Intercity Express Programme going ahead

[Skimble19]

If the 365s could operate at 110mph and comply with safety regulations, why not keep them until such time that the ECML has its signalling upgraded, whereby we might see faster running (140mph+) and all-new stock. As stated, on the 'last bit' of the ECML approaching KGX, the line isn't 125mph anyway.

It could be quite some time for that to be done, possibly even after HS2 is completed.

The 365s seem to do a perfectly good job right now. Can they last another 20 odd years?

I must admit, the 365s are my "favourite" stock of all at the moment - and I use them nearly daily (the only time I don't is when a decrepit 321 or a 317 turns up! ). With a good refurbishment (or even just a thorough clean and the fitting of CCTV) they would certainly last a fair while yet! As for operating at 110mph, it appears the crumple zone rule has gone (see the 350s), so if it's technically possible I'm sure it's being looked into.

 

[LE Greys]

I did read many years ago that the 365s can equal a 91 and mk4 (and beat a HST) between Kings Cross and Knebworth. So 100mph should be fine. I guess if they upgrade the slow lines to 100mph it would do the job just as well. (someone may tell me they aready are between Knebworth and Hitchin. The flyover I am sure is going to speed up the route much more than 125mph trains will.

That would mean four-aspect signalling on the slows, but it's possible. 365s can blow the doors off anything between King's Cross and Potter's Bar (light weight and good adhesion helps) and actually HSTs are slightly better off the mark than 91s, which catch up when over 50 mph. Dellas are pretty good as well. I think the slows from Woolmer Green to Hitchin vary between 70 and 80.

 

[Zoe]

365s can blow the doors off anything between King's Cross and Potter's Bar (light weight and good adhesion helps) and actually HSTs are slightly better off the mark than 91s, which catch up when over 50 mph. Dellas are pretty good as well. I think the slows from Woolmer Green to Hitchin vary between 70 and 80.

How well a 365 would do up against a 390 though?

 

[Mike C]

The 365s seem to do a perfectly good job right now. Can they last another 20 odd years?

I just echo the other comments here. 365s are a good unit, but have even more potential. I can well believe that with some sensible engineering I think 110 is not only possible but actually a good idea. The Peterborough fasts will be able to clear further north before a 125mph train catches up. At the moment, you have the timetable set so that often you'll have one of the evening fasts leaving 8 or 9 minutes before the following HST or 91. It is usually the St Neots to Huntingdon stretch before that following train has caught up. This is an inconvenient place, because if the following train is onlt 1 to 2 mins late, the 365 ends up on the down slow out of Huntingdon and has to wait at Conington for the HST/91 to pass. With 110 capability, it could be berthed at Peterborough by the time the HST/91 has caught up.

If I was to give the 365s a mid life overhaul, I'd regear/motor them for 110 (assuming infrastructure testing proved positive, and there was budget available), and install air conditioning. For a semi-long distance commuting unit to last another 20 years, I think that is essential. Anyone who has sat on a 365 at King's Cross waiting to depart just sent from Hornsey on a scortching hot August day will know that the ball vents are not up to the job and the windows help a little, but only when moving. When there are delays and the train stops, it's like being on the tube.

I'd also do the requisite re-carpeting and re-covering of seats, or installing new seats if regs required.

But yeah - all in all, they are fantastic trains to commute in and the potential is clear for a long future on their current routes with some thought and good engineering.

 

[jon0844]

It's such a shame that the timing of their construction (politics/privatisation) meant no more were made. We could have had these (with slight variations interior wise) quite happily operating all over the UK, and a standardised fleet would have made cascading much easier now - not least being able to run on AC or DC. Presumably it would have also made a real difference for drivers being able to sign less classes.

The ball vents seem to be disabled (broken?) on some 365s, so on a really hot day (and believe me, if they don't open the windows before leaving Hornsey to bring into KGX, it's not until the train is moving quite quickly beyond Finsbury Park that they become anywhere near comfortable - even more so for anyone standing in the well shielded vestibules.

The lack of aircon is a real problem in the summer, although last year there wasn't many really hot days.

 

[LE Greys]

It's such a shame that the timing of their construction (politics/privatisation) meant no more were made. We could have had these (with slight variations interior wise) quite happily operating all over the UK, and a standardised fleet would have made cascading much easier now - not least being able to run on AC or DC. Presumably it would have also made a real difference for drivers being able to sign less classes.

