Intercity 225

[hypercolius]

My thoughts after taking one of the rare LNER services operated by an Intercity 225 set.

Previously I thought that people were overblowing how bad the Azuma is, especially their first class offering. The seats were uncomfortable, true, and definitely not suited to long distance runs. The seats also had pieces missing. However, they were not too dissimilar to the Pendolino seats I am much more used to. Or so I thought, until I took the IC225 in First Class.

This train is indeed unfathomably better. The seats are much, much, much more comfortable in both classes than on the Azuma (especially first class). They look much nicer, they feel much nicer, the entire carriage has a much more premium and relaxed feel to it compared to the Azuma. The ride quality is immeasurably better, and there were no violent lurches as the train accelerated- I definitely prefer the slow acceleration of the IC225 to the Azuma's acceleration.

I was expecting the train to be inferior to an Azuma, I was just not expecting the difference to be so staggering. In my opinion, replacing these lovely sets with something clearly not suitable for a London-Edinburgh run is an unacceptable, shameful, pathetic downgrade. Something tells me that the incoming CAF sets won't be much better (although as a self-proclaimed Spanish patriot I do hope they can do better than this junk)

I'm about 5 years too late for an HST experience on the ECML- was it better or worse than the IC225? I couldn't help but notice that every time the IC225 accelerated there was a slight thud from behind, which I was ascribing to the Class 91 at the rear.

The Azuma is not a good replacement for the IC225.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I went on one yesterday and was (in 1st) taken aback by how horribly tatty and run down it was, and the ride was as expected atrocious - the only genuinely well riding vehicles BR ever built were the Class 15x DMUs, particularly the 158.

As built don't forget the seats in Standard were pretty awful. The Virgin refurb really sorted them out though (the GNER one before that had oddly shaped seat cushions that hurt my back).

 

[jfollows]

The ride was dreadful when introduced, there is something about this in the latest Modern Railways, from memory that there was skill enough to work out and fix the problems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ride was dreadful when introduced, there is something about this in the latest Modern Railways, from memory that there was skill enough to work out and fix the problems.

It's still dreadful. So to be fair is the 80x, to me they are about the same.

The MR article is quite interesting, yes.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I love the 80s look inside of the MK4 sets. I know they're older but they really feel like you're on a "proper" train.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm about 5 years too late for an HST experience on the ECML- was it better or worse than the IC225?

Completely depends on who you ask.

The IC225 is one of my favourite trains and I always thought it felt more modern, airy and quiet than the often over-praised HST, whose constant carriage creaks, door slams and dark, dingy original-style buffet were noticeable to me. I don’t mind the electric “Mmmmm” hum sound you hear in the MK4s at all, and I like the fact the 2+1 configuration switches halfway down the carriage in the MK4s too. They didn’t in the HSTs. They also had half a carriage less of first class accommodation meaning it was usually more likely you’d have to share your table for two!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Completely depends on who you ask.

The IC225 is one of my favourite trains and I always thought it felt more modern, airy and quiet than the often over-praised HST, whose constant carriage creaks, door slams and dark, dingy original-style buffet were noticeable to me. I don’t mind the electric “Mmmmm” hum sound you hear in the MK4s at all, and I like the fact the 2+1 configuration switches halfway down the carriage in the MK4s too. They didn’t in the HSTs. They also had half a carriage less of first class accommodation meaning it was usually more likely you’d have to share your table for two!

I remember the first time I ever got up close to a class 91 to see the Tornado loco visit Kings Cross in 2009. I assumed it would be quiet like a class 90/87/86. I was wrong. When the cooling fans suddenly powered up it frightened the life out of me.

 

[moffatcalum]

Personally, I miss the HST's on the ECML. Especially north of the wires! I am sure the Azuma on diesel is noticably slower on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen section Mechanical & civil engineering seemed to hit peaks in the 80's/90's (at least here in the UK)
Was also sad to learn the 225 sets are no longer cleared for running North of Newcastle.

