Interesting incident at LTV

[dcmbarton]

This evening I witnessed an interesting incident at a station in Staffordshire. A train working an inter-city service departed about on time, and then stopped just a few metres outside the station. After about 30 minutes the train reversed back into the station. The chap in the ticket office had no idea what was happening, and went to ask the on-board staff, only to come back saying he was none-the-wiser! As another service was cancelled due to an 'operating incident', I can only assume that the inter-city service had broken down in some way (though obviously not enough to mean it couldn't reverse into the station!)

Anyone any idea what was going on?

David

 

[AlterEgo]

From experience - a similar thing happened to me at Milton Keynes - it's likely to be a brake fault or seizure.

Setting back is not particularly hard under the circumstances.

 

[Minilad]

The train was involved in a Cat A SPAD

 

[es373]

Maybe this thread should be pulled.

 

[ukrob]

Maybe this thread should be pulled.

Why?

It has facts, not speculation - and management are obviously aware of it as it eventually set back.

 

[SouthStand]

Assuming passengers were held on the train whilst it waited, why does it take 30 minutes before it can be rolled back? This is exactly the sort of thing that causes passengers to "break out" in annoyance.

 

[trentside]

Assuming passengers were held on the train whilst it waited, why does it take 30 minutes before it can be rolled back? This is exactly the sort of thing that causes passengers to "break out" in annoyance.

Because it's not as simple as just rolling the train back.

Not that the 'break out' brigade would understand this, but rolling a train back on a busy mainline is no simple business. Various safety precautions have to be undertaken to ensure that the train setting back is not involved in another incident.

I'm sure a member of staff can explain this better than I can.

 

[driver9000]

Assuming passengers were held on the train whilst it waited, why does it take 30 minutes before it can be rolled back? This is exactly the sort of thing that causes passengers to "break out" in annoyance.

Because there is a set procedure to follow. Sometimes these things take time and have to be followed properly, and that is before you even think about setting the train back. The current fashion for breaking out of trains would only exacerbate the problem and certainly make it longer than 30 minutes.

 

[AlterEgo]

Usually in the case of a SPAD, the Driver may need to be spoken to and Chain of Care carried out, primarily to ensure the driver's welfare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The current fashion for breaking out of trains would only exacerbate the problem and certainly make it longer than 30 minutes.

Indeed!

 

[Nym]

Especially at places like LTV where I beleive 25KV runs trackside...?

 

[es373]

All overhead lines run 25kV unless it's running a different voltage like in europe.
Unless you mean the return circuit which can indeed have 25kV running through the tracks/returns.

The train was involved in a Cat A SPAD

I don't think it's fair to publicly advertise that a driver has had a class A SPAD. As stated before, wrong direction moves do have a whole wealth of procedures to follow.

 

[Rugd1022]

Especially at places like LTV where I beleive 25KV runs trackside...?

Not trackside, up above

In the event of a SPAD, especially a cat A one, the train cannot be moved until the Driver has been seen by management, the loco / unit's 'black box' has been downloaded and permission has been given from the signaller, hence the delay.

 

[es373]

You Virgin boys have to be downloaded on site?

That's not good.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think any speculation as to the causes or specifics of this incident is very unfair.

 

[es373]

I think cat A SPAD is driver error.

It happens, could also be a driver failing to slow and come to a stop after a yellow signal.

There are a few other categories.
Cat B (I think Cat B is technical reasons) where the aspect 'bobs'.

Could have also been a Cat C where signaller has put the stick back to Red as the train is departing the station for any given reason.

I am not a driver so not very familiar with SPAD categories so if there is a driver/signaller here then feel free to correct me!


@AlterEgo.
Yes, I agree. However I am explaining the SPAD categories and since I wasn't at LTV and know nothing of the incident, I shall not make any comments towards the incident in its self.

 

[MCR247]

Out of curiosity, do SPADs happen often?

 

[driver9000]

There are a few other categories.
Cat B (I think Cat B is technical reasons) where the aspect 'bobs'.

Could have also been a Cat C where signaller has put the stick back to Red as the train is departing the station for any given reason.

I am not a driver so not very familiar with SPAD categories so if there is a driver/signaller here then feel free to correct me!

B is the signal being put back in error or equipment failure
C is the signal being put back in an emergency and the train is unable to stop before the signal.
D is an out of control vehicle that couldn't be stopped (ie runaway)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_passed_at_danger

 

[TDK]

Not trackside, up above

In the event of a SPAD, especially a cat A one, the train cannot be moved until the Driver has been seen by management, the loco / unit's 'black box' has been downloaded and permission has been given from the signaller, hence the delay.

That is not necessarily correct, it is down to the on call managers decision on what happens however the driver usually is not permitted to move the train so a relief driver needs to be found and this is probably the 30 minute delay cause. In circumstances like these there is an instant investigation that commences and certain things on the train cannot be touched until documented by the on call manager, this could have also been the delay, however, as the train time has been mentioned this thread needs to be pulled as the driver may not even want his work colleagues knowing of his or her mistake so I will report the thread to the mods.