The ball vents seem to be disabled (broken?) on some 365s, so on a really hot day (and believe me, if they don't open the windows before leaving Hornsey to bring into KGX, it's not until the train is moving quite quickly beyond Finsbury Park that they become anywhere near comfortable - even more so for anyone standing in the well shielded vestibules.

The lack of aircon is a real problem in the summer, although last year there wasn't many really hot days.

We almost have, Adtranz turned the design into the Electrostar and Turbostar families. Pity they didn't keep the ball vents though, I'd like to see something like that as a standard feature on new stock.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure someone somewhere on the forum posted the the latest specifications for railway vehicles (in terms of crashworthiness requirements) and there was no longer any mention of trains rated for service faster than 100mph needed dedicated crumple zones. This is why the 350s are being cleared for 110mph running without the provision of extra crumple zones in the design. However, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I think it was me quoting the group standards. It wasn't that the crumple zone was no longer required, that is still part of the crash worthiness requirement, especially for the driver. What changed is that they removed the explicit paragraph banning [1] passengers and other train crew from being carried in the front third of a leading carriage of a train doing above 100mph.
[1] In fact this was never a 100% ban, as it was written train builders were able to negotiate alternative solutions, but seemingly none did...

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it was me quoting the group standards.

Ahh okay thanks for the clarification.

 

[Bald Rick]

The lack of aircon is a real problem in the summer, although last year there wasn't many really hot days.

There is aircon on these. At least for the very front two seats in every unit

 

[ainsworth74]

There is aircon on these. At least for the very front two seats in every unit

And surely both the very rear seats as well

 

[aylesbury]

In the May issue ofModern Railways the depots on the GW main line are announced as going to be built,so it looks like the horrible thing is going to be built.It is also said in DAFT speak that money will change hands in May ,allegedly!But at least a couple of franchises are being told to select their own rolling stock,probably means they keep whats there already,and this is progress?

 

[swt_passenger]

In the May issue ofModern Railways the depots on the GW main line are announced as going to be built,so it looks like the horrible thing is going to be built. It is also said in DAFT speak that money will change hands in May ,allegedly! But at least a couple of franchises are being told to select their own rolling stock,probably means they keep whats there already,and this is progress?

The only recent change seems to be that IEP is no longer being specified for Cambridge/Kings Lynn fast services.

The new GW franchisee isn't getting the option not to use IEP though, as far as the published info goes.

AFAICT those are the only areas of current franchise competition that concern IEP - ECML's franchising is yet to start...

 

[jon0844]

There is aircon on these. At least for the very front two seats in every unit

Hence the smiley face, from the driver.

 

[A-driver]

The 365s can do 110 and were cleared for it when they were tested for the Doncaster stoppers before hull trains got the paths instead. The first class section at the front must be locked out though for crash worthiness.

I fail to see what use 125mph running would be for Cambridge services anyway-line speed on the digswell bottleneck is only 115 on the down and 105 up. The only section of 125 is between woolmer green and Hitchin, when you take into account acceleration and deceleration for the speeds (the Hitchin flyover is still going to require deceleration from 125) it's not really going to make much difference to timings and from what I hear the Thameslink stock will be good for 110 anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

I fail to see what use 125mph running would be for Cambridge services anyway-line speed on the digswell bottleneck is only 115 on the down and 105 up. The only section of 125 is between woolmer green and Hitchin, when you take into account acceleration and deceleration for the speeds (the Hitchin flyover is still going to require deceleration from 125) it's not really going to make much difference to timings and from what I hear the Thameslink stock will be good for 110 anyway.

You really ought to let the authors of the ECML 2016 capacity review know about that then. From what you are saying, their published proposals must be mistaken, and you could probably save them £millions...

 

[Skimble19]

The 365s can do 110 and were cleared for it when they were tested for the Doncaster stoppers before hull trains got the paths instead. The first class section at the front must be locked out though for crash worthiness.

whilst I know they were testing along that way, I'd never heard anything about this before? Who was going to operate these services / when was this?

 

[HSTEd]

whilst I know they were testing along that way, I'd never heard anything about this before? Who was going to operate these services / when was this?

FCC wanted to run all stops trains to Doncaster.

This did not go down well with many who saw it as an attempt to prepare the way for the ECML to go teh way of the West Coast where Virgin has withdrawn many stops from many stations citing the London Midland trains make them "unneccesary".

 

[A-driver]

You really ought to let the authors of the ECML 2016 capacity review know about that then. From what you are saying, their published proposals must be mistaken, and you could probably save them £millions...

