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Intercity Express Programme going ahead

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Chafford1

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This from the Northern Echo:

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/bu...firms_Newton_Aycliffe_Hitachi_plant_on_track/


'Today the Government said it hopes to reach "financial close" on the contract within weeks.

And speaking on board a Hitachi-built Shinkansen bullet train in Tokyo, Mr Osborne confirmed that construction of the factory is due to start later this year and the first trains due to roll off the production line at Newton Aycliffe as planned in 2016.

He said: "I am here in Japan seeing for myself the technology that is behind the new trains that will be built in Britain.'
 
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HSTEd

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If only they were built using the same technology as Shinkansen
 

anthony263

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I dont mind this so long as its not the stupid 5 carriage bi-mode trains I would much prefer the wire to Cheltenham & Swansea and have the full electric versions.
 

Schnellzug

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According to this DfT release quoted in another Thread,
According to the clarifications given to bidders,
Regarding IEP...

...potential providers can assume that such a fleet will be available for these routes and/or propose their own preferred rolling stock solutions

So it rather looks as if operators will be able to choose their own stock,with the option of IeP* available.

* That's how I think they ought to spell it
 

YorkshireBear

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According to this DfT release quoted in another Thread,


So it rather looks as if operators will be able to choose their own stock,with the option of IeP* available.

* That's how I think they ought to spell it

that is interesting... we shall see over coming weeks.
 

Chafford1

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No doubt, bidders will be able to put forward their alternative proposals, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if DfT put in an order for IEP, then the winning bid will include it; no point in signing a deal with Hitachi if bidders decide not to use IEP.
 

IanXC

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No doubt, bidders will be able to put forward their alternative proposals, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if DfT put in an order for IEP, then the winning bid will include it; no point in signing a deal with Hitachi if bidders decide not to use IEP.

Except that it would allow the DfT to save face, and say that a competitive process has chosen the best stock for each route.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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According to this DfT release quoted in another Thread,
So it rather looks as if operators will be able to choose their own stock,with the option of IeP* available.
* That's how I think they ought to spell it

This only applies to the Thameslink PQQ.
I would be very surprised if the GW one offered this option.

There are a number of errors owned up to in the document: I like the one about "among the most reliable on the network" being a mistake for FGW!
 

WatcherZero

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They will do it the way they traditionally do it, the franchise will have the stock available to them and have the right to choose to use different stock but if they do they must pay for the stock to be out of service or arrange a sub lease to another franchise.
 

Rhydgaled

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Nnnooooooo!

Why are DfT so eager to sign the contract? Fair enough, sign an order for electric IEP, and get it done yesterday, but the bi-mode needs to die.

Swansea, Hull and Harrogate electrification business cases are all in the works, any one of them would impact on the need for bi-mode. With the possible exception of Harrogate, ordering IEP bi-modes is a dead-NO to any electrifcation of those routes.

The idea of bi-mode to provide a go-anywhere capability to enable all the odd destonations that only get a few direct London trains a day (or year) falls down when the bi-mode is an IEP because of the long carriges. Pembroke Dock is unlikely to see it's London service operated by IEP ever, because of the likely cost of getting the route cleared for the long coaches. If they promise not to put an IEP on the route west of Swansea (which includes the Pembroke Dock services which are so unlikely to be IEP operated anyway) or the Glouster - Severn Tunnel Junc. section or routes DMUs aren't suitable for (Paddington - Tauton/Devon/Cornwall, they wouldn't be suitable for Pembroke Dock either, even if by some miricale they do fit) then they don't need to clear those routes for the long coaches (and while they are at it might as well not clear Cardiff - Swansea for the long coaches either) they might save enough money to electrify Swindon - Cheltenham - Sev. Tun. Junc. and Cardiff - Swansea.

