Intercity Express Programme going ahead

[daniel3982]

All this talk of adding pantograph cars to the Voyagers, will it have an adverse affect on them running diesel? And what sort of speed will it be able to achieve when drawing power (carrying heavy diesel engines around)?

 

[DXMachina]

All this talk of adding pantograph cars to the Voyagers, will it have an adverse affect on them running diesel? And what sort of speed will it be able to achieve when drawing power (carrying heavy diesel engines around)?

An electric power car would mean massive savings on fuel and emissions EVEN if it needed to keep one of its many 750hp diesels running at the same time or just during acceleration... Apparently they can keep to time with a failed diesel engine on one carriage, the panto car would just be like a regular carriage without a diesel pod in that regard

And frankly, if a Cl.91 can keep 10 MK4s going at 125, I'm sure a single power car can lug 4 carriages and a few engines at a decent rate, considering it'd have a lot more traction motors

 

[sprinterguy]

And frankly, if a Cl.91 can keep 10 MK4s going at 125, I'm sure a single power car can lug 4 carriages and a few engines at a decent rate, considering it'd have a lot more traction motors

Isn't it the idea that the pantograph car will feed power to the traction motors on the existing vehicles? As such, performance will be the same whether running on diesel or electric, as it will be the same number of axles being powered.

 

[HSTEd]

Isn't it the idea that the pantograph car will feed power to the traction motors on the existing vehicles? As such, performance will be the same whether running on diesel or electric, as it will be the same number of axles being powered.

As I understand it yes.

All this means is that performance will go from ludicrously obscene

To just obscene.

 

[daniel3982]

It's just interesting that the idea of running the IEP with a diesel engine under the wires is considered ludicrous but you don't see so much criticism of the idea of a Voyager doing the same once the pantograph has been fitted. Hopefully in the near future the main cross-country routes will be electrified & they can be cascaded to other duties elsewhere, or the diesel engines removed in the same way tilt has been from AXC's 221s.

Anyway

With Kings Cross - Cambridge - Kings Lynn services going over to IEP does this mean they will be merged into the East Coast franchise?

Is there an RUS for the IEP or a similar type document detailing the specs of the train? Would be interested to read it.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's just interesting that the idea of running the IEP with a diesel engine under the wires is considered ludicrous but you don't see so much criticism of the idea of a Voyager doing the same once the pantograph has been fitted.

Voyagers are already underfloor-engined DMUs with sky-high fuel consumption. There are enough miles of unelectrified Intercity route for the class 22x series and the 180s to need their diesel engines. Given their dreadful fuel ecconomy, allowing them to run on electricity where OHLE is available would save quite a lot of diesel. However an EMU, which IEP could be, would be MUCH better still, it just requires a lot more OHLE. Since 22xs can't really be converted to pure-EMU because electrification can only happen so fast bi-mode is probably the best option for those trains. However, electrification can progress fast enough for IEP to be a pure-EMU, much better than anything having to lug diesel engines around with it. An added complication with IEP is the carraige length. You have to specially clear routes for the things, so just provide sufficent clearance on electrified routes only and you don't need a single diesel engine.

So, adding a pantograph to a classs 22x unit would improve it, since it already has diesel engines. Adding diesel engines to an EMU (eg. IEP) however would do the opposite of improving it.

 

[DarloRich]

It's just interesting that the idea of running the IEP with a diesel engine under the wires is considered ludicrous but you don't see so much criticism of the idea of a Voyager doing the same once the pantograph has been fitted. Hopefully in the near future the main cross-country routes will be electrified & they can be cascaded to other duties elsewhere, or the diesel engines removed in the same way tilt has been from AXC's 221s.

Anyway

With Kings Cross - Cambridge - Kings Lynn services going over to IEP does this mean they will be merged into the East Coast franchise?

Is there an RUS for the IEP or a similar type document detailing the specs of the train? Would be interested to read it.

The tilt hasn’t been removed from the XC voyagers! It has had a low tech remedy fitted - A massive bit of waste metal has been welded in to stop the tilt happening (AFAIK!)

