Inspectors.

[Captain Chaos]

How many of these (and all such) apocalyptic visions of the future are:-

• documented fact in the public domain
• union scaremongering
• wild imaginings
• someone being told the truth by Arthur whose mate Gladys heard it from someone passing by in the local chippy.

?

Point taken. I just cannot believe a TOC would remove all on-board staff from Intercity workings. Any TOC who thinks it's a good is mad. MAD I tell you!

 

[Carlisle]

As I have already said, I have heard on good authority that the DfT will not be setting up any more DOO franchises as the safety case against it is currently too strong so I would be very surprised if any intercity franchises or others are converted.

This may have been the DFTs opinion for quite sometime allready ,i can think back to 1997 when SWT spent quite a bit installing DOO equipment for its suburban network ,only to rip it down again as soon as the unions threatened industrial action ,and they still got awarded the next franchise

 

[RailwayBear]

Several reasons.


3. Where there is Driver Only Operation, ScotRail are fined £500 per service which departs without a Ticket Examiner on board.

Incorrect!!

Myself being a Ticket Examiner can explain!! As part of the franchise agreement Transport Scotland(SQUIRE)were hired to make sure Scotland follow certain benchmarks whilst running the railway if they don't they get fined, the fines can be costly,

1. If a squire inspector is one of our trains and there is no Ticket examiner on board it gets marked as a failure and they can get fine £27,000 same as at the manual ticket barriers at Waverley/Edinburgh Park/Partick and Paisley Gilmour Street if a inspector manages to get through the barrier unchallenged Scotrail get fined £81000.

Other fines can be caused by:

Litter
Excess water on platforms
Faulty Lighting.
CCTV Help points not working

 

[jon0844]

I can certainly see how future Intercity/IEP trains would likely be designed to allow a driver to open/close the doors, and use CCTV to see along the train etc.

But I do think that they'd keep someone else on the train for customer service and to sell tickets etc.

Of course that could well be more akin to the role of staff on 395s, which is probably what future Intercity trains will end up looking like too interior wise.

 

[maniacmartin]

So SQUIRE are mystery shoppers? It sounds like a great job for RailUK members. Where do I sign up?

 

[RailwayBear]

No squire are employed by transport Scotland used to be SPT. they are they to make sure that Scotrail comply with the franchise agreement, ive got a copy of the Squire Fines manual somewhere in my Locker..

 

[A-driver]

I can certainly see how future Intercity/IEP trains would likely be designed to allow a driver to open/close the doors, and use CCTV to see along the train etc.

But I do think that they'd keep someone else on the train for customer service and to sell tickets etc.

Of course that could well be more akin to the role of staff on 395s, which is probably what future Intercity trains will end up looking like too interior wise.

Off the top of my head I would say that by far the vast majority or stations served by intercity trains throughout the country have platform staff who assist the guard with dispatch anyway. Therefore the use if CCTV wouldn't be likely, more just CD/RA.

 

[jon0844]

But wouldn't even platform dispatchers also be made redundant eventually once the driver could safely check by him or herself?

Of course, when a camera breaks...

 

[A-driver]

But wouldn't even platform dispatchers also be made redundant eventually once the driver could safely check by him or herself?

Of course, when a camera breaks...

No-at busy stations no amount if CCTV is safe or reliable enough. Especially on intercity services where people stand at the side to wave goodbye to family etc.

No further services will be going DOO and that is too right, especially in intercity services.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'm still not sure about the no more lines are going to go DOO claim. GSM-R is going to have national coverage before much longer, the next round of franchise renewals is due in a couple of years and they will almost certainly have some kind of a reaction to the McNulty report within them. New rolling stock will be more compatible with DOO than old stock ever has been.
I'm not saying I want more DOO, I just think it is going to happen somewhere because a lot of the barriers which didn't necessarily make it cheaper than conventionally manned trains twenty years ago are being removed by technology.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not saying I want DOO everywhere either, but modern stock and modern lines/signalling will surely make DOO a lot easier to implement and use, and it will be hard to argue against it if we want to keep costs down.