Personally, I think building new diesel trains for 125mph(+?) INTERCITY services is plain stupid. Seriously, I think I'd rather they keep IC125s on the Paddington to South Wales, Cheltenham and Hereford routes for another thirty years and have the wires from Swindon to Cardiff via Bristol Parkway abandoned than have new diesel IC trains (IEP bi-mode) built. Wiring to Cardiff but not Swansea would be plain daft.
 

Peter Sarf

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I feel so depressed.

We are throwing away Bombardier (OK OK for better or for worse). We are paying for trains to be built which would ideally not have much future. We could convert the 220s, 221s, and 222s to bi-mode as we need them instead - how many 220s and 221s spend ALL their time under the wires currently. Its the same old compromising/bodging crap. So now, if we end up wanting to electrify more, we will have to wait until these IEP bi-modes need replacing.

Its all been said before but there you go - the dft obviously know best :cry:.

No forward thinking.
 

dave_wm

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Not quite none, but there are only a few 221s on Virgin Trains electric-only diagrams between Birmingham and Scotland or London and the West Midlands - I'd estimate 7 or 8 diagrams...
 

Schnellzug

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I feel so depressed.

We are throwing away Bombardier (OK OK for better or for worse). We are paying for trains to be built which would ideally not have much future. We could convert the 220s, 221s, and 222s to bi-mode as we need them instead - how many 220s and 221s spend ALL their time under the wires currently. Its the same old compromising/bodging crap. So now, if we end up wanting to electrify more, we will have to wait until these IEP bi-modes need replacing.

Its all been said before but there you go - the dft obviously know best :cry:.

No forward thinking.

the idea, though, is that this will provide new fleets for GW (and EC and MML as well, is it?), so if the Voyagers were converted, something would be needed to replace them. In any case, it would never be realistically possible, even if a source of unlinmited free energy was to become available, to Electrify everywhere through services go, would it? It could be argued about whether these would be the best, or whether something else might be, but there'd be a need for new electric stock in any case.
 

junglejames

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More Hitachi rubbish. Thanks. I can just hope that it doesnt really come about.
 

Nym

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Oh aye, the project is way too far along now to scrap the whole thing, unless Bombarider's union is anything to go by RE: Siemens, but we still have the chance to scrap the Bi-Mode and stop ourselves having some Diesel LDPE stock that will be useless, or make the 22x series useless within 20 years of further electrification, and in 20 years we may not need any LDPE diesel stock.

When one may satisfy the immediate needs of the GW non-electrified fleet by electrification of a line with infinate BCR for doing so, and cascade of their stock onto the GW. And/or ordering them baby pendos (although 6 car IMO is too short) with special locos to run the N Wales, and Brum & Manc - Scotland services. Especially with the 22x series being displaced having a life expiry sooner than the Bi Mode SETs will, in 20 years there may be a much better option available than diesel to replace the few routes that still need non electrified haulage. Since if we keep up the pace, by the time the 22x are life expired, the only LDPE routes not electrified will be:
Penzance, Holyhead (Served by 390 / HSCC + Locomotive), and Inverness...

Most of XC other than Penzance / Painton / Taunton will be done, Aberdeen, Hull and Harrogate will be done, the Midland Mainline will be done or superseeded by HS2, even without, the BCR for electrification is still pretty high.
And we may have even extended to Exeter from both Waterloo and Paddington.

But as some of you may know, if I had a blank slate I'd be looking for a new generation of LHCS, the DfT believed the hype about MUs, if we must have EMUs, they must be haulable by a locomotive drivable from either end as part of the specification, not carry on board diesel engines rubbish.
It's wholly possible to have a locomotive within UK gauge that can go 100mph and meet modern emissions standards, so there's no issue there, there isn't any issue with loco attach / detach, this can be done during a station call etc etc.
LHCS would provide more interior space, a quieter journey, could be built to the same running envelope as the Mk3s so will be able to go anywhere, can also be used to address the shortage of regional DMUs by providing locomotive hauled sets for longer interregional routes such as those operated by 159s out of Waterloo onto Exeter, Bristol etc, Liverpool - Norwich (either directly or by using this new LHCS on XC and displacing), most of TPE would be suited to such stock, ATW's longer distance routes, the list goes on and on as to what LHCS would be suited for, in formations of say 4 to 5 cars with a DBSO any number of routes are suitable.
And as demand increases, we just get the manufacturer of the coaching stock to continue building more, sleeper replacement is now a doodle, make a version of this.

