InterCity 125s for parcels traffic

[Shaw S Hunter]

An interesting idea which has certain parallels to Shooter's D-Train. But there are clearly some obstacles to overcome. Paths on the ECML won't be easy to come by during the day and I can't see any London passenger terminal being able to handle such trains so where will they go? PRDC looks tempting but aren't the platforms there a different height to normal passenger platforms meaning standard Mk3s might not "fit"? And how will customers react when a problem shuts down the ECML for any reason? Remember it was unreliability, largely stemming from infrastructure issues, that killed off the Royal Mail contract with EWS.

If there is genuinely a market for this I can't help thinking that a specialist air service might be a better long-term bet. Doncaster-Sheffield Airport (the former RAF Finningley and quite close to the area of Doncaster in question) is very quiet and daytime flights might even be able to get into London City Airport, rather handy for a decent proportion of the likely target market. And the costs needn't be that high; there are plenty of small parcel carrying aircraft sat on the ground doing nothing all day.

 

[AndrewE]

My first thoughts:

1) I thought it was agreed that we have a capacity problem on the network as it is, especially the lines radiating from London... so how can we now fit in additional parcels trains when passenger and freight trains already take up what is available?

2) Isn't the ECML a particular problem, what with the 2-track viaduct and then only 2 or 3 tracks as far as Peterborough?

3) People are whingeing about old diesel traction being re-introduced around Barrow, so how are they going to react to diesel parcel trains starting to use new depots?

I am all for maximising the use of rail and would love to see the re-emergence of the railway carriage of parcels, but I suspect it would depend on the intelligent use of existing resources without small-minded small-company parochialism, something I am afraid is gone forever (and maybe is even against the law.)

Now if we had a national passenger network (and weren't obsessed with de-staffing every possible job or location) we could accept parcels at stations and send them in the passenger trains that run on the network anyway. Is that too radical a suggestion? Maybe just stupidly reactionary!

Resources are Not unlimited and the UK can't blunder into the future assuming that transport capacity comes free to the user and "The Market" will miraculously deliver a solution that makes all our lives better... Rant over. (but it's good to get it off your chest: "If you have been, thanks for listening" as a broadcasting personality used to say!)

A

 

[daikilo]

The 319 is a 100mph design, is it not?

Yes, as is/was the 325 service to Low Fell. I bet there is an occasional non-stop 100mph path available.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If this does go ahead, if the ECML faced disruption, would these services be the first to be cancelled? On a busy route like the ECML if there is service disruption will freight or passenger trains be first in line to get cancelled?

 

[mrmartin]

Very interesting idea and much better than most freight - actually takes advantage of rails strength (speed, ease of getting to city centres). Also should be much easier to path with passenger trains (as it is a passenger train!).

 

[BestWestern]

If this does go ahead, if the ECML faced disruption, would these services be the first to be cancelled? On a busy route like the ECML if there is service disruption will freight or passenger trains be first in line to get cancelled?

Depends who's paying the most!

 

[Liam]

What happens to the customer when there is disruption? Do they get a refund for a late delivery? Who pays this, the company or the railway? IIRC the compensation due to customers is the reason Royal Mail still transport special deliveries by road. It's slower, but more reliable and easier to fix in the event of a failure somewhere.

 

[Class 170101]

If this does go ahead, if the ECML faced disruption, would these services be the first to be cancelled? On a busy route like the ECML if there is service disruption will freight or passenger trains be first in line to get cancelled?

Probably could be diverted via WCML, MML or the GE/GN Joint Line. Don't GBRF usually have a wide ranging route card?

 

[AndrewE]

Probably could be diverted via WCML, MML or the GE/GN Joint Line. Don't GBRF usually have a wide ranging route card?

er, aren't the southern ends of these lines already at saturation too?

 

[Class 170101]

er, aren't the southern ends of these lines already at saturation too?

Yes but for emergency purposes virtually anything goes.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes but for emergency purposes virtually anything goes.

But what about the scheduled services on those lines (already at capacity)?
A

 

[HowardGWR]

If this does go ahead, if the ECML faced disruption, would these services be the first to be cancelled? On a busy route like the ECML if there is service disruption will freight or passenger trains be first in line to get cancelled?