Much as I am pleased that the IEP will be fabricated in Darlo I still think it is a stupid, biased, expensive idea put forward by idiots.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there an RUS for the IEP or a similar type document detailing the specs of the train? Would be interested to read it.

There's the original invitation to tender stuff, but you'll only find it using the DfT's archived site:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/iepinvitationtotender/

There's no way of knowing what subsequent changes have been negotiated, although it's known that the ratio of traction types and lengths is completely different.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Government has substantially changed what it wanted from the original tender, thats not much use anymore really.

 

[LE Greys]

Much as I am pleased that the IEP will be fabricated in Darlo I still think it is a stupid, biased, expensive idea put forward by idiots.

That's probably true now, but then that's what tends to happen when the wrong sort of people get ideas about the railways. IEP was originally (as HST-2) intended to replace the HST. If they had stuck to the spec and essentially designed an updated HST with conventional coaches/trailers designed to be compatible with existing coaches, then some might be complaining that we were being "too conservative" when most other countries were going for MU stock. Instead, we went the other way.

 

[Yew]

There's the original invitation to tender stuff, but you'll only find it using the DfT's archived site:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/iepinvitationtotender/

There's no way of knowing what subsequent changes have been negotiated, although it's known that the ratio of traction types and lengths is completely different.

That looks more like an exam specification than a train specification...

 

[swt_passenger]

The Government has substantially changed what it wanted from the original tender, thats not much use anymore really.

Isn't that what I just pointed out under the link?

 

[SprinterMan]

The tilt hasn’t been removed from the XC voyagers! It has had a low tech remedy fitted - A massive bit of waste metal has been welded in to stop the tilt happening (AFAIK!)

Much as I am pleased that the IEP will be fabricated in Darlo I still think it is a stupid, biased, expensive idea put forward by idiots.

The hydraulic rams that control thetikt have been removed and replaced with solid metal bars, and the electronics associated with tilting has been partially removed, with the rest isolated.

 

[WatcherZero]

Isn't that what I just pointed out under the link?

You implied their might be minor differences, I said it has changed so fundamentally as to no longer be useful even for illustrative purposes with that caution.

 

[RobShipway]

That's probably true now, but then that's what tends to happen when the wrong sort of people get ideas about the railways. IEP was originally (as HST-2) intended to replace the HST. If they had stuck to the spec and essentially designed an updated HST with conventional coaches/trailers designed to be compatible with existing coaches, then some might be complaining that we were being "too conservative" when most other countries were going for MU stock. Instead, we went the other way.

The thing that gets me is that IEP will not totally replace the HST now as you will still need some to be doing the routes such as London Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance.

Maybe, it is becasue of the Government electrifying the GWML now but that was thought about before the Government brought IEP from Hitachi.

This is why I would have thought that rather than go with something like the Hitachi trains Hybrid's which have never been tried or tested before, it would have even if only in the short term been better to go with something like the E-Voyagers or adding a battery car with a Pantograph attached to the HSTS would have been better?

The reason I am saying the above is I fear that the same will happen to IEP that happened to the APT trains in the 1970s/1980s and we really should have learned lessons from that experience?

 

[Zoe]

If they had stuck to the spec and essentially designed an updated HST with conventional coaches/trailers designed to be compatible with existing coaches

I'm not sure this was ever the plan as even in the original specification it was a requirement for the train to be able to split en-route and this isn't easy to do if it was just an updated HST.

 

[anthony263]

Well I have written to my local MP as have many other highlighting the problems with IEP and the fact that it going to cost way more than some of the other alternatives and that if IEP was scrapped an replaced by one of the alternatives they money saved could help pay for extending the wires to Swansea.

If you can write or email your local MP then I suggest you please do so and hopefully we may be able to stop this white elephant in its tracks.

Further information on WNXX if you are a member or if not perhaps register

 

[Rhydgaled]

Well I have written to my local MP as have many other highlighting the problems with IEP and the fact that it going to cost way more than some of the other alternatives and that if IEP was scrapped an replaced by one of the alternatives they money saved could help pay for extending the wires to Swansea.