I've seen adverse performance quoted, but with the level of performance that can be achieved by say the Eurolight, that will take off out the blocks rather quickly thanks to it's drive system, and could easily be made more powerful for longer rakes.

I honestly, aside from the stigma of "EMUs accelerate faster" can't see any reason why we shouldn't just specify a coupling and control system, and tell derby to get on with it building coaches, to be honest, one project could replace pacers (indirectly) and HSTs with something, big, big windows, flexible, and comfy, what more do passengers want than a comfy seat, nice view, and to be able to get a seat.
 
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Rhydgaled

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When one may satisfy the immediate needs of the GW non-electrified fleet by electrification of a line with infinate BCR for doing so, and cascade of their stock onto the GW. And/or ordering them baby pendos (although 6 car IMO is too short) with special locos to run the N Wales, and Brum & Manc - Scotland services.
Is it Crewe - Chester that has an infinate case?

My opinion there is that the WCML 221s should be replaced either by 7-car Pendos or by ordering more new 11-car Pendos to cascade the current 9-car ones onto the Voyager routes.

Then GW can have 14x 5-car bi-mode 220s for Cotswolds services (I think that's enough to pair them up into a 10-car train from Oxford to PAD) and XC has a load of extra 7-car bi-mode 221s to replace the 220s GW get. Taunton (via Westbury) gets the ex-Cotswolds 180s and everywhere past Taunton keeps IC125s. That's a lot of mileage less to clear for IEP, pay for wires to Swansea and Cheltenham instead.

But as some of you may know, if I had a blank slate I'd be looking for a new generation of LHCS

I personally think there should be one anyway. The sleepers are being looked at for replacment or some form of upgrade. If the stock is replaced, it seems to me sensible to build many more of the day coaches to provide ecconomies of scale (only the actual sleeping cars are useful on sleeper trains only). The Great Western INTERCITY services beyond Tauton, and to Pembroke Dock service, are not suitable for DMU operation and I'd suggest the Paddington - Swansea services and some Paddington - Bristol fasts could be (electric) LHCS operated. That would leave the IEP EMUs on Paddington - Oxford, Paddington - Cheltenham and the slower Paddington - Bristol services. The Kings Cross - Leeds/Harrogate/Hull services could also be good with IEP EMU, but keeping LHCS just for Edinbrough isn't really likely to be worth East Coast having to maintain two different fleets.
 
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junglejames

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But as some of you may know, if I had a blank slate I'd be looking for a new generation of LHCS, the DfT believed the hype about MUs, if we must have EMUs, they must be haulable by a locomotive drivable from either end as part of the specification, not carry on board diesel engines rubbish.
It's wholly possible to have a locomotive within UK gauge that can go 100mph and meet modern emissions standards, so there's no issue there, there isn't any issue with loco attach / detach, this can be done during a station call etc etc.
LHCS would provide more interior space, a quieter journey, could be built to the same running envelope as the Mk3s so will be able to go anywhere, can also be used to address the shortage of regional DMUs by providing locomotive hauled sets for longer interregional routes such as those operated by 159s out of Waterloo onto Exeter, Bristol etc, Liverpool - Norwich (either directly or by using this new LHCS on XC and displacing), most of TPE would be suited to such stock, ATW's longer distance routes, the list goes on and on as to what LHCS would be suited for, in formations of say 4 to 5 cars with a DBSO any number of routes are suitable.
And as demand increases, we just get the manufacturer of the coaching stock to continue building more, sleeper replacement is now a doodle, make a version of this.