A-driver makes a good point about the people that hang about to say goodbye to people on Intercity services, but I do sometimes wonder how easy it is for platform staff to deal with this. Only yesterday when getting off a 12-car 377 at Blackfriars, I looked back and thought 'how the hell do you know that everyone is clear of a train that long when people are still milling about?'.

 

[notadriver]

Well a 377 has cameras along the whole length of the train. An additional refinement could be if the screens could show the inside of all coaches simultaneously. At the moment the camera go off at once the speed reaches 4 mph. I suggest this be changed so they don't go off until the whole train has left the platform.

 

[jon0844]

Well a 377 has cameras along the whole length of the train.

But does the driver use them when at a station in the core that has dispatchers?

It would seem to me that the driver is best suited to check on the 377s and the platform staff continue to check on the 319s.

 

[A-driver]

But does the driver use them when at a station in the core that has dispatchers?

It would seem to me that the driver is best suited to check on the 377s and the platform staff continue to check on the 319s.

Platform staff will always have a better view of the train and the platform than the driver using any kind of method including 377 style CCTV.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Disappointed? Why? What an odd comment!

What advantage does DOO have? As said its not really any cheaper.

The lowered likelihood of a train being cancelled because of a lack of a Guard for it - not uncommon in every train had a Guard days. It must be cheaper as a TOC is not only not paying a Guard's wages but they aren't paying for them to be trained by a salaried instructor either. Supply of uniforms, N.I. contributions etc, it all adds up. Put a person trained on tickets and good with punters on a train by all means but not a traditional Guard over a T.C.B. line.

 

[notadriver]

The lowered likelihood of a train being cancelled because of a lack of a Guard for it - not uncommon in every train had a Guard days. It must be cheaper as a TOC is not only not paying a Guard's wages but they aren't paying for them to be trained by a salaried instructor either. Supply of uniforms, N.I. contributions etc, it all adds up. Put a person trained on tickets and good with punters on a train by all means but not a traditional Guard over a T.C.B. line.

Do you mean in the same way the 'Javelins' are operated with On Board Managers? These guys don't do the doors and yet they have to be on every train (so a train could be cancelled due to the lack of an available OBM) and their salary is about the same as a guard. So might as well put traditional conductor/guards on them?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The lowered likelihood of a train being cancelled because of a lack of a Guard for it - not uncommon in every train had a Guard days. It must be cheaper as a TOC is not only not paying a Guard's wages but they aren't paying for them to be trained by a salaried instructor either. Supply of uniforms, N.I. contributions etc, it all adds up. Put a person trained on tickets and good with punters on a train by all means but not a traditional Guard over a T.C.B. line.

A Guard is a hell of a lot better trained and knowledgable than a "Ticket Inspector" (who probably would be working on a minimum wage zero contract contract with terrible terms and conditions) but thats alright by so many people who feel technology is always the way forward. DOO will not be fully implemented or expanded for many years to come, PTE's don't want it, passengers don't want it most drivers don't want it, The savings are minimal compared with the extra risks involved. I'm so glad the race to the bottom is still alive and well.

 

[455driver]

A guard is trained in the rules and regs so can help out in an evacuation or other incident, a ticket examiner is no more use than an ordinary passenger.

If you are happy to have the driver in charge (with no back up whatsoever) in an emergency situation then get on with it, me personally I am happy to have my tail gunner take care of the passengers while I get on with fixing the train, because the drivers job is primarily to get the train moving so customer service is a long way down my list of priorities, that isnt just my opinion but fact before all the usual suspects come up with their "thats because you hate the passengers" garbage.

 

[A-driver]

The lowered likelihood of a train being cancelled because of a lack of a Guard for it - not uncommon in every train had a Guard days. It must be cheaper as a TOC is not only not paying a Guard's wages but they aren't paying for them to be trained by a salaried instructor either. Supply of uniforms, N.I. contributions etc, it all adds up. Put a person trained on tickets and good with punters on a train by all means but not a traditional Guard over a T.C.B. line.