 

[class26]

Interestingly LNER only 2 days ago sent out a survey asking questions about the seats in Auzumas so presumably it is on their mind to do something about them ?

 

[yorkie]

... ride was as expected atrocious ...

No surprise that you would again say this, however 80x ride quality is worse than a 225 in my opinion.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No surprise that you would again say this, however 80x ride quality is worse than a 225 in my opinion.

Yes, have to agree. I never understood the constantly maligned ride quality comments when it came to the IC225s.

 

[hypercolius]

Yes, have to agree. I never understood the constantly maligned ride quality comments when it came to the IC225s.

Maybe it all depends on the exact train carriage? I had DVT 82208 and a 91105 locomotive at the back. I was a little surprised to read the description of an IC225 as 'rattly'. Sure, it rattles a bit more than a Pendolino, but, compared to that Azuma I took, it felt much smoother.

I remember my GWR IET rides were also relatively smooth, whereas people on this forum were saying how some of them rattled

 

[Cach17]

Having relatives in and around Leeds, I've had the pleasure of travelling on these fine trains from as early as 2006 in GNER days to the present where it's now mostly less-than-stellar Azumas. I managed to catch one of them last October!

I'll be sad to see them go, but I'm glad LNER gave them that beautiful sorta-IC Swallow livery for their twilight years (expect for 91111 in the attached photo obviously).

 

[JonathanH]

One thing I certainly don't miss about IC225s are the wheezing way they approach Doncaster and Peterborough when the 91 is at the back. That really can be quite tedious if they don't have a clear path into the platforms on the east side of the two stations.

 

[Iskra]

I'm about 5 years too late for an HST experience on the ECML- was it better or worse than the IC225? I couldn't help but notice that every time the IC225 accelerated there was a slight thud from behind, which I was ascribing to the Class 91 at the rear.

The Azuma is not a good replacement for the IC225.

Pretty similar to be honest, the HST’s could do the same (or a similar) jerking motion on departure.

The main advantage of the Mk4 from the perspective of a regular passenger is better temperature control in winter, the droplights on the Mk3’s was problematic in winter on the Highland Mainline for example, where passengers would leave them open after every station, which would make the saloon chilly.

LNER Azuma first class is hardly worth bothering with.

 

[43096]

No surprise that you would again say this, however 80x ride quality is worse than a 225 in my opinion.

Completely agree!

When the 80x were new on the East Coast I had three runs, about a week apart, over the same stretch (Leeds - Peterborough) with an HST (NL65), Mark 4 set and 80x. The 80x was by far the worst riding - for a new train it was frankly an utter disgrace. The HST was by far the best riding, with the Mark 4 somewhere in between.

I have not yet been on an 80x that has had an OK level of ride quality.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2024 ==

I like the fact the 2+1 configuration switches halfway down the carriage in the MK4s too. They didn’t in the HSTs.

It's one of the best features of the Mark 4s. I don't think it is actually possible to do it on the HSTs (at least not easily) due to the way the seat mountings work.

They also had half a carriage less of first class accommodation meaning it was usually more likely you’d have to share your table for two!

That only applies post the Mallard refurbishment when GNER standardised on 3 FC and 5.5 standards on the Mark 4s. Prior to that they were a mix of 2.5 FC/6 standard and 3.5 FC/5 standard (and originally there were some Pullman sets with 2 catering vehicles). I assume the HSTs were left as they were due to their use on the long distance North of Edinburgh services which needed more standard class?

 

[DanNCL]

Some of the ride quality issues on the ECML seem to be the track, but I agree with the sentiment about 8x ride quality. The roughest ride I’ve had between Newcastle and Morpeth was on an 80x, quite some achievement considering I used to regularly make that journey on a 142!

Remember when Mark 4 sets were dragged across the Tyne Valley on autumn diversions. The ride quality was excellent, better than anything else I’ve had on that route even a HST.

