Is electrifying Windermere worth it?

[Agent_Squash]

Splitting from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/speed-upgrades-and-electrification.221504/ as it probably warrants it’s own thread…

There's a major difficulty with the visual impact of OHLE in the national park from local residents and visitors.

That’s what Chris Grayling said - but the National Park themselves don’t have a problem with it. Indeed, they support electrification, along with most other local bodies.

And I haven’t heard any complaints from local residents whenever it’s discussed (as a local resident!)

Series 2 OLE would be unobtrusive enough - yes the line is scenic, but it is largely out of the way for most of its run. The ‘OLE will destroy the scenery arguement’ is purely a political excuse - even if they didn’t use Series 2, they only need low speed OLE which could be made to work.

The line is entirely within Tim Farron’s constituency, so I expect electrification will be offered up again as a bribe at some point… but the fact we make up excuses for the easiest electrification project in the country is somewhat ridiculous.

 

[Killingworth]

Single track and only half the distance in the National Park, and even that not in the most scenic part.

On a cost per mile project to gain a much greater electric hauled distance with through trains this really should be at the top of a priority list.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Grayling talking out of his rear, nowt unusual about that!

 

[HSTEd]

If they could use weathering rather than galvanised steel it might go down better.

 

[MattRat]

I suspect NIMBY's are the ones causing problems again....

And yes I know it isn't actually anyone's backyard, but I can see some of them being like "just who decided to put an annoying railway though MY national park? And they want to make it stick out even more?".

 

[Agent_Squash]

I suspect NIMBY's are the ones causing problems again....

And yes I know it isn't actually anyone's backyard, but I can see some of them being like "just who decided to put an annoying railway though MY national park? And they want to make it stick out even more?".

It managed to receive full permission from the national park previously - it does seem like less NIMBY and more ‘not where I go on holiday for a bit!’

 

[yorksrob]

Clearly it makes sense to electrify it. Clearances are generous, it would remove a comparatively short section of non-electrified rail from a heavily used tourist route, meaning no need for diesel/awkward bi-mode sub fleets. It could be worked from the general pool of electric units and strengthened potentially as needed.

It's single track, so a line of stanchions would be little more obtrusive visually than a line of telegraph poles.

People objecting to this really need to have words with themselves.

 

[Falcon1200]

100% yes, as stated above it could hardly be a simpler job and would be operationally hugely beneficial.

 

[Whistler40145]

It should be electrified, I believe it wouldn’t require extra feeder stations as it would be provided by the WCML supply

 

[Cheshire Scot]

It should be electrified, I believe it wouldn’t require extra feeder stations as it would be provided by the WCML supply

Given it was to be part of the North West Electrification programme the probably minimal additional need would have been factored in.

In terms of visual impact I recall green steelwork being the norm in Germany.

 

[Ken H]

It would need an isolator at oxenholme so the whole line can be de-energised when desired.
Its not high speed so woukd trolleywire with bridles do. Cheaper and less intrusive.
I do worry about the bridge just to the east of Staveley level crossing. Would that be a little tight?

 

[AndrewE]

Nobody has ever voiced an objection to extending the wires to Windermere, to my knowledge - and I have dug around a bit to see if I could find one.
I think it must be the people who are anti-rail on principle who report these spurious objections, always attributing them to others, of course!

I don't think there is anything wrong with either galvanised or grey-painted steel either, in fact I think it would look better than bright orange rusty steel.

 

[Whistler40145]

It would need an isolator at oxenholme so the whole line can be de-energised when desired.
Its not high speed so woukd trolleywire with bridles do. Cheaper and less intrusive.
I do worry about the bridge just to the east of Staveley level crossing. Would that be a little tight?

Could the track bed be lowered under the bridge?

 

[ian1944]

Nobody seems to mind scenic Switzerland having electric trains all over the place.

 

[geoffk]

If they could use weathering rather than galvanised steel it might go down better.

or wood......

 

[Ken H]

Could the track bed be lowered under the bridge?

dunno. Close to level crossing. Looks tight. https://goo.gl/maps/cgq83CNBnmt7WBiq8 But a track expert will know better than me.

 

[adamedwards]

They should use this as a test for the new carbon fibre posts which need short foundations given the rock. Top speed is pretty low so trolley wire ought to make sense. Just need a solution to the 5mph level crossing at Burnside. Electric all the way from Manchester Airport should then improve the journey times.