You see once again people are ignoring what has already been posted! DOO is no cheaper! That wasn't why it was introduced. Delays related to dispatch are higher, equipment installation and maintenance is huge and other expensive ways have to be found for collecting revenue.

Plus most industry organisations are in no doubt that the dangers in many areas are far higher with DOO.

 

[Captain Chaos]

The biggest criticism of TOC's during disruption is not giving passengers information and telling them what's happening. Despite a recent hour and a bit delay my passengers were given as much information by myself as possible even if I didn't have anything new I still said something. I also walked up and down the train answering any questions etc. They were very happy with this. I got not single complaint from anyone. Would a driver on a DOO service be able to do all this? Of course not!

My line is DOO. Announcements are rare. Staff even rarer. The problem with TE's is that a fair few of them are only worried about selling tickets to boost their commission. They don't contact Signaller's and they have almost nothing to do with Control. Quite often they aren't even put out on trains but sent to queue bust instead. If what we all want is almost no staff presence on trains, those that are left on minimum wage, lack of information during disruption, nobody to help out on board or ring ahead for assistance when things go wrong, nobody to help out with people's luggage at unmanned stations, nobody to put disabled passengers onto trains at unmanned stations and other things then be my guest. But it's not the service anybody I know wants and nor do they expect it either.

Cutting staff is not going to cut fares either. Did Gatwick Express fares go down when they went DOO? No they didn't. Do they still go up at the same rate as every other fare? Yes they do! In every other service industry customer service is key. Removing a key element of that but expecting people to pay the same is ridiculous!

 

[transmanche]

The lowered likelihood of a train being cancelled because of a lack of a Guard for it - not uncommon in every train had a Guard days.

That was a regular problem on the Great Northern; as when DOO was first introduced, guards were still required on the Northern CIty line section (Finsbury Park-Moorgate). The lack of a guard meant trains were frequently diverted to King's Cross. The slightest service disruption lead to no guard being available at Finsbury Park; which inevitably led to more service disruption, as more trains were diverted to King's Cross.

 

[jon0844]

I'm all for staff on trains, as I do despair about future generations and what work they'll ever get to do if we let technology replace every possible job.

But I can see that if we do keep staff, or re-introduce them in places, the responsibilities will become a lot different and the job may well become a lot less skilled and lower paid.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I'm all for staff on trains, as I do despair about future generations and what work they'll ever get to do if we let technology replace every possible job.

Indeed. Technology is great and all but there has to be a limit on the number of people it can replace before it actually becomes economically damaging. We live in an ever increasing population with ever decreasing numbers of jobs. In order to have a sustainable, growing economy you need to have people in jobs earning money in order for taxes to be collected and money spent. Technology might save one company money but it damages others if the money they were getting from those sacked employees no longer exists.

The concept of replacing people with new technology all the time isn't sustainable.

 

[transmanche]

We live in an ever increasing population with ever decreasing numbers of jobs.

I'm not sure if the total number of jobs is decreasing, but I think it's the rise in part-time, 'zero-hours' and low-paid jobs that is the problem

ONS stats show that almost 29.76 million people are 'in work', including employed, self-employed, unpaid family workers and those on government training/employment programmes. But only 21.06 million are employed/self-employed full time. So almost 1/3 of the workforce are working in part-time (or unpaid jobs) and in general these tend to be low-paid jobs.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe the trains will be half empty because all the jobs have been replaced, so it won't matter!

First we had jobs replaced by robots, but we could retrain. However, when computers can make even relatively easy and unskilled jobs redundant, or we've outsourced abroad, there's not a lot left!

Even a job in a supermarket isn't going to be a given for the future. Every major supermarket would love to get rid of tills, and new payment systems and everything from self-scanning to, eventually, walking through a scanner that automatically adds up everything in your trolley will make that happen sooner rather than later.

We'll all accept it too, as it makes our own lives easier - without seeing the bigger picture.

That's one reason why we now find DOO wasn't so great after all, nor having open stations or no staff.. and TfL has proven that it can spend more money to make something more successful (and presumably profitable).

