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Intercity Express Programme going ahead

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Rhydgaled

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Couple of posters on WNXX seem to tout the idea of a 390 traction package under a 180 style body as a better alternative to the currently mooted IEP, and it makes sense to me.
As much as the proposed Alstom alternative seems to make sense, alot of time seems to have gone into the Hitachi IEP, they are prefered bidder and are going to build an assembly plant in the UK (that is the big clincher, why I don't think IEP as a whole will go away). There is, I hope, still a little time to make DfT decide to order only EMUs, but my uninformed opinion is that Hitachi IEP in some form is now inevitable unless the government decide they can't afford any new trains at all.

Acceleration wise yes MUs are quicker, but i dont care about acceleration. We are on about Intercity services here. Acceleration does not matter much. Ive yet to hear any passengers complain about the acceleration of their 225 set that they are travelling on.
This is a good point. In fact, acceleration could be seen as a bad thing on Intercity services. Personally, I think alot of the 22xs and diesel IEP ability to accelerate as fast as an electric train is down to increased power rather than distributed traction (though that might be helping, but remember the acceleration advantage from distributed traction tends to be greater starting off, once you are up to, say 90mph, some LHCS trains might actually be able to accelerate from 90 to 125 faster than some MUs). That increased power and hence acceleration comes at a cost, increased fuel consuption. I consider that to be a big negative and I don't consider the increased acceleration to be worth the extra fuel consumption.

In my opinion DMUs are never suitable for Intercity services. Some, for example the Pembroke Coast Express, would be equally suited to an EMU or a LHCS solution, but a DMU would, in my opinion, not be acceptable. There are a few cases on the Intercity network where I believe LHCS would be a better option than an EMU. However, I admit these are few in number and an EMU would not be far off being suitable, so if we didn't have the sleepers to make up the numbers, then it might not be worth having a fleet of LHCS. However, I think the few services where LHCS is better than EMU, plus the sleepers plus perhaps the odd route where LHCS and EMU are totally equal make LHCS an important component of the UK's train fleet.

You may not care, operators do. Whats the point of having any power if you can't put it down when it starts to drizzle? Distributed traction yields consistent performance benefits day in day out. Any high end energy consumption benefits from one loco are offset as soon as conditions are anything but perfect.
I was reading the Foster review of IEP earlier. This did comment that seasonal poor rail adhesion conditions can have an impact on the effectiveness of LHCS versus EMU. However, the report also states that: "an alternative, well established practice for similar long-distance services across Europe is to use a high powered electric locomotive fitted with sanding equipment (which lays sand on the rail beneath the wheels of the locomotive, improving adhesion when it is low) and conventional coaching stock which allows variable length trains to operate".

There are counter-arguments for most of the aspects being debated. It appears to me that there are suituations where LHCS has certain advantages over MUs and vice-versa. Also, some of the aspects where MUs win might be more important in some suituations, but in other suituations the (different)advantages of LHCS may be more important.


seeing as no-one is going to build any more DMUs, this is the argument worth concentrating on.
Now, we come to what should be the bigger debate. Rather than arguing as we are about LHCS versus MUs, we should be trying to ensure that no-one is going to build any more DMUs. Right now, it looks as if DfT might be going to sign on the dotted line for the IEP bi-mode, which is (essentially) a DMU. The Great Western franchise consultation seems, to my supprise, have re-introduced 8-car bi-modes and lost 5-car electrics. The weekday IEP diagrams listed in the document are:
  • 26x 5-car bi-mode
  • 11x 8-car electric
  • 12x 8-car bi-mode
Now, going from the journey time plotted into a sort-of timetable, I estimate that 4tph to Bristol Temple Meads is 14 diagrams (7 via Bath, 7 via Parkway). Now, of course some extend to Weston-Super-Mare so would be bi-mode, but that still looks as if the number IEP EMU diagrams is only just sufficent for the Bristol service. What happens to the Cardiffs and the Oxford fasts that don't extend to Worcester? What happens also if the case for Swansea electrification is proved. Will it be a case of "sorry, we've ordered your diesel trains now, so we won't be putting the wires up even though you've proved the case as it would mean throwing several £million worth of brand new diesel engines straight in the bin"? I hope that 'finantial close' just means commiting to buy IEP trains from Hitachi and that whether these will have diesel engines or not is still open. At least finantial close of East Coast's portion of IEP appears to have been put back to 2013, so perhaps the desisions on Hull and Harrogate electrification will have been made by then to inform the make-up of the fleet.