My thoughts after taking one of the rare LNER services operated by an Intercity 225 set.

Previously I thought that people were overblowing how bad the Azuma is, especially their first class offering. The seats were uncomfortable, true, and definitely not suited to long distance runs. The seats also had pieces missing. However, they were not too dissimilar to the Pendolino seats I am much more used to. Or so I thought, until I took the IC225 in First Class.

This train is indeed unfathomably better. The seats are much, much, much more comfortable in both classes than on the Azuma (especially first class). They look much nicer, they feel much nicer, the entire carriage has a much more premium and relaxed feel to it compared to the Azuma. The ride quality is immeasurably better, and there were no violent lurches as the train accelerated- I definitely prefer the slow acceleration of the IC225 to the Azuma's acceleration.

I was expecting the train to be inferior to an Azuma, I was just not expecting the difference to be so staggering. In my opinion, replacing these lovely sets with something clearly not suitable for a London-Edinburgh run is an unacceptable, shameful, pathetic downgrade. Something tells me that the incoming CAF sets won't be much better (although as a self-proclaimed Spanish patriot I do hope they can do better than this junk)

I'm about 5 years too late for an HST experience on the ECML- was it better or worse than the IC225? I couldn't help but notice that every time the IC225 accelerated there was a slight thud from behind, which I was ascribing to the Class 91 at the rear.

The Azuma is not a good replacement for the IC225.

The 80xs are a good design on paper that had the potential to be excellent yet has so many flaws and whilst some of them (seats) are fixable, others (build quality) aren’t. Honestly can’t see them lasting the 30+ years of the 91s.

The CAF units will almost certainly be an improvement over the 80x, at least if the 397s are anything to go by, but I’m not expecting them to match the Mark 4s.

You should only get the jolt when the 91 is on the rear. In my experience how bad the jolt is varies, probably based on how much starting power is applied by the driver and probably also varies by loco, each one has its own ‘quirks’.

I remember the first time I ever got up close to a class 91 to see the Tornado loco visit Kings Cross in 2009. I assumed it would be quiet like a class 90/87/86. I was wrong. When the cooling fans suddenly powered up it frightened the life out of me.

91s are louder than 90s but I wouldn’t have said they’re louder than an 86 or 87, those are very noisy things.

Was also sad to learn the 225 sets are no longer cleared for running North of Newcastle.

They’re still cleared North of Newcastle. What prevents them running there now is the lack of staff who sign both the route and traction, competencies have lapsed. There are still crews who sign both the traction and the route between York and Newcastle, but competencies on these sets for the dispatchers at Darlington, Durham and Newcastle have lapsed so running to Newcastle is ECS only for turning via the High Level Bridge if required, last done in 2021.

 

[FOH]

If you want to see the original IC225 operation and interiors inc. the infamous "wrong type of snow" event this is always a good watch Link

Link to YouTube Leeds Pullman

 

[peteb]

Is there a link to the remaining IC 225 MK4 diagrams? I'd like to sample these again before they go for good.

 

[antharro]

@peteb 225Group should have what you're looking for. https://225group.org.uk/

 

[bramling]

I went on one yesterday and was (in 1st) taken aback by how horribly tatty and run down it was, and the ride was as expected atrocious - the only genuinely well riding vehicles BR ever built were the Class 15x DMUs, particularly the 158.

I don’t really recognise the latter. Sure Sprinter ride is good, but the Mk3 EMUs were/are fine except in the motor cars, nothing wrong with Networker ride at all (class 365 ride was lovely, and they did cover some jointed track when very new), and to be honest I’ve never found Mk4 to be too bad either though they do lurch occasionally.

A lot can be put down to both track and formation condition which in places isn’t great. But many recent trains seem to accentuate this - the IETs certainly do, and even the generally well-liked Electrostars are surprisingly poor. We have made this even worse by the trend towards harder seats.

