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Interesting incident at LTV
- Thread starter dcmbarton
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What's the problem? This is a forum for discussion of such topics, and I for one have learned a huge amount about SPADs in this thread. If there has been an error/mechanical fault of some kind I am sure it will be investigated fully, fairly and subjectively without the help of this forum. All manner of things are discussed and speculated here and as a result we can all learn a thing or two!
There was a little extra detail (not added by the OP but it really doesn't matter who by), a request was made through the correct channels (the report button
) asking us to delete this extra detail, we agreed that the request was fair and reasonable. The extra detail has been removed. I know some people would rather nothing at all (about this particular incident) was discussed, and it's not always easy for us to make the right decisions, but we have decided to keep the topic open, just with the little bit of information removed that was an understandable cause for concern for some members.
Minilad
Established Member
It was my post that was amended. If anybody would like discuss with me about the posting. Not what happened but the fact it was posted then feel free to PM me
the sniper
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It's now been confirmed to me that it definitely was a SPAD. Still an odd set of circumstance though.
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
This, this and very much this.
Speaking as a driver I would like to know about every SPAD which happens on the railway. I'd like to know what caused it and what can be done to prevent it. Finding out the specific details about an incident can be very helpful because a SPAD could easily happen to any of us, whether it is our first day or we have twenty years experience and an unblemished record. There but for the grace of God go I, so to speak.
Of course idle gossip and chit chat will happen around a SPAD, especially on the internet, but I still think there should be threads on the subject. It is a very important topic and if it can remind us that we are all human and are fallible to mistakes, especially if we are not careful then it is worth our time reading.
Sounds like the railways could be helped by something like the WANO (World Association of Nuclear Operators) Operating Experience (Opex) programme
http://www.wano.org.uk/WANO_Programmes/Operating_Experience_Programme.asp
http://www.wano.info/programmes/operating-experience/
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
I've been told that a list of every SPAD since about 1999 is available through OpsWeb.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wonder if that would count fitters out
Roylang
Member
But the criticism was that by having the SPAD revealed on here the driver's colleagues may find out before he/she had a chance to tell them so such an approach would not help. The discussion of SPADS and causes is of interest to many.
I also think such a sub-forum would be almost unworkable as many people would not want to reveal their role at work.
Roy
Whistler40145
Established Member
The last thing you want is to drop someone in the muck!
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
They are all available online. All recent SPADs over a given route are displayed in a notice case at every train crew booking on point too. I personally prefer to have a discussion with other drivers about incidents though, which is why I enjoy the RED series of videos. It is just a shame we often dont get as much time as we should to see them.
Couldn't agree more mate. As far as SPADs are concerned usually there is a deep rooted cause as to why they happened (maybe fatigue, worrying about home life etc) and the more we learn about those causes the more we can avoid mirroring those mistakes. We shouldn't be going about our jobs terrified of making a mistake but I think as human beings, we need incidents like these in the back of our minds to remind us that we are not immune to becoming involved in an operational incident.
Whistler40145
Established Member
I train driver must be so worried & anxious of passing a SPAD that it can cause health problems.
I stood up in a room last week and bluntly told managers that we a great at telling people what to do and not do, but skimp on the reassurance and support. You see it's very easy on a forum to warn and ban people but reassurance is a more difficult to identify and provide. I feel that the OP raised an important question that should have been answered straightly.
I personally thought that the OP needed reassuring over the query raised as many members had pointed out that the bluntly applied reason. I think that calling it just a SPAD is a fair comment to make on the situation but it must be done tacitly to ensure that the speculation does not cause undue stress to whoever is involved.
One day it might be you.
I personally thought that the OP needed reassuring over the query raised as many members had pointed out that the bluntly applied reason. I think that calling it just a SPAD is a fair comment to make on the situation but it must be done tacitly to ensure that the speculation does not cause undue stress to whoever is involved.
One day it might be you.
Old Timer
Established Member
Morning all.