I've seen adverse performance quoted, but with the level of performance that can be achieved by say the Eurolight, that will take off out the blocks rather quickly thanks to it's drive system, and could easily be made more powerful for longer rakes.

I honestly, aside from the stigma of "EMUs accelerate faster" can't see any reason why we shouldn't just specify a coupling and control system, and tell derby to get on with it building coaches, to be honest, one project could replace pacers (indirectly) and HSTs with something, big, big windows, flexible, and comfy, what more do passengers want than a comfy seat, nice view, and to be able to get a seat.

Unfortunately very few people stil realise that LHCS is much better for most of this work. There is this belief that MUs are the best for everything, when in reality LHCS or HSTs are always the best for long distance Intercity work.
 

Schnellzug

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as some of you may know, if I had a blank slate I'd be looking for a new generation of LHCS, the DfT believed the hype about MUs, if we must have EMUs, they must be haulable by a locomotive drivable from either end as part of the specification, not carry on board diesel engines rubbish.
It's wholly possible to have a locomotive within UK gauge that can go 100mph and meet modern emissions standards, so there's no issue there, there isn't any issue with loco attach / detach, this can be done during a station call etc etc.
LHCS would provide more interior space, a quieter journey, could be built to the same running envelope as the Mk3s so will be able to go anywhere, can also be used to address the shortage of regional DMUs by providing locomotive hauled sets for longer interregional routes such as those operated by 159s out of Waterloo onto Exeter, Bristol etc, Liverpool - Norwich (either directly or by using this new LHCS on XC and displacing), most of TPE would be suited to such stock, ATW's longer distance routes, the list goes on and on as to what LHCS would be suited for, in formations of say 4 to 5 cars with a DBSO any number of routes are suitable.
And as demand increases, we just get the manufacturer of the coaching stock to continue building more, sleeper replacement is now a doodle, make a version of this.

I've seen adverse performance quoted, but with the level of performance that can be achieved by say the Eurolight, that will take off out the blocks rather quickly thanks to it's drive system, and could easily be made more powerful for longer rakes.

I honestly, aside from the stigma of "EMUs accelerate faster" can't see any reason why we shouldn't just specify a coupling and control system, and tell derby to get on with it building coaches, to be honest, one project could replace pacers (indirectly) and HSTs with something, big, big windows, flexible, and comfy, what more do passengers want than a comfy seat, nice view, and to be able to get a seat.

I think if we're talking about purely electric stock, then MUs might be preferable from the point of view of reliability thanks to redundancy of equipment and economising on platform space, but it'd seem to be so much simpler and saving on time & energy in the design stage and saving on complexity and maintenance just to use diesel locos to haul them away from the Wires, with push-pull operation from the cab at the other end*. Is there any real technical reason why a loco couldn't be attached & detached just a quickly and easily as coupling & uncoupling one unit from another? If brakes pipes and electrical connections and so on were incorporated in the coupler, as with MUs? The 57/3s had the same couplers as Pendos, but the reason it takes longer to attach & detach them was because they then needed to connect the brake pipes & ETS jumpers and all that kind of thing.
 

Nym

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Done some maths, in total we'd need about 1400 carriages on the intial order, then about 600 - 1000 more for growth, Mk3 and Sleeper Replacement, etc etc...

This inital order would be split between:
Great Western (HST and Portsmouth), East Coast, EMT (Mainline and Liverpool - Norwich), South West Trains (Exeter & Bristol runs), Hull Trains (They'll need leccy stock soon), Transpennine Express (possibly in lieu of EMUs, possibly not), ATW (Manchester, Holyhead & Llandudno), and god knows how much for XC...

With additionals for Scotrail (Sleeper Carriages), GW (Sleepers), Scotrail (Displacing Turbostars on insanely long routes), NXEA (Mk 3 Replacement), maybe more for Chiltern etc.

