Inter City 225 -v- Pendolino: your views as a passenger?

[yorksrob]

Not sure, but it is true - but it has an advantage that they are easier to access.

The ICN is very similar (in terms of build, not seats) to a UK Pendolino inside, I find, even though it has little actually in common. The SBB New Pendolino is an absolute abomination - narrow seats and poor seatback design throwing away the benefits of good seat spacing.
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Despite being quite small it is very square, which means it fits surprisingly large bags. It's also low down so easy to lift them up.
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Yet some of us think the lighting is horribly garish and the InterCity 70 seats were terrible. Of course, there are some good refurbs, but you could put a good interior in any other coach. It's just a long metal tube with windows.

The 442 is everything the Mk3 should have been, of course. Better seats, better lighting, power doors and no slamming-back-and-forth vestibule doors.

Yes, the 442 was wonderful - particularly as it had compartment carriages, but for a long IC type journey in terms of lighting and seating the best is still is 1st on an EMT HST. I've travelled both classes on a lot of Mk3's, but to me, the original seating is the best.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I remember very well thundering up and down the WCML behind (or being pushed by) an 87 and they might not have been as quick but they were more comfortable and had a better ambience and I miss them days very much.

Fast doesn't mean good in my book. But that is just my opinion of course, I'm just not taken in by shiny tilting trains

However even if you don't see improved journey times as being important you would surely appreciate that the Pendolino's are a safer design, or that they are more reliable? It's worth mentioning here that I was using the WCML to visit my in-laws in BR days so the excuse often peddled that the trains were being run down by Virgin is not valid here. Not only that but you no longer have to mess about trying to open the doors. Whats not to like about that?

 

[Minilad]

However even if you don't see improved journey times as being important you would surely appreciate that the Pendolino's are a safer design, or that they are more reliable? It's worth mentioning here that I was using the WCML to visit my in-laws in BR days so the excuse often peddled that the trains were being run down by Virgin is not valid here. Not only that but you no longer have to mess about trying to open the doors. Whats not to like about that?

Safer almost certainly. But I have never been in a train crash and they happen so irregularly I don't think many people would factor that into a decision if a train is good or not. It's certainly not on my list of important factors.
I have travelled a touch over 300,000 miles with 87s and I could count on the fingers of one hand how many broke down on me. That means nothing in the grand scheme of things I know but it says to me they weren't that unreliable.
But as I said it's all about personal preference and clearly we differ on that!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

For me, the 225 wins over the 390 in every aspect except one - the more relaxed level of lighting in the 390. I would, however, enjoy the 225s even more if they still had the original seats fitted; the "Mallard" seating feels like it is trying to bend me forwards - it is just not possible to sit back comfortably in them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Potentially poor flexibility over third rail is hardly a big deal for a coach which doesn't operate over there 99% of the time.

That's why HST's never ran on the Manchester-Birmingham-Brighton run.

 

[Starmill]

I dislike both Standard interiors very much. If I had to choose I would pick the Mark 4 for the much greater chance of a socket and larger windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Despite most people spending the entire journey gawping at electronic devices I am one of the few who enjoy the view of real estate out of the window. The 225 it is then. Now if Pendolinos are ordered from now on will they be any better (bigger windows) or is the 390 the only version for UK gauge?

Euro Pendolinos have small windows as well.

 

[matacaster]

That concludes it.

Mk3 beats them both

Agree wholeheartedly, but I preferred the original mk3 seats. Mk3 suspension is much better too.

Off-topic
Most seating is poor these days. Either bone hard and thin like class 333 (otherwise excellent trains in fairness) or so thick you can't get your knees forward (northern class 142 refurbs I think - they should be scrapped anyway)

 

[yorksrob]

Agree wholeheartedly, but I preferred the original mk3 seats. Mk3 suspension is much better too.

Off-topic
Most seating is poor these days. Either bone hard and thin like class 333 (otherwise excellent trains in fairness) or so thick you can't get your knees forward (northern class 142 refurbs I think - they should be scrapped anyway)

Yes, too many are too hard to sit on. In terms of this thread, I prefer the 225 to the pendo, however on a trip from Leeds to KX I still find my backside going to sleep by Peterborough on the Mallard refurbs.

 

[Starmill]

Mk3 suspension is much better too.

You call that good suspension!? We must be riding different trains.

 

[TheNewNo2]

I'm going to be contrary and say the Pendolino.

It's not that I like the Pendolino - it is dark and feels like a coffin. But the Mallard seating on the 225 sets is just abysmal, always makes my backside and legs go numb.