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes. Just get it done.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Grayling talking out of his rear, nowt unusual about that!

It managed to receive full permission from the national park previously

In this relatively 'new' thread (even if 'old' topic) would it be possible to re-provide links/references/sources for these 'quotes'/'consents', please?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Agent_Squash]

In this relatively 'new' thread (even if 'old' topic) would it be possible to re-provide links/references/sources for these 'quotes'/'consents', please?

Thanks in advance.

The point about National Park approval is in this article: https://cumbriacrack.com/2017/08/03...clarity-lake-district-rail-line-improvements/

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thank you @Agent_Squash . Very clear and helpful.

Just Chris Grayling to go (with reference to visual impact and so on, rather than just "no money left")

 

[Ken H]

They should use this as a test for the new carbon fibre posts which need short foundations given the rock. Top speed is pretty low so trolley wire ought to make sense. Just need a solution to the 5mph level crossing at Burnside. Electric all the way from Manchester Airport should then improve the journey times.

or wood. properly tannilised should last quite well.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Thank you @Agent_Squash . Very clear and helpful.

Just Chris Grayling to go (with reference to visual impact and so on, rather than just "no money left")

Mentioned in this press release - ‘concerns about electrification gantries spoiling protected landscapes’ - https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-update-bi-mode-train-technology

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thank you once again @Agent_Squash . Amazing that that statement was nearly five years ago now. The more strategic 'bi-mode outcome' for GW and MML is well on the way to fruition, obviously with the more recent Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands providing an update in terms of HS2, Transpennine Route Upgrade, re-starting MML electrification and so on.

The relevant bit for the Windermere line in the 2017 Grayling speech that is linked above states:

"We have listened to concerns about electrification gantries spoiling protected landscapes. Northern, the train operator, will therefore begin work to explore the possibility of deploying alternative-fuel trains on the route by 2021, improving comfort and on-board facilities for passengers whilst protecting the sensitive environment of this World Heritage Site. This trial will pilot an alternative-fuelled train, removing the need to construct intrusive wires and masts in this National Park. Journeys between Windermere and Manchester Airport will be improved sooner and with less disruption to services and local communities. This replaces plans to electrify the line between Windermere and Oxenholme.

This investment is a part of the Great North Rail Project, which will deliver more frequent trains and new direct services on the West Coast Main Line, with faster journeys and increased frequency into and through Manchester from across the north-west. It will boost access to jobs and new opportunities, growing the Northern Powerhouse by improving connections between the Lake District and the Manchester Airport international gateway.

Train operators and Network Rail will need to work as one to deliver these upgrades and introduce the new fleets in a way which ensures passengers experience better journeys as soon as possible."

So the missing piece of the jigsaw is actually the trial of an alternative fuelled train on the Windermere. I get that franchised Northern didn't do this before the operation was nationalised and that we have had Covid since but what has the public sector actually done so far to try a battery, hydrogen or whatever train on the line?

 

[yorksrob]

Thank you once again @Agent_Squash . Amazing that that statement was nearly five years ago now. The more strategic 'bi-mode outcome' for GW and MML is well on the way to fruition, obviously with the more recent Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands providing an update in terms of HS2, Transpennine Route Upgrade, re-starting MML electrification and so on.

The relevant bit for the Windermere line in the 2017 Grayling speech that is linked above states:

"We have listened to concerns about electrification gantries spoiling protected landscapes. Northern, the train operator, will therefore begin work to explore the possibility of deploying alternative-fuel trains on the route by 2021, improving comfort and on-board facilities for passengers whilst protecting the sensitive environment of this World Heritage Site. This trial will pilot an alternative-fuelled train, removing the need to construct intrusive wires and masts in this National Park. Journeys between Windermere and Manchester Airport will be improved sooner and with less disruption to services and local communities. This replaces plans to electrify the line between Windermere and Oxenholme.

This investment is a part of the Great North Rail Project, which will deliver more frequent trains and new direct services on the West Coast Main Line, with faster journeys and increased frequency into and through Manchester from across the north-west. It will boost access to jobs and new opportunities, growing the Northern Powerhouse by improving connections between the Lake District and the Manchester Airport international gateway.

Train operators and Network Rail will need to work as one to deliver these upgrades and introduce the new fleets in a way which ensures passengers experience better journeys as soon as possible."