The GW franchise consultation also mentions using IEPs for one train per day to Paignton and Carmarthen, a waste of guage clearance monies which could be used to pay for wires to Swansea or Cheltenham.

There's also the issue of lost capacity with a 5-car IEP, 309 versus the 474 of a low-density FGW IC125. Ok for the Cotswolds line maybe, but I don't see that needing 26 diagrams. Where do they intend to deploy the 49 diagrams listed above?
 
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Hydro

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I was reading the Foster review of IEP earlier. This did comment that seasonal poor rail adhesion conditions can have an impact on the effectiveness of LHCS versus EMU. However, the report also states that: "an alternative, well established practice for similar long-distance services across Europe is to use a high powered electric locomotive fitted with sanding equipment (which lays sand on the rail beneath the wheels of the locomotive, improving adhesion when it is low) and conventional coaching stock which allows variable length trains to operate".

Why did a review looking to European practices need to be undertaken when the UK has used high powered electrics for intercity work since the late 1950's? It wouldn't take much to think "Ah, yes, fitting some sanders to a modern equivalent would be tip top".

Does the current transport establishment believe the last few decades of railways in the UK didn't exist and we are starting from zero?
 

HSTEd

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Because British practice was undertaken by a nationalised industry and must therefore be inefficient.
 

WatcherZero

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Word is the contract has now been split into two halves, the Great Western half to be signed this year and the East Coast half to be signed next year.
 

Failed Unit

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Word is the contract has now been split into two halves, the Great Western half to be signed this year and the East Coast half to be signed next year.

Or hopefully the East Coast bit will never be signed :lol: By the time the 180s are expired hopefully we will have more electrification and the Aberdeen / Inverness will be dragged.
 

IanXC

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Hmm approaching 3 months on, I hope that financial close is further away than it was then!
 

anthony263

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There was talk of the contract being signed in May.

Roger ford is supposed to be trying to expose the problems with the HItachi IEP in the national press but hasnt been getting much luck although with the midea currently looking for any excuse to bash the government this may be an opportunity.

With a lot in the rail industry saying they dont want this Hitachi offering how about ATOC get their act together and speak with one voice together with Alstom showing off their alternative.
 

Failed Unit

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But will the alternative from Alstom just be the Pendo :-/

Ironically the 395 could be a solution for some of the IEPs problems, London - Newark? They just need a quick reliable loco to drag it away from the wires. I am sure London - Lincoln would be as quick even with the loco attachment.
 

anthony263

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But will the alternative from Alstom just be the Pendo :-/

Ironically the 395 could be a solution for some of the IEPs problems, London - Newark? They just need a quick reliable loco to drag it away from the wires. I am sure London - Lincoln would be as quick even with the loco attachment.

Too be honest I agree with your suggestion the class 395 would be ideal if the doors were moved to a slightly different position at the end of the carriages and with a slightly different interior layout with better seats.

All they would need to do it to perhaps add some buffers to allow a diesel locomotive to hook up quickly to haul the units away from the wires would be much better than designing these stupid bi-mode trains and would probably be cheaper to buy and operate as well.
 

ainsworth74

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But will the alternative from Alstom just be the Pendo

It has been mentioned on the forum that apparently Alstom would offer a 180 style body shell with the 390s traction package under the floor and a locomotive to haul it away from the wires.

All they would need to do it to perhaps add some buffers to allow a diesel locomotive to hook up quickly to haul the units away from the wires would be much better than designing these stupid bi-mode trains and would probably be cheaper to buy and operate as well.

Surely you'd want to be using auto-couplers (for speed and avoiding the need for more manpower) which wouldn't need buffers?
 

Mike C

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Surely you'd want to be using auto-couplers (for speed and avoiding the need for more manpower) which wouldn't need buffers?