Having checked with someone in the know, I can confirm that the train was involved in a Category A SPAD incident.
Whilst the matter is still naturally going through the internal investigatory process, the circumstances within the "public" domain are as follows.
The train departed on the Down Slow line heading north. The normal arrangement is that the train would have been routed out Down Slow to Down Fast from Lichfield TV North Jct.
As the Liverpool train departed along the Down Slow, it was passed by a train running at speed on the Down Fast.
The Liverpool train thus approached the junction with both the Down Slow and Down Fast signals at Red but unfortunately failed to stop at the Down Slow signal, over-running this by approximately 1/2 of the leading vehicle length.
The matter was reported and the train was set back into the platform, whilst the initial investigation was concluded.
Having checked with someone in the know, I can confirm that the train was involved in a Category A SPAD incident.
Whilst the matter is still naturally going through the internal investigatory process, the circumstances within the "public" domain are as follows.
The train departed on the Down Slow line heading north. The normal arrangement is that the train would have been routed out Down Slow to Down Fast from Lichfield TV North Jct.
As the Liverpool train departed along the Down Slow, it was passed by a train running at speed on the Down Fast.
The Liverpool train thus approached the junction with both the Down Slow and Down Fast signals at Red but unfortunately failed to stop at the Down Slow signal, over-running this by approximately 1/2 of the leading vehicle length.
The matter was reported and the train was set back into the platform, whilst the initial investigation was concluded.
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Whistler40145
Established Member
Old Timer, thanks for providing the facts of what happened. Hopefully, this will now answer everyone's questions & queries.
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
It would have only been a few yards beyond the signal, which is the important thing.
On re-reading the first post, I now realise he meant the whole train was a few metres from the station. Apologies to dcmbarton.
I know this is a private forum, that the owners can make their own rules as to what is allowed or not, but surely the reason that the ' driver might want to tell his collegues first' is disengenuous. The SPAD happened 'in the public domain', for a start there's a train full of people who knew before his collegues, who's to say one of them wouldn't have passed the story on? Presumably a good few staff were involved in the recovery process too?
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
The driver is probably unaware this forum even exists if truth be told. I doubt he will care too much about what people are saying on it.
That too
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/ca14/ALYCIDON RAIL/Archive misc/The Naked Driver.htm
is an interesting read ... was to me at least!
S.
is an interesting read ... was to me at least!
S.
I know a little more about the incident, from official sources, and what OT said is entirely factual and correct.
It remains a fact that the poor driver now faces scrutiny for his mistake, rightly so. Thankfully, it should be mentioned that at no point in this thread has anyone resorted to wild speculation or criticism.
It remains a fact that the poor driver now faces scrutiny for his mistake, rightly so. Thankfully, it should be mentioned that at no point in this thread has anyone resorted to wild speculation or criticism.
Whistler40145
Established Member
Oh what a mess!
Old Timer
Established Member
Anticipation is the train driving equivalent of the Jararaca snake, ready to strike without warning and with potentially severe consequences.
In those times you stood by the frame ready the pull the junction lever out of the frame if the train came down too fast
I shouldn't worry too much, the days of immediate dismissal are now past. Thes ethings have happened since we implemented approach release, indeed they even happened in mechanical days.
In those times you stood by the frame ready the pull the junction lever out of the frame if the train came down too fast
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1 inch past the signal is the same as a mile as far as the investigation goes.
We had a SPAD notice about an incident where the signal was passed by less than 1 metre (0.87 actually) but still a SPAD.
I think a SPAD is one of those things that stay on your record indefinitely.
Never ASSUME the signal will clear, 1 time it wont and you are in the proverbial.
There are procedures in place to get to the bottom of this as you well know OT.
Approach control doesnt exist, at least thats what we were told during training but the instructor had something in his eye at the time
Ah the good old days when the siggy was in charge!
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
Yes it is, but its completely different as far as not having a collision with another train goes, which is the point I was trying to make.
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