So the missing piece of the jigsaw is actually the trial of an alternative fuelled train on the Windermere. I get that franchised Northern didn't do this before the operation was nationalised and that we have had Covid since but what has the public sector actually done so far to try a battery, hydrogen or whatever train on the line?

It's flannel. The rail-sceptic government has tested various bi-mode trains, but nothing on the branch.

If it wants to "protect" the landscape, it should paint the metalwork green.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It's flannel. The rail-sceptic government has tested various bi-mode trains, but nothing on the branch.

If it wants to "protect" the landscape, it should paint the metalwork green.

Thank you.

I am genuinely trying to tease out the distinction between 'bi-modes' (presumably Class 769s in a Northern context) and 'alternative fuelled' (presumably [partially] battery or hydrogen given current technology).

Have Class 769s been trialled on the branch?

Has nationalised Northern/Directly Operated Railways made any formal statement that (diesel) Class 195s now represent the indefinite future on the line? Have they formally stated that there will be no trial (or that it will now be somewhere else, such as Teesside, Whitby or wherever)?

 

[Agent_Squash]

So the missing piece of the jigsaw is actually the trial of an alternative fuelled train on the Windermere. I get that franchised Northern didn't do this before the operation was nationalised and that we have had Covid since but what has the public sector actually done so far to try a battery, hydrogen or whatever train on the line?

There’s been silence ever since that announcement. Tim Farron occasionally gets a discussion in Parliament about it but nothing really happens.

The new 195 battery hybrids that Northern are planning to order wouldn’t be a good fit for Windermere as they’re still diesel. The 321 trial is in the north east.

Northern ordered 3 extra 195s on the original order to make up for Windermere electrification. Based on that, at least three 331s will have to be converted if the line wasn’t electrified - although I suspect they’d try and include Barrow in the same project so it was viable.

One thing to note is that the Cumbria - Airport routes are the only routes under the original franchise agreement that had to meet the Connect spec, as they were ex TPE. As every service on the Windermere line was operated by TPE, that meant that all services had to meet the new spec.

With a very vocal local MP in what was a marginal seat (in 2019), it would be politically untenable to replace the TPE 185s with 769s. I believe the Windermere branch is one of the only lines that gets all 195 service - so anything that replaces them has to be equivalent or better.

Really the options are to keep the 195s, wire it or try and convert a 331 to battery-electric.

 

[43096]

If it wants to "protect" the landscape, it should paint the metalwork green.

This chestnut again. There were various proposals as to what colour to paint the masts on the Royal Border Bridge at Berwick back in the 1980s. It turned out that the standard grey colour was the best option.

 

[yorksrob]

Thank you.

I am genuinely trying to tease out the distinction between 'bi-modes' (presumably Class 769s in a Northern context) and 'alternative fuelled' (presumably [partially] battery or hydrogen given current technology).

Have Class 769s been trialled on the branch?

Has nationalised Northern/Directly Operated Railways made any formal statement that (diesel) Class 195s now represent the indefinite future on the line? Have they formally stated that there will be no trial (or that it will now be somewhere else, such as Teesside, Whitby or wherever)?

The point i'm making is that you can have whatever bi-modes you like, but the Windermere line is the most pointless place to have them. Electrification is sensible because it is short, easy to do and the trains on it spend most of the time on the electric network anyway.

By contrast, the Southport line, which is long, double track and would cost a lot more to electrify seems to be more suitable for bi-modes, and going by my visit to the line last week, the ex Thmeslink sets seem to be doing a pretty decent job.

This chestnut again. There were various proposals as to what colour to paint the masts on the Royal Border Bridge at Berwick back in the 1980s. It turned out that the standard grey colour was the best option.

Fair doos. Whatever works. Who knows, people in the lake District might prefer green

 

[Agent_Squash]

The point i'm making is that you can have whatever bi-modes you like, but the Windermere line is the most pointless place to have them. Electrification is sensible because it is short, easy to do and the trains on it spend most of the time on the electric network anyway.

By contrast, the Southport line, which is long, double track and would cost a lot more to electrify seems to be more suitable for bi-modes, and going by my visit to the line last week, the ex Thmeslink sets seem to be doing a pretty decent job.


Fair doos. Whatever works. Who knows, people in the lake District might prefer green

Southport is a completely different tier of service to Windermere. But the power of a line user group shows!