Agreed - it'd be better to fit the locos with Scharfenberg/Dellners as required rather than the other way round. Drag the thing into the 21st century. Pun intended.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I thought for a minute that Cameron had signed the IEP contract while he was in Japan this week, but apparently not (this time at least).
However they were talking complicated trade deals (eg nuclear decommissioning) and I wouldn't be surprised if the order with Hitachi is matched to a Japanese order for an equivalent project with British content (but not rail related).
We shall see ...
 

anthony263

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I thought for a minute that Cameron had signed the IEP contract while he was in Japan this week, but apparently not (this time at least).
However they were talking complicated trade deals (eg nuclear decommissioning) and I wouldn't be surprised if the order with Hitachi is matched to a Japanese order for an equivalent project with British content (but not rail related).
We shall see ...

Never know you could have the Japaneese ordering Electrostars from Bombardier.
 

Rhydgaled

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Political cost of lost Hitachi train factory in the north east = ?

I don't think IEP is going to go away, sadly I think we will have to buy Intercity trains form Hitachi now. Now please, please, please, somebody make sure that Hitachi don't put ANY diesel engines in the Intercity trains we buy from them.
 

HSTEd

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23m vehicle intercity interior Cl395 would be nice.

Shinkansen level acceleration
 

junglejames

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All this talk of 395s. No no and even more no's. 375s are better than that Japanese rubbish.
An interior which seems quite cheaply put together, and such a poor ride you wouldnt want to be on the thing for any length of time. Crikey, our 30 plus yr old Mk3s provide a better ride than 395s. Progress? Definitely.
In fact, the 395s rival the Mk3s for vestibule noise levels.

Anything from Hitachi will be a mistake. Whether its bi modes or not.
A 180 style body on top of a 390 style traction package is the best option out of those mentioned. OK it still wont rival something like the 225, but it'll be 1000000000 times better than anything Ive seen from Hitachi.
 

jopsuk

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I used the 395s on the "open" section of HS1 for the first time at the weekend (I've previously used them between london and Ebbdsfleet and on the north Kent line) and was pleased with how smooth and quiet the ride was...
 

Failed Unit

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I used the 395s on the "open" section of HS1 for the first time at the weekend (I've previously used them between london and Ebbdsfleet and on the north Kent line) and was pleased with how smooth and quiet the ride was...

I found it very rough in the tunnels heading towards St Pancras, I know this is a known problem, so I guess the set I was on wasn't fixed yet. But I have no problems with them out the tunnels.
 

Rhydgaled

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All this talk of 395s. No no and even more no's. 375s are better than that Japanese rubbish.
An interior which seems quite cheaply put together, and such a poor ride you wouldnt want to be on the thing for any length of time. Crikey, our 30 plus yr old Mk3s provide a better ride than 395s. Progress? Definitely.
In fact, the 395s rival the Mk3s for vestibule noise levels.

Anything from Hitachi will be a mistake. Whether its bi modes or not.
A 180 style body on top of a 390 style traction package is the best option out of those mentioned. OK it still wont rival something like the 225, but it'll be 1000000000 times better than anything Ive seen from Hitachi.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone be so critical of a class 395. From what I've read most seem to think they are decent units, just not configured for Intercity work. Therefore I'd expect Hitachi to be capable of producing decent Intercity EMUs, provided they configure the trains to be suitable for that sort of work. A 180/175-style body (provided the ends/cabs shapped like Voyagers/Meridians) on top of a Pendolinio traction package sounds good, though really we need more Intercity 225 - style stock as well. However, whoever build the Intercity stock (and unless Derby get the work or Alstom offer to build an assembly plant in the north-east I think it will be Hitachi), sticking any diesel engines in them will be a mistake.
 

jopsuk

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I found it very rough in the tunnels heading towards St Pancras, I know this is a known problem, so I guess the set I was on wasn't fixed yet. But I have no problems with them out the tunnels.

They certainly seem a bit rougher and very loud in the tunnels, compared to out on the open lines, but then the lines that people are suggesting they be used on don't have any tunnels anywhere near as long as the HS1 tunnels.
 

LE Greys

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I don't think I've ever heard anyone be so critical of a class 395. From what I've read most seem to think they are decent units, just not configured for Intercity work. Therefore I'd expect Hitachi to be capable of producing decent Intercity EMUs, provided they configure the trains to be suitable for that sort of work. A 180/175-style body (provided the ends/cabs shapped like Voyagers/Meridians) on top of a Pendolinio traction package sounds good, though really we need more Intercity 225 - style stock as well. However, whoever build the Intercity stock (and unless Derby get the work or Alstom offer to build an assembly plant in the north-east I think it will be Hitachi), sticking any diesel engines in them will be a mistake.