I’d say on balance if one wants a comfortable ride you’re more likely to get it on an ex-BR train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know about Mk3 EMUs - I always found a run from Euston at 100 on the fasts best described as exhilarating.

Don't know about 365s, don't think I've ever been on one.

But I would say the only time I've ever seriously considered pulling the handle due to a suspected derailed wheelset was on a Mk4 on the ECML.

 

[Trainz6013]

Personally, I miss the HST's on the ECML. Especially north of the wires! I am sure the Azuma on diesel is noticably slower on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen section Mechanical & civil engineering seemed to hit peaks in the 80's/90's (at least here in the UK)
Was also sad to learn the 225 sets are no longer cleared for running North of Newcastle.

Might be the complete wrong place to ask, but do the 91s still run to Newcastle? Or do they just go to York and Leeds now? Would quite like to cop the survivors if I can

 

[JonathanH]

Might be the complete wrong place to ask, but do the 91s still run to Newcastle? Or do they just go to York and Leeds now? Would quite like to cop the survivors if I can

The 91s don't go north of York, and mainly run to Leeds.

 

[Trainz6013]

The 91s don't go north of York, and mainly run to Leeds.

Ah alright, thank you very much! Looks like I'll have to travel around a bit then lol

 

[hexagon789]

Ah alright, thank you very much! Looks like I'll have to travel around a bit then lol

Currently Mon-Fri - two trips to York and back and ten to/from Leeds. (One Leeds to London originates at Skipton.)

Some slight variations on Saturday and more on Sunday.

 

[Trainz6013]

Currently Mon-Fri - two trips to York and back and ten to/from Leeds. (One Leeds to London originates at Skipton.)

Some slight variations on Saturday and more on Sunday.

Thank you for that @hexagon789

 

[hypercolius]

I legitimately cannot believe that the IC225 was withdrawn from north of York, given they are so much more comfortable and suited for these journeys.

Azuma would have been much more suited to Cambridge runs and for Leeds/York stopping services with their extreme acceleration. Those seats are just woeful. I feel they are even worse than GWRs.

Seems whoever made that decision did not think this through properly (wiithout saying stronger words)

 

[MorningStar]

Edinburgh to York and return this week, second class down first return.

down to York was OK seats uncomfortable after Newcastle but I am late 70’s and not enough padding in nether regions so felt uncomfortable after two hours.

train felt cold, then again in my 70’s and not any fat so feel the cold, other Px were in shirt sleeves.

ride I thought was poor, swaying from side to side and you felt every bump in track, do they still do track surveys regularly on main routes to find defects?

no food cause you had to order it on your phone using the app, err, no thanks.

first class return, coach K, seats not much better after two hours, still thought ride was a bit rough, maybe down to track rather than coach.

staff good, food and drinks were very good.

do the engines drive from both ends all the time or does the front engine do all the work


don’t think I would travel either class down to London

 

[hexagon789]

no food cause you had to order it on your phone using the app, err, no thanks.

You can also order at the buffet counter in Coach C.

do they still do track surveys regularly on main routes to find defects?

They do.

do the engines drive from both ends all the time or does the front engine do all the work

Well, Edinburgh to York would have been an Azuma not the InterCity 225 subject of this thread. The Azumas are distributed traction multiple units - there is no 'engine' in the traditional sense, the motive power is spread down the full trainset. Some are electric only, some can also operate off the overhead wires using underfloor diesel generator units.

In either case, propulsion is from electric motors - four per motor car. A nine-car set has five motor cars. The full arrangement is Trailer-Motor-Motor-Trailer-Motor-Trailer-Motor-Motor-Trailer.

For completeness: the IC 225s run London to Leeds and York only, they have one Class 91 electric locomotive at the end of a set of ten Mark 4 carriages. Nine of these contain passenger accommodation, the tenth is a driving trailer with large guards van and driving cab. Towards Leeds/York the 91 leads and pulls the train; towards London the Driving Trailer leads and the 91 propels the train from the back.