Well I'm just saying that it seems odd to invest in 125mph trains when there is only a short stretch at that speed and once past Hitchin they won't get over 90.

I never believe rumours about these sorts of things until they are true anyway-so often all changes at the last minute-as seems to be happening here with the Cambridge trains.

 

[tbtc]

FCC wanted to run all stops trains to Doncaster.

This did not go down well with many who saw it as an attempt to prepare the way for the ECML to go teh way of the West Coast where Virgin has withdrawn many stops from many stations citing the London Midland trains make them "unneccesary".

It would have made sense and given Grantham/ Newark etc a much more regular service than they had at the time (Eureka has ironed out much of the problems since then).

 

[HSTEd]

Well I'm just saying that it seems odd to invest in 125mph trains when there is only a short stretch at that speed and once past Hitchin they won't get over 90.

I never believe rumours about these sorts of things until they are true anyway-so often all changes at the last minute-as seems to be happening here with the Cambridge trains.

Perhaps a better place to spend upgrade money would be trying to get the speed limit north of Hitchin up to 100/110mph before we start ordering IEPs.

 

[RobShipway]

Last I checked there were some places on the East Coast rated at 140mph and I was under the impression that the Class 91's do that speed in those sections?

 

[HSTEd]

Last I checked there were some places on the East Coast rated at 140mph and I was under the impression that the Class 91's do that speed in those sections?

Nope, can't.

There was testing just before privatisation (as part of the Cl91 acceptance trials) and there are reports of an electrodiesel formation composed of a Cl43 power car, 8 Mark 3s and a Cl91 may have done 150mph+ down stoke bank.

But the flashing green aspect means nothing now, it was just left in because it would cost too much to take it out of the wiring circuitry.
125mph is the limit everywhere not on HS1.

 

[RobShipway]

Nope, can't.

There was testing just before privatisation (as part of the Cl91 acceptance trials) and there are reports of an electrodiesel formation composed of a Cl43 power car, 8 Mark 3s and a Cl91 may have done 150mph+ down stoke bank.

But the flashing green aspect means nothing now, it was just left in because it would cost too much to take it out of the wiring circuitry.
125mph is the limit everywhere not on HS1.

Okay, than someone needs to contact Video125 as there Video filmed in the days of GNER on the ECML actually shows the class 91 doing 140 mph down Stoke Bank and they state that this is normal for the service and has been since the class 91's where introduced.

 

[A-driver]

Okay, than someone needs to contact Video125 as there Video filmed in the days of GNER on the ECML actually shows the class 91 doing 140 mph down Stoke Bank and they state that this is normal for the service and has been since the class 91's where introduced.

Don't believe it does-it mentions that it was tested at 140 and has the flashing green but does not show them doing 140-they don't actually show a speedo in their films anyway. 125 is the limit for a class 91 unless specially authorised.

 

[Yew]

. 125 is the limit for a class 91 unless specially authorised.

does special authorisation come often? Is it like the sleeper where they are supposed to do 80, but can go 100 if they are running late?

 

[Nym]

Sleepers can be authorised over 80 because it's an operational limit, not a linespeed limit. 125 is the max linespeed on the whole ECML.

 

[A-driver]

does special authorisation come often? Is it like the sleeper where they are supposed to do 80, but can go 100 if they are running late?

No, specially authorised would be empties on some kind of test, not in passenger service.

I havnt heard that about the sleeper before, I doubt it is authorisation in the same way though. I thought it was limited to 75 but it may be more it is timed at 75 to prevent it catching things up but can run higher.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I assume from what you lot are saying that the Intercity 225 sets are still capable of 140mph (ie. they haven't had a limiter put on) but the drivers aren't allowed to take them above 125mph.

 

[jon0844]

I assume from what you lot are saying that the Intercity 225 sets are still capable of 140mph (ie. they haven't had a limiter put on) but the drivers aren't allowed to take them above 125mph.

I'd agree with that, having personally been on a Mk4 that has done 140mph - which I think has been concluded was done without permission. This was some time ago (2003) so I doubt anyone will get into trouble for it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Speeds in excess of 125mph can only be done in the UK now with in-cab signalling.
Only HS1 and its stock (373 and 395) is so equipped (with TVM430).

140mph on parts of the WCML with Pendolinos (which are equipped with in-cab TASS) might be possible if NR ever raise the line speed above 125.