 

[kylemore]

Maybe this thread should be pulled.

Don't see why, nobody is attempting to name the driver and it would be deplorable if they did.
The "incident" is in the public domain and I for one certainly hopes there's a technical reason for this which completely clears the driver.

 

[TDK]

Why?

It has facts, not speculation - and management are obviously aware of it as it eventually set back.

Yes, but if I had a CAT A SPAD and see the train time plastered all over here I wouldn't want everyone to know I had a major incident immediately especially the way mess room gossip spreads, completely wrong to post the time of the train, ok, so the op didn't know the reason but someone else put it up.

Oh well, I am probably gonna get another warning from the mods

 

[Whistler40145]

I appreciate how hard a job it is to Drive a train & any distractions must throw up problems like this.

 

[es373]

B is the signal being put back in error or equipment failure
C is the signal being put back in an emergency and the train is unable to stop before the signal.
D is an out of control vehicle that couldn't be stopped (ie runaway)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_passed_at_danger

Thank you.

 

[TDK]

The train was involved in a Cat A SPAD

Great post NOT

 

[transportphoto]

Was this the fault of the Driver?

If the train had just left LTV, was the train not given sufficient time to pass a certain Signal whereby it would be the Signallers fault?

This video and its series may be of help to you to understand SPADS

[youtube]eaj_KZ4zLJg[/youtube]

TP

 

[Whistler40145]

Just turning the tables here, if it isn't a Driver error & a S&C fault, does the Signaller carry the can?

 

[TDK]

FYI.

When a driver has a SPAD they are completely devastated, this is the one thing all drivers fear of happening, I have had grown men cry at interview and all they ever ask is not to publicise it but let then tell their colleagues what happened. This is a very sensitive area in the driver grade and I feel sorry for the driver concerned if the facts are correct of course.

The things this driver will have to go through now are.

Drugs and Alcohol testing
Taken off track
The SPAD on their record for 5 years plus
numerous interviews
questions regarding their private life
Human factor interviews.
Being off track for a length of time, could be as long as 6 months
Retraining

This is very traumatic for a driver and to be honest should not be discussed on an open forum
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just turning the tables here, if it isn't a Driver error & a S&C fault, does the Signaller carry the can?

Not to the same extent, they will be obviously spoken to, I have had many signals go from green to red because of signaller error, the signaller will be back at work the next day I think. To be honest, a signal reverted in error is not a safety issue like a CAT A spad is.

 

[Whistler40145]

I feel sorry for Drivers passing a SPAD. It must shock them & be mentally traumatic.

 

[Toots]

Just turning the tables here, if it isn't a Driver error & a S&C fault, does the Signaller carry the can?

It depends Tim.If a train is coming up on greens and the Signalman suddenly put the signal back to danger in error,then most certainly the Signalman would be in trouble and the Driver would be exonerated.If the Signalman put back because of an incident and the Driver spadded then no-one would be in trouble,and likewise with an S&T fault although there would be an enquiry as to why the equipment failed...

 

[AlterEgo]

FYI.

When a driver has a SPAD they are completely devastated, this is the one thing all drivers fear of happening, I have had grown men cry at interview and all they ever ask is not to publicise it but let then tell their colleagues what happened. This is a very sensitive area in the driver grade and I feel sorry for the driver concerned if the facts are correct of course.

I agree.

My father has a Category A SPAD in about 1990 when he was a Driver on the Tube. He had driven safely for ten years before that, and drove safely for another five years afterwards.

My father is a man full of stories about his time on the railways before they were no fun ( ) but he does not like talking about his SPAD. People are human and SPADs are usually the result of embarrassing errors, the kind you kick yourself for. Only two weeks prior to my father's SPAD, a well-liked new driver made the same error at the same signal, and lost his life as his train ran into a stationary train, in thick fog.

The driver involved at LTV is no doubt feeling utterly wretched today (assuming he made an error - it is foolish to speculate).

 

[Rugd1022]

That is not necessarily correct, it is down to the on call managers decision on what happens however the driver usually is not permitted to move the train so a relief driver needs to be found and this is probably the 30 minute delay cause. In circumstances like these there is an instant investigation that commences and certain things on the train cannot be touched until documented by the on call manager, this could have also been the delay, however, as the train time has been mentioned this thread needs to be pulled as the driver may not even want his work colleagues knowing of his or her mistake so I will report the thread to the mods.

As a fellow driver I am aware of this TDK, I'm just not very good at explaining things on here sometimes (I can assure you though that my communication skills at work are just as they should be, and have been put to the test many times ).

I fully concur with your other post regarding how we all view SPADs, I count myself lucky not to have had any but know several who have, and what effect it has on them.