 

[cambsy]

I have travelled on everything from the MK 1 coach to modern units diesel and electric, I think the MK 3 coach and HST are the best trains ever built in the UK and saved BR When the APT failed to go into production.

I personally like a good fast tilting blast along the WCML from London to Glasgow, often with only hour or so in Glasgow and find the journey perfectly comfortable and relaxing, and this after 9 hours on them. They are more cramped and smaller profile, this because in order to tilt 9 degrees they have to canter inwards to fit unloading gauge when tilting 9 degrees, thus they can do the max EPS speed round curves where as the Super Voyagers with their slightly larger profile can only tilt to 6 degrees, one can't have cake and eat it, if one wants a faster WCML journey then u need tilt or if one harks back to the old days of MK3 electric hauled then u ended up with quite a slower journey on a MK 3 with more spaciousness, that the price of faster journeys, I know the MK4 from introduction but not been on much recently, and it seemed fine and perfectly good to ride on, just prefer the WCML,

 

[delt1c]

Agree totally. I hate the way the seats don't line up with the windows. I can also feel quite queasy if I'm looking down reading on the really curvy sections. I've seen some people be quite travel sick on them.

I have felt sick on Mk1's, easily cured though, less intoxicating liquor ,

 

[Aldaniti]

The Pendolino is, technologically, a very good train - but completely let down by one of the poorest standard class IC interiors I have ever come across which, when full to capacity, is particularly unpleasant to travel in. Both Pendolino and Mk4 have uncomfortable standard class seating in my opinion - as do most trains these days - and I don't particularly relish the thought of travelling in either. First Class is OK, but hardly the height of luxury. Give me a Mk3 any day of the week, which is partly why, when travelling from the North West to London - which is not often - I now drive to Warwick Parkway and use the far more pleasant Chiltern service.

 

[Mikey C]

Euro Pendolinos have small windows as well.

Larger than the 390s though; the tight spacing and airline seats of the 390s exacerbate the issue

 

[Ash Bridge]

Larger than the 390s though; the tight spacing and airline seats of the 390s exacerbate the issue

Those overhead luggage storage racks on the Italian version look very similar to those in the UK Pendo's, are these the same on other European countries versions?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, the 390 is reduced in height from the Euro Pendolino, and the windows are reduced proportionally.

 

[40129]

Personally, I've always preferred the Mk 4s to the Pendolinos as they are far less claustrophobic. I also prefer Voyagers to Pendolinos for the same reason.

Out of interest, does anyone know how the internal dimensions of these three types of train compare given that all were designed with tilting in mind? Also, how far could a Mk 4 tilt if the appropriate equipment were fitted?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Larger than the 390s though; the tight spacing and airline seats of the 390s exacerbate the issue

Not too bad, the seats line up nicely so everyone gets a view

 

[RoundNewcastle]

Rarely travel on Pendolinos due to me being on the East Coast, but when I do travel on them I find them a really nice, Pleasant and Speedy train to travel on.
Maybe the seats could be comfier and less " Airline Like " and the Isolated seats with no window are Avoided by me at all costs so cant comment on them

My local 225s are again " Pleasant " but could be a lot better ride quality wise,
The SIG Bogies ride rough and the Mark 4 Coaches are louder internally than Mark 3s, Also Mark 4s feel less stable over 110Mph than Mark 3s do.
The interior is getting dull after nearly 12 years of wear and tear, And I actually prefer Voyager seats to 225s and because Pendolinos have very similar if not same type of seats as Voyagers so the Pendolinos win on seat comfort even though there not the best

Cut the story short, The Pendolino wins

 

[deltic08]

Yes, the 442 was wonderful - particularly as it had compartment carriages, but for a long IC type journey in terms of lighting and seating the best is still is 1st on an EMT HST. I've travelled both classes on a lot of Mk3's, but to me, the original seating is the best.

I have travelled on all types and I have to agree that at 100mph the 1st class compartments in 442s were the best travel environment. I would liked to have tried them at 125mph but again the 1st class Mark 3 is better than Mark 4 on the East Coast route and less claustrophobic than Pendos on West Coast.

I hope that each trip I make with Grand Central from Thirsk is a Mark 3 and not 180.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes, too many are too hard to sit on. In terms of this thread, I prefer the 225 to the pendo, however on a trip from Leeds to KX I still find my backside going to sleep by Peterborough on the Mallard refurbs.

As I mentioned in my posting up thread, Iam not well versed regarding current trains on the east coast, but I knew that both the HST's and 225's received the Mallard refurbishment some years back, so my question is do the East Coast HST's have the same seats as the 225's these days as I've not noticed any criticism aimed at these regarding the standard seating?