In the old days, the mail always has priority, so, as BestWestern suggests, I presume RM paid the most. Interesting that lack of reliability stopped that contract. One would have thought heaven and earth would have been moved to prevent that. Is there a history of how that ended?

 

[AndrewE]

In the old days, the mail always has priority, so, as BestWestern suggests, I presume RM paid the most. Interesting that lack of reliability stopped that contract. One would have thought heaven and earth would have been moved to prevent that. Is there a history of how that ended?

I suspect that in those days there was no question of who paid what, Mail trains were sacrosanct and the rest of the class 1 services followed, and then the other classes took their chances in turn!

 

[DarloRich]

If this does go ahead, if the ECML faced disruption, would these services be the first to be cancelled? On a busy route like the ECML if there is service disruption will freight or passenger trains be first in line to get cancelled?

Would it not be like the olden days: the mail must always get through?

 

[MadCommuter]

Probably could be diverted via WCML, MML or the GE/GN Joint Line. Don't GBRF usually have a wide ranging route card?

Which makes diesel preferable over electric.

Trying to put a positive spin on this, the market for same day parcel delivery appears to be growing. Argos and Amazon are two retailers that spring to mind instantly. With the rise of the Internet, has come the desire to have things instantly. Why wait overnight for something to be delivered? It's the next stage in competing with the high street.

Having said that, there will definitely be challenges. Perhaps GBRF is just putting a feeler out there to gauge market interest.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would Amazon have enough stuff moving between their fulfilment centres to justify using either this (if it happens) or other suitable rail stock to transport stuff between their sites (assuming a suitable siding and connection to the nearest main line was installed)?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Now if we had a national passenger network (and weren't obsessed with de-staffing every possible job or location) we could accept parcels at stations and send them in the passenger trains that run on the network anyway. Is that too radical a suggestion? Maybe just stupidly reactionary!

I think it's a great idea. Something that rail fragmentation prevents to any major extent. With today's technology and a national network (and trains with a decent guards van), it could work.

We had it 30 to 40 years ago - British Rail Red Star......

There are many services that a modern, nationwide railway company could deliver. Need a massive shift in mindset though.

 

[DarloRich]

I think it's a great idea. Something that rail fragmentation prevents to any major extent. With today's technology and a national network (and trains with a decent guards van), it could work.

We had it 30 to 40 years ago - British Rail Red Star......

There are many services that a modern, nationwide railway company could deliver. Need a massive shift in mindset though.

but not a Red Star style system. i think a bulk customer train from point to point should be easy enough to do like any other freight commodity but an ad hoc parcel service from station to station wouldn't be possible.

 

[Dolive22]

Shaw, very few planes can fly in to City, and the pilots need to be specially trained and approved. I think there is a cargo version of the BAE 146 (I think the QT(, but i'm not sure how many are hanging around spare in the day.

Mail presumably had priority as a "Nominated parcel of postal train", and ranked with express passenger trains, and snowploughs and rescue locos going to clear the line (I assume that's how Calss 1,2,3 etc. works).

 

[furnessvale]

I think it's a great idea. Something that rail fragmentation prevents to any major extent. With today's technology and a national network (and trains with a decent guards van), it could work.

We had it 30 to 40 years ago - British Rail Red Star......

There are many services that a modern, nationwide railway company could deliver. Need a massive shift in mindset though.

In its first inception, Red Star worked well. Bring your own parcel to the station and collect at the other end. Use space on trains that was otherwise empty.

Then they started adding collection and delivery, cross town transfers. You are now starting to compete with the big boys and incurring costs.

Then they started hiring in aircraft and suddenly costs were spiralling instead of utilising empty space.

Red Star can work again but only strictly station to station, no C & D, no changing trains etc.

 

[daikilo]

Mail presumably had priority as a "Nominated parcel of postal train", and ranked with express passenger trains, and snowploughs and rescue locos going to clear the line (I assume that's how Calss 1,2,3 etc. works).

Mail trains were class 1 and were treated like expresses. That was not the case for pure parcels trains (class 3?). Nowadays, both (like say the mail 325s) would be expected to stay on their timings would not have any special priority.

 

[HowardGWR]

I find it difficult to believe (need evidence) that road is more reliable than rail on the suggested trajectory. It must have been price that moved RM away from rail. I would be interested to learn the environmental argument for allowing air (or indeed road) over rail.