Agreed wholeheartedly! They certainly do go like rockets, the problem is the internal configuration.
 

anthony263

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Agreed wholeheartedly! They certainly do go like rockets, the problem is the internal configuration.


I agree the class 395 do go like rockets in fact aren't they the fastest accelerating emu's in use in the UK?

I would happily like to travel on the class 395's if they had a better interior perhaps like crosscountry's hst's
 

Rhydgaled

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the problem is the internal configuration.
And the doors. They are in the wrong place (put the doors in vestibles at the ends of coaches for long-distance trains please), and look a bit silly (need neater plug doors, not 150/156-style doors).
 

Martin222002

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The IEP train Hitachi wants to build basically is a 395, just with all the DfT specified bells and whistles, ie all the diesel engines, even the one they want in the electrics for power in an emergency.

As for Alstom, they don't need to set up an assembly plant in the UK as the traction and electrical equipment (eg transformer and traction motors) used on the 390s (as wells as all the 22Xs) are manufactured in Preston.
 
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Rhydgaled

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The IEP train Hitachi wants to build basically is a 395, just with all the DfT specified bells and whistles, ie all the diesel engines, even the one they want in the electrics for power in an emergency.

As for Alstom, they don't need to set up an assembly plant in the UK as the traction and electrical equipment (eg transformer and traction motors) used on the 390s (as wells as all the 22Xs) are manufactured in Preston.

Didn't know that, but anyway it isn't really face saving for the polititions. Potential headline: "Job boost for north-east CANCALED as French company take train order instead of Japanese firm who were set to build new factory". DaFT's 'bells and whistles' are probablly what makes IEP so rediculus, so it matters not who builds the things. DaFT need to ask for the right trains rather than the enviromentally perverse option they seem to want at the moment.
 

WatcherZero

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Alstom wont be using Preston for the 22x electrification project however, theyve decided to use traction equipment from the continent. This might set a dangerous precedent of them not using it for future classes too.
 

junglejames

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I don't think I've ever heard anyone be so critical of a class 395. From what I've read most seem to think they are decent units, just not configured for Intercity work.


Ive seen little good about them so far. Yes ride quality is getting better, but I still find it poor.
Surprised nobody has mentioned the windows either. They arent as long as on other stock, and this is something quite common on Hitachi stock by the seems of it. Shorter windows= more window pillars= possibly more seats with no window view, and a duller interior.

A 180/175-style body (provided the ends/cabs shapped like Voyagers/Meridians) on top of a Pendolinio traction package sounds good

Oooooh, 22x cabs are the tackiest ive seen. Give me a 180 style cab anyday. Crikey, give me a class 70 style cab anyday.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Alstom wont be using Preston for the 22x electrification project however, theyve decided to use traction equipment from the continent. This might set a dangerous precedent of them not using it for future classes too.

Don't you mean Bombardier will not be using Alstom traction equipment on the 22x upgrade?
And I wonder how 4 cars with Alstom traction kit and 1 with Bombardier will work.
Sounds like a dog's breakfast...
 

Mike C

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Agreed wholeheartedly! They certainly do go like rockets.

I guess that depends on your point of view. They accelerate very well from low speeds, but they are still frustratingly slow for our liking. They seem to struggle to cruise at 210 to 225 up the gradients on CTRL - this is based on discussions with drivers and having been stuck behind them myself with Avertissement/Annonce 220 flashing on the TVM when we have previously had 300 voie libre. The only reason because of a late running SE service or because there are some services that are ran too close ahead of us to get enough distance in hand without tripping us up.
 
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RobShipway

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I know this has been said in this thread befoe, but when I went on a class 395 from Stratford International into Pancras I found the ride quite bumpy and it reminded very much of the class 458's to be honest on the local Reading - Waterloo line, just with faster accelaration. For me the IEP trains should be styled more like the Japanese bullet trains with doors at the ends otherwise you might as well be using Siemens class 444 or a Bombardier Electrostar with doors at each end of the carriage that has a diesel engine at one end and electric pantograph converter at the other end.
 
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