 

[aylesbury]

Pendolino every time I usually travel first and it is excellent. Seats comfortable, view is good. I also travel standard and don't have a problem.

I can't understand peoples dislike of them. Four and a half hours MKC to Glasgow is great; much better than loco hauled days.

As for the Mk4s when I have travelled on them it has been claustrophobic, and dark with uncomfortable seats.

 

[cjmillsnun]

However even if you don't see improved journey times as being important you would surely appreciate that the Pendolino's are a safer design, or that they are more reliable? It's worth mentioning here that I was using the WCML to visit my in-laws in BR days so the excuse often peddled that the trains were being run down by Virgin is not valid here. Not only that but you no longer have to mess about trying to open the doors. Whats not to like about that?

Sorry, but the Mk2/Mk3 stock WAS run down by VT. I was also a regular on the WCML in BR days and the VT days up to and including the introduction of the Pendo.

The stock was due a refurb at the end of BR and got a refresh quickly under VT (I'll give you that), but it then deteriorated (along with the track - Railtrack were especially bad) rapidly. Being particularly bad (they did the bare minimum in the run up to the intro of the Pendos where the 87s started to be unreliable (the Skodas having been all but withdrawn by then)

 

[yorksrob]

I hope that each trip I make with Grand Central from Thirsk is a Mark 3 and not 180.

Personally I'd rather they swapped them onto the Bradford route so that I could get them from Wakefield
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As I mentioned in my posting up thread, Iam not well versed regarding current trains on the east coast, but I knew that both the HST's and 225's received the Mallard refurbishment some years back, so my question is do the East Coast HST's have the same seats as the 225's these days as I've not noticed any criticism aimed at these regarding the standard seating?

Much the same (although I think I read somewhere at the time that the HST ones are slightly narrower to fit in the Mk3 carriage. There's nothing overly wrong with them - just a bit hard.

 

[urpert]

I'm going to be different. Pendolino every time. The Mk4 seats hurt my back. Change the seats for something different such as the fGW HST ones and I will immediately change my mind.

I'm with you on this. The Mk4 standard seats appear to have absolutely no lumbar support.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm with you on this. The Mk4 standard seats appear to have absolutely no lumbar support.

It's a lack of underthigh support I find to be a problem, but each to their own. The problem is the single-piece cushion, that fortunately no other seat design has used.

The seats *look* like they should be very comfortable. They just aren't.

 

[Starmill]

It's a lack of underthigh support I find to be a problem, but each to their own. The problem is the single-piece cushion, that fortunately no other seat design has used.

The seats *look* like they should be very comfortable. They just aren't.

I very much doubt that this is actually the problem. About half of the seats do use two cushions, with a separate one for the back and the base.

I think it's just that, particularly with the base, they are too firm and somewhat worn.

The seats in a GW HST are quite comfortable but they are too high and this totally ruins the view out of the nice big windows. No matter if you choose airline or table the seats do not offer more than a short slit of window. They are unnecessarily high with a massive headrest. Table seats offer shockingly poor legroom if someone is sat opposite.

 

[fowler9]

People often comment that it is only rail enthusiasts that want to see out of the windows, I don't find that to be the case. I frequently get a cheap Virgin Return from Lime Street to Runcorn or Crewe for something to do of a weekend. The seats with no window view are always the last to go and there are plenty. Loads of luggage space with a window view to. They are also in my opinion much noisier than Mk 3's, just a personal opinion. Personally don't care if they are a few minutes quicker to London. How long would Liverpool to London have taken back in the day of 87's if pretty much every service didn't stop after Stafford, sounds more like good planning.

 

[childwallblues]

Rarely travel on Pendolinos due to me being on the East Coast, but when I do travel on them I find them a really nice, Pleasant and Speedy train to travel on.
Maybe the seats could be comfier and less " Airline Like " and the Isolated seats with no window are Avoided by me at all costs so cant comment on them

My local 225s are again " Pleasant " but could be a lot better ride quality wise,
The SIG Bogies ride rough and the Mark 4 Coaches are louder internally than Mark 3s, Also Mark 4s feel less stable over 110Mph than Mark 3s do.
The interior is getting dull after nearly 12 years of wear and tear, And I actually prefer Voyager seats to 225s and because Pendolinos have very similar if not same type of seats as Voyagers so the Pendolinos win on seat comfort even though there not the best

Cut the story short, The Pendolino wins

I doubt if you would think if you had no alternative.