This order can quickly spiral out beyond 2000 carriages, but if we have say, including comited electrification, and EMUs for the likes of TPE and NT on these routes, 1000 by 2020, so assuming we can start production after a 3 year design, prototyping, testing etc. That would mean making 200 per year, last I checked theres five lines at Derby and they can each make was it, one carriage per week at full chat? Numbers fit, set them going on a 10+ year production cycle of this next gen of carriages, and put the locos out to tender...

RE Platform Space:

Yes, there are more passenger carriages in an EMU than LHCS with Electric Locomotive, but there is a lot more space taken up by cabinets inside the EMU housing equipment that wouldn't be there in an LHCS Carriage, so you actually have a similar amount of passenger space if you wind it out over 8 carriages or more, thanks to them cabinets not being there. They take up about 2m of space in each carriage, so 8 carriages of that means 16m, and most locomotives of the electric kind are about that long...

RE EMUs to Haul:

I wouldn't be against this, but it removes a lot of flexability and comfort from the workings, LHCS is just so much more versatile than anything else, you could run 14 carriage long units in the peaks as crowd busters if you wanted, and then passenger comfort etc etc. again. LHCS is just more comfy.
 
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Schnellzug

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The bullet trains? You mean the Shinkansen? I wouldn't have thought there'd be much to criticse there. The only high speed (i.e. over 200 km/h) stock that Bombardier make by themselves is the Talgos for Spain, and they're a rather specialised design. They co-produced the ICE3 for DB and derivatives for China, but they haven't been without their faults.
 

Nym

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You'll notice I'm only entrusting Derby to build the carriages, the locomotives will be going to our friends in Germany that develop their kit over here... Or Volkoshh, they seem to have perfected multi-generator locomotives, lets have one with 4000hp and 100mph and we're set for LDPE LHCS Diesel Locomotives :D
 

ChrisCooper

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Glad at least one other person is now singing from the same sheet as me. I've been saying for some time that many of the pro unit arguments are flawed, particularly that performance advantage doesn't take into account modern traction equipment (and also isn't such a big issue on intercity routes anyway), that with push pull and fully automatic couplers hauled stock is just as flexable and easy to operate as units, and that by the time equipment is either removed from the carriages or placed underneath there is more space for passengers and luggage which on long formations overcomes the wasted space of the loco (even more so when units are built to split as cabs and leading crumple zones take up massive amounts of space).
 

DarloRich

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Glad at least one other person is now singing from the same sheet as me. I've been saying for some time that many of the pro unit arguments are flawed, particularly that performance advantage doesn't take into account modern traction equipment (and also isn't such a big issue on intercity routes anyway), that with push pull and fully automatic couplers hauled stock is just as flexable and easy to operate as units, and that by the time equipment is either removed from the carriages or placed underneath there is more space for passengers and luggage which on long formations overcomes the wasted space of the loco (even more so when units are built to split as cabs and leading crumple zones take up massive amounts of space).

I keep banging my head against a wall about this - but then I get classed a dinosaur!

Is it beyond the whit of man to actually improve on the existing designs we have? Can we not make a fast, comfortable, quiet eco friendly train? Or will we get a sub voyager knock off piece of cr*p?
 

Schnellzug

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I keep banging my head against a wall about this - but then I get classed a dinosaur!

Is it beyond the whit of man to actually improve on the existing designs we have? Can we not make a fast, comfortable, quiet eco friendly train? Or will we get a sub voyager knock off piece of cr*p?

it seems to be a classic example of, what's the phrase, something about spoiling the ship for tuppence or something. I'm sure someone knows what it is. Anyway, they're spending billions electrificating, and then they either order something cheap themselves, or let leasing companies talk them into ordering something less than suitable (e.g. Pendos), just to save a bit of money.
 

tbtc

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We really should have a "If I had unlimited funds, this is my plan for high speed/ long distance trains" thread, to avoid other ones getting clogged up in the "fantasy" stuff.
 
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