!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Standard practice for TOCs operating out of London termini is to have the First class on the "London end" of the train, as it means first class passengers have to walk less distance.



Pray tell me, how the poster in question is envious, when it seems the TOCs themselves imply certain stereotypes to their own customers ?

My prejudices are aggravated by a policy introduced by FGW which states that standard class passengers cannot stand in first class vestibules. If caught, you could be fined. If you rush to get onto a train at Paddington which is about to leave, you will tend to get onto a first class carriage. I used to stand in the vestibule out of harms way but this is no longer acceptable to FGW.

So nowadays, there is a stream of second class passengers walking through first class just before train leaves. Unless of course there are disruptions to services in which case 2nd class passengers ignore the rules and find a space anywhere they can!

Apologies for the long explanation, just giving readers an insight into the challenges the poor downtrodden Reading commuter faces paying over £4k for a season ticket. And I am quite moderate - I don't use this line at present!

 

[Goatboy]

My prejudices are aggravated by a policy introduced by FGW which states that standard class passengers cannot stand in first class vestibules.

This is not a policy introduced by FGW, it's been the case since the year dot. First Class coach requires a First Class ticket.

If you rush to get onto a train at Paddington which is about to leave, you will tend to get onto a first class carriage.

Presumably though you know what time the train leaves and if you can't get there in time to board it comfortably then thats regretable but not exactly FGW's fault?

Apologies for the long explanation, just giving readers an insight into the challenges the poor downtrodden Reading commuter faces paying over £4k for a season ticket.

Sorry I'm fresh out of syampthy. £4k sounds like a lot as a number with no context, but when you think it provides you with unlimited travel as often as you want from a nice enough town into the centre of the capital city of this country, it looks rather more like a bargain.

Infact it's 10 quid a day!! A tenner a day for that. Thats reduced my sympathy for the plight of the Reading commuter even more. It's an exceptional deal - you get to make a round trip of almost 100 miles, every day, for £10 a day. And not only that, but it also affords you the ability to do this journey in as little as 25 minutes each way. It would take an HOUR to drive.

Rail provides you with a hilariously cheap and ultra fast service, if you think about it.


Thats FIVE TIMES cheaper than the price paid by somebody who, on a single occasion, wishes to travel to London and back leaving in the morning.

Perhaps Reading commuters should pay a little more for the ticket to fund the changes they want?

 

[CC 72100]

Apologies for the long explanation, just giving readers an insight into the challenges the poor downtrodden Reading commuter faces paying over £4k for a season ticket. And I am quite moderate - I don't use this line at present!

I'm not quite sure if that's serious or not... if it is, isn't it just that every commuter thinks that their line gets the rawest deal? (Even as a commuter, albeit only for a 7 month period, I am starting to feel that a little bit, but at least in my case it is sort of true )

 

[Goatboy]

Reading commuters must be the luckiest in the country, who else can travel to work in Central London from 40 miles away in 25 minutes for a tenner a day?

 

[Drsatan]

Besides, I can't think of many commuters who enjoy 7 fast trains an hour to London! To someone commuting from Southport to Manchester Victoria that would seem luxurious.

 

[Goatboy]

What happens to 165's out of Reading? Presumably they depart empty because they are not good enough for the Reading commuters, who would rather all cram onto an HST and then blame FGW for the subsequent overcrowding?

 

[CC 72100]

What happens to 165's out of Reading? Presumably they depart empty because they are not good enough for the Reading commuters, who would rather all cram onto an HST (in coach E) and then blame FGW for the subsequent overcrowding?

Fixed that for you

 

[Andrewlong]

I'm not quite sure if that's serious or not... if it is, isn't it just that every commuter thinks that their line gets the rawest deal? (Even as a commuter, albeit only for a 7 month period, I am starting to feel that a little bit, but at least in my case it is sort of true )

As i said before I am quite moderate about this. You should listen some of the ranters on twitters who complain non-stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is not a policy introduced by FGW, it's been the case since the year dot. First Class coach requires a First Class ticket.



Presumably though you know what time the train leaves and if you can't get there in time to board it comfortably then thats regretable but not exactly FGW's fault?



Sorry I'm fresh out of syampthy. £4k sounds like a lot as a number with no context, but when you think it provides you with unlimited travel as often as you want from a nice enough town into the centre of the capital city of this country, it looks rather more like a bargain.

Infact it's 10 quid a day!! A tenner a day for that. Thats reduced my sympathy for the plight of the Reading commuter even more. It's an exceptional deal - you get to make a round trip of almost 100 miles, every day, for £10 a day. And not only that, but it also affords you the ability to do this journey in as little as 25 minutes each way. It would take an HOUR to drive.

Rail provides you with a hilariously cheap and ultra fast service, if you think about it.


Thats FIVE TIMES cheaper than the price paid by somebody who, on a single occasion, wishes to travel to London and back leaving in the morning.

Perhaps Reading commuters should pay a little more for the ticket to fund the changes they want?