When RM abandoned rail for trunk movements, I was astonished that government allowed this. Was RM already privatised?

 

[DarloRich]

In its first inception, Red Star worked well. Bring your own parcel to the station and collect at the other end. Use space on trains that was otherwise empty.

Then they started adding collection and delivery, cross town transfers. You are now starting to compete with the big boys and incurring costs.

Then they started hiring in aircraft and suddenly costs were spiralling instead of utilising empty space.

Red Star can work again but only strictly station to station, no C & D, no changing trains etc.

i don't think it can - there inst the infrastructure or people to support it and customers now expect the parcel delivered to their door asap.

I find it difficult to believe (need evidence) that road is more reliable than rail on the suggested trajectory. It must have been price that moved RM away from rail. I would be interested to learn the environmental argument for allowing air (or indeed road) over rail.

When RM abandoned rail for trunk movements, I was astonished that government allowed this. Was RM already privatised?

Reliability of the infrastructure was a big issue in the contract moving to the roads/air. Railways could no longer guarantee to get the mail through by morning.

Overnight road closures have much less impact on mail services than overnight closures of key main lines. Think WC upgrade works

 

[furnessvale]

Reliability of the infrastructure was a big issue in the contract moving to the roads/air. Railways could no longer guarantee to get the mail through by morning.

Overnight road closures have much less impact on mail services than overnight closures of key main lines. Think WC upgrade works

You are forgetting the work of a consultant to RM who suggested complete abandonment of rail.

He had recently done the same to New Zealand Rail, but by the time the flaws in his work had surfaced he had long gone and the damage was done.

There was also the issue of large redundancies within RM at the time, which were lessened by taking traffic off rail and using road lorries driven by otherwise redundant posties.

Some traffic HAS returned to rail as road and air failed to live up to expectations. Hopefully more will follow.

 

[najaB]

Overnight road closures have much less impact on mail services than overnight closures of key main lines. Think WC upgrade works

It's quite easy to hire in the occasional few lorries for planned works on the railway.

 

[gsnedders]

It's quite easy to hire in the occasional few lorries for planned works on the railway.

And, if one lorry breaks down, it's comparatively easy to move everything to a new lorry compared with moving things between trains. One single lorry failing also impacts a fewer number of parcels than one train, which will have repercussions on compensation for guaranteed deliveries.

 

[daikilo]

I find it difficult to believe (need evidence) that road is more reliable than rail on the suggested trajectory. It must have been price that moved RM away from rail. I would be interested to learn the environmental argument for allowing air (or indeed road) over rail.

When RM abandoned rail for trunk movements, I was astonished that government allowed this. Was RM already privatised?

This is what the BBC said at the time (2004). It refers specifically to TPOs but says that other mail trains will also stop "shortly".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3379475.stm

I have seen elsewhere that at the time EWS, who provided at least the haulage and crew, was "shocked' to hear that the contract would be wound up. This led me to wonder whether they had not given the best price (or conditions) possible with say a modified network.

Royal Mail was effectively privatised in 2013.

 

[BestWestern]

This is what the BBC said at the time (2004). It refers specifically to TPOs but says that other mail trains will also stop "shortly".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3379475.stm

I have seen elsewhere that at the time EWS, who provided at least the haulage and crew, was "shocked' to hear that the contract would be wound up. This led me to wonder whether they had not given the best price (or conditions) possible with say a modified network.

EWS were, so it is often suggested, never particularly good at the 'business' side of things. Not dynamic, not competitive, rather reliant on things just being as they were. So it wouldn't at all surprise me if their overall attitude toward the RM contract had been lackadaisical and generally poor?

 

[najaB]

And, if one lorry breaks down, it's comparatively easy to move everything to a new lorry compared with moving things between trains.

Frequency v impact - everything you've said is true, but a lorry is more likely to break down or get stuck in traffic than a train. So it probably balances out overall.

 

[Dolive22]

Mail trains were class 1 and were treated like expresses. That was not the case for pure parcels trains (class 3?). Nowadays, both (like say the mail 325s) would be expected to stay on their timings would not have any special priority.

Yes, they are Class 3. Presumably a parcel train dedicated to making committed same day deliveries is what nominating parcel trains are for? Isn't much of the issue with priority when they are pushed off their timing by something else?