Would your area by covered by Geraint Davies MP? Apparently he is going to be holding a conference about electrification at Swansea University on Friday, May 11, see here. A bit 11th hour though, IEP might be sealed & signed, though not delivered, by then.

Is his conference open to the public? If so I'd like to have a chance to try to air my idea of using push-pull 23m coaches (perhaps mark3s, perhaps mark4s) to maintain the services west of Swansea without needing to clear routes west of Cardiff for 26m coaches to an audience who might listen (DaFT don't seem to want to). I also have an e-mail from somebody at DaFT dated 14/4/2011 which said the route to Penzance would be cleared for IEP too, that wouldn't come cheap. I wonder if they have dropped that though since IEP won't be going to Penzance in current plans (but, madly, the GW franchise consultation suggests they will run 1 trip a day to Paignton with an IEP, all that route clearance for 1tpd).

 

[Failed Unit]

They appear to be willing to clear IEP north of Edinburgh for a very limited number of trains so who knows!

 

[starrymarkb]

Are there not plans afoot for a potential second batch of IEP, I know they said HSTs will be refurbished, but that would be a short term thing (less then 10 years)

 

[tbtc]

if IEP was scrapped an replaced by one of the alternatives they money saved could help pay for extending the wires to Swansea

That'd be fair enough if Swansea was the only place getting long distance IEP diesel trains from London.

But you'd still have plenty of places beyond the wires requiring diesel haulage one way or the other.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres a second Hitachi potential suppliers conference on the 27th June and word is it will be signed before then. Signing was meant to have been December last year but was held up by planning permissions for depot alterations and arranging financing. Hitachi saying they will send the dozers into the factory site the moment the contracts signed and some work on the site will begin early next year ahead of full production commencing in 2015/16

 

[Martin222002]

Theres a second Hitachi potential suppliers conference on the 27th June and word is it will be signed before then. Signing was meant to have been December last year but was held up by planning permissions for depot alterations and arranging financing. Hitachi saying they will send the dozers into the factory site the moment the contracts signed and some work on the site will begin early next year ahead of full production commencing in 2015/16

To my knowledge the contract is now due to be signed in May.

 

[RobShipway]

That'd be fair enough if Swansea was the only place getting long distance IEP diesel trains from London.

But you'd still have plenty of places beyond the wires requiring diesel haulage one way or the other.

Yes, like Exeter, Penzance and Plymouth.

Theres a second Hitachi potential suppliers conference on the 27th June and word is it will be signed before then. Signing was meant to have been December last year but was held up by planning permissions for depot alterations and arranging financing. Hitachi saying they will send the dozers into the factory site the moment the contracts signed and some work on the site will begin early next year ahead of full production commencing in 2015/16

But initial IEP trains will be built in Japan and from then onwards, the factory here will be placing pre built bodyshells from Japan on the required Chasiss and wiring up.

 

[anthony263]

Would your area by covered by Geraint Davies MP? Apparently he is going to be holding a conference about electrification at Swansea University on Friday, May 11, see here. A bit 11th hour though, IEP might be sealed & signed, though not delivered, by then.

Is his conference open to the public? If so I'd like to have a chance to try to air my idea of using push-pull 23m coaches (perhaps mark3s, perhaps mark4s) to maintain the services west of Swansea without needing to clear routes west of Cardiff for 26m coaches to an audience who might listen (DaFT don't seem to want to). I also have an e-mail from somebody at DaFT dated 14/4/2011 which said the route to Penzance would be cleared for IEP too, that wouldn't come cheap. I wonder if they have dropped that though since IEP won't be going to Penzance in current plans (but, madly, the GW franchise consultation suggests they will run 1 trip a day to Paignton with an IEP, all that route clearance for 1tpd).

No he isnt my local MP.

As for teh conference I am not sure if it is open to members of teh public.

I would very ,much like to attend and listen to what is being said

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes, like Exeter, Penzance and Plymouth.