Nope - you used to be able to stand in a first class vestibule - not coach. There are now signs and warnings from the guards.

Agree with you about real cost of commuting. About time the rail industry employed decent PR people to counter the negativity in the media.

 

[ainsworth74]

Nope - you used to be able to stand in a first class vestibule - not coach. There are now signs and warnings from the guards.

Sounds like they've started actually enforcing the rules as East Coast has had the same rule for as long as I can remember. It's standard practice that you cannot stand in the vestibule of a first class carriage unless you hold a first class ticket. Always has been.

 

[bnm]

Infact it's 10 quid a day!! A tenner a day for that.

Only if the Season is used 365 days and that's not possible. And if if were it'd be £11.20 (£4088/365).

Typical use of a Season Ticket is around 240 days a year. £17 per day for a Reading commuter. Still great value admittedly, bur somewhat different to a tenner a day.

 

[Hellfire]

As to putting first class seats at the rear - they are located at the front so the first class passengers presumably don't have so far to walk at Paddington.

But if they were at the other end it wouldn't be so far to walk at Penzance

 

[D1009]

Don't think it's the case on XC though because the toliet in coach A on Voyagers is regularly used by standard class passengers, particularly when the rest of them aren't working. I suspect it's the same on TPE and other TOCs where the train isn't class-divided by the catering vehicle.

 

[455driver]

Is it just me, or is there an unfeasibly large number of people on this forum whose sole concern when it comes to first class travel seems to be the so-called freebies? Which are being paid for out of their fares...

On the rare occasions I shell out the money for first it's purely on the grounds of getting a decent travelling environment on services where I know standard is going to be rammed, not because I might get the odd 'free' drink or 'free' sandwich or snack box.

it isnt even 'free' anyway, the ticket price is adjusted to take the costs of providing the 'free' food into account at the outset, either way you look at it you are paying for the food whether its by purchasing a ticket to travel 1st class on some TOCs or on board when ordering your food on others.

I would rather pay for the food I consume and given the choice between VWC or EC 'free' meal and a freshly prepared meal by the chef (either travelling or Pullman) on FGW I would take FGW every time.

 

[Flamingo]

Andrewlong has raised so many points that need rebutting I'm not sure where to start, and certainly can't work out how to quote them individually. However, to pass on my experiences and opinions as a guard working trains too and from Reading:

1. Trains from London to Reading are frequent enough that at peak time there is no reason to run for a train and dive on, there is another train at very most ten minutes later.

2. The vast majority of trains have seats available. It just means walking through the trains. This is possible by saying "Excuse me" and moving past those who have stopped and are causing an obstruction. Even Andrewlong admits there are seats on the trains, just that he is too lazy to walk the extra 100m to get to them.

3. There is standing space in STD class. Plenty of it. Why do people travelling to and from Reading feel the need to stand in First Class? I am genuinely interested.

4. The "we're not in the way standing in the First Class vestibules" argument, is, frankly, bollix. Passengers there block the First Class trolley getting through, they block the toilets, they block the doors, they cause the automatic doors to keep opening, and they can cause a disturbance using mobile phones etc.

5. Over the past few months, on trains using platform 7 In Reading, First Class has not been on the platform due to building work. The strange thing is, on these trains, I have gone from having to kick out a dozen or more people from the vestibules to having NOBODY standing in the vestibules. Coincidence - I think not.

6. I make a point of clearing the First Class vestibules, before leaving London. I get abused, threatened, accused of lying when I direct people to empty seats further up the train (as I always do), and generally dread what I'm going to face from the "Poor downtrodden commuters" from Reading. The reason I do this is the genuine thanks I get from the people in First Class, some of whom as Season Ticket holders have paid considerably more than £4000 for their tickets to travel in a suitable First Class service.

In my personal opinion, if a few RPI's worked the London-Reading trains, and PF'd passengers standing in First Class, within a fortnight the problem would be solved. I can't see this happening, however, and staff will continue to receive "Please explains" over complaints from passengers that should by rights be writing in to ask can they have an out-of-court settlement for a blatant, habitual breach of their ticket conditions and Railway Bylaws.

 

[Squaddie]

Sorry I'm fresh out of syampthy. £4k sounds like a lot as a number with no context, but when you think it provides you with unlimited travel as often as you want from a nice enough town into the centre of the capital city of this country, it looks rather more like a bargain.

But that's more than it costs for completely unlimited travel for a year on the entire German rail network (£3,400), the entire Swiss network (£2,400) or the entire Austrian rail network (£1,200). In fact, you could get unlimited travel on the entire Swiss and Austrian networks for a year for the price of a season ticket between London and Reading, and travel in much greater comfort too.

It doesn't seem like such a great bargain now, does it?

 

[455driver]

Move to Germany, Switzerland or Austria then!
If it is so much better over there why are you over here?

The way their networks are set up, run and financed are completely different to ours, its like comparing apples and bananas!

I like apples but dont like bananas!