 

[Carlisle]

So if the DFT/government is still interested in saving any money with new technology then adopting the SPT manning system would surely be the best long term goal for most non inter city services nationwide,i believe they also have something similar method ireland when i last travelled there a few years ago.

 

[gunn13]

For me (being a TE) the priority is customer service: helping customers who may assistance boarding or alighting; answering questions and offering advice; explaining ticket options, and just generally being a friendly face. People obviously like a staff presence on the train so sometimes providing customer service can be as simple as just being visible.
Revenue is technically the main duties of being a TE, so I check tickets, sell tickets, issue TIRs, contact BTP, etc. But providing good customer service is definitely a priority over selling tickets for the commission.
We are not safety-critical staff but we are still trained on what to do in an emergency. We know how and when to assist the driver; how to contact control or the signaller; how to use the GSM-R; how to evacuate a train if we had to for whatever reason.
I think it's a little unfair to suggest TEs are only useful for revenue purposes.

 

[Captain Chaos]

For me (being a TE) the priority is customer service: helping customers who may assistance boarding or alighting; answering questions and offering advice; explaining ticket options, and just generally being a friendly face. People obviously like a staff presence on the train so sometimes providing customer service can be as simple as just being visible.
Revenue is technically the main duties of being a TE, so I check tickets, sell tickets, issue TIRs, contact BTP, etc. But providing good customer service is definitely a priority over selling tickets for the commission.
We are not safety-critical staff but we are still trained on what to do in an emergency. We know how and when to assist the driver; how to contact control or the signaller; how to use the GSM-R; how to evacuate a train if we had to for whatever reason.
I think it's a little unfair to suggest TEs are only useful for revenue purposes.

I was referencing TE's in my part of the world. We only have a few and they spend most of their days standing at stations queue busting and not actually on trains. They are never on late turns either. Whilst they are trained in evacuation they are not told how to use GSM-R nor are they told how to contact the signaller or control. They literally just do tickets and customer service. Cleraly Scotrail takes things more seriously. I haven't a problem with the way Scotrail run things. If DOO MUST be done then I would like to see it implemented in that fashion. The current method of DOO where I am is depressing to say the least.

I hope I didn't cause offence. I only have how things down South go on. It's at least reassuring that things are taken more seriously in Scotland.

 

[jon0844]

It isn't just the railway or supermarkets that seem to be keen to do away with staff (or some people are).

What about flying? Currently you usually need some human interaction even if you checked in at home. You might have your boarding card, but there's someone around to help if you do self check-in at the airport. You probably see someone when you drop your bag.

But you can of course now print your own luggage tags and self drop. BA is now trialling electronic tags you can re-use, and I am sure that with the new chip passports and cameras when going through security, it won't be impossible to see rules relaxed so you can board the plane without the checking at the gate.

Okay, so the people at the gate are the people that usually travel on the plane, but there are probably many aspects that will see less and less staff - or the staff doing less and less (and being paid less).

It sadly seems inevitable, although I always find such things go in circles.

We outsourced call centres, then people complained and some businesses realised there was a benefit to saying 'we have UK call centres'.

I do hope that while we try all these staff cutting measures, we eventually realise that it's better and beneficial to have more staff. The problem is that by cutting jobs and then re-hiring later on, you start people with new contracts and terms...

 

[gunn13]

No offence taken.

I'm relatively new to the railway so I have no idea what my routes were like before DOO or whether or not it is safer. But implemented as it is here in Scotland it really works well in my opinion.
If we are spare on a day of a big event with massively increased passenger flows then we will usually have to go sell tickets at booking offices or in the concourse but we are on-train staff.
Many of the part-time TEs actually spend much of their shift assisting conductors on the busier non-DOO trains.
I'm led to believe that after the electrification of Cumbernauld and Whifflet lines (and eventually East Kilbride), they will become DOO and we will be taking over those routes. It does make me wonder how many conductors will remain in the SPT area in the near future.
Whilst there will always be areas where DOO is not appropriate and the need for a conductor/guard will remain, I personally don't feel that having DOO (in the ScotRail fashion) in areas where it is appropriate would have that much of a negative impact.