And more pressingly for this first order of IEPs, the likes of Inverness, Aberdeen, Harrogate and Lincoln.

 

[RobShipway]

Would your area by covered by Geraint Davies MP? Apparently he is going to be holding a conference about electrification at Swansea University on Friday, May 11, see here. A bit 11th hour though, IEP might be sealed & signed, though not delivered, by then.

Is his conference open to the public? If so I'd like to have a chance to try to air my idea of using push-pull 23m coaches (perhaps mark3s, perhaps mark4s) to maintain the services west of Swansea without needing to clear routes west of Cardiff for 26m coaches to an audience who might listen (DaFT don't seem to want to). I also have an e-mail from somebody at DaFT dated 14/4/2011 which said the route to Penzance would be cleared for IEP too, that wouldn't come cheap. I wonder if they have dropped that though since IEP won't be going to Penzance in current plans (but, madly, the GW franchise consultation suggests they will run 1 trip a day to Paignton with an IEP, all that route clearance for 1tpd).

With regards to IEP to Penzance, the work is probaly going to be done so that if or when the HST's to Penzance can be replaced which will probably be around 2035 clearance would all ready be available. It also has to be remembered that the HST's have been ruiing on the GWML since 1976 and are all ready getting close to be 30 years old, so by 2035 they will be getting on for about 50 years old and certainly by then would need to be retired as they would not be covered by any disability act that maybe in force by that time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And more pressingly for this first order of IEPs, the likes of Inverness, Aberdeen, Harrogate and Lincoln.

True.

 

[Zoe]

It also has to be remembered that the HST's have been ruiing on the GWML since 1976 and are all ready getting close to be 30 years old, so by 2035 they will be getting on for about 50 years old

They are over 30 years old now and some will be 40 by the time the IEP is introduced. They will be almost 60 by 2035.

Are there not plans afoot for a potential second batch of IEP, I know they said HSTs will be refurbished, but that would be a short term thing (less then 10 years)

Only a small number of diesel 125s will remain on the network, and they will be serving the route down to Penzance in Cornwall. All the other 125s will be replaced by bi-mode trains under today’s proposal. I cannot say for how long those diesel 125s will remain on the network. There are no specific proposals to replace them at the moment, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the intercity express programme was always conceived as a commitment to a firm fleet of trains as the first phase, with options on further trains for future phases. It will therefore be for my successors at some point in the future to consider whether the remaining InterCity 125s should in due course be replaced by bi-mode IEPs.

In addition to the London to Plymouth/Penzance route though HSTs are to be retained on the London to Nottingham route although electrification is a possibility here.

 

[Rhydgaled]

No he isnt my local MP.

As for teh conference I am not sure if it is open to members of teh public.

I would very ,much like to attend and listen to what is being said

If you find out whether it is open to the public, please let me know.

And more pressingly for this first order of IEPs, the likes of Inverness, Aberdeen, Harrogate and Lincoln.

Which is just 7 services, probably one diagram each. Nothing like the proposed order for 35 bi-mode units that was the plan sometime in the past year or two. If the timetable is designed carefully, I think five class 67s could handle the non-electrified sections of everything from London to Inverness, Aberdeen and Fort William (the ECML services to the former two AND the sleepers to all three) in a given day. You'd also need two 67s further south, one to drag the Harrogate train (though the local council are trying to get the line electrified) and one for the Lincon service.

With regards to IEP to Penzance, the work is probaly going to be done so that if or when the HST's to Penzance can be replaced which will probably be around 2035 clearance would all ready be available.

But there is plenty of time between now and 2035 to electrify to Penzance, and the new electric stock needed then needn't have 26 metre coaches. Clearing non-electrified routes, other than a few for dragged diversions, for IEP is DaFT.

 

[Zoe]

But there is plenty of time between now and 2035 to electrify to Penzance, and the new electric stock needed then needn't have 26 metre coaches. Clearing non-electrified routes, other than a few for dragged diversions, for IEP is DaFT.

Where is the business case for electrifying west of Plymouth though? It's only one train per hour.