Inspectors.

[notadriver]

starmill - Well London Overground is one of them, but any TOC that has Electrostars that has guards has the drivers opening and the guards closing them. There are no buttons for the guards to release the doors in the guards panel of an Electrostar. As for guards on LOROL I think they are being retained for now but on the NLL at least the trains are capable of DOO operation

 

[Captain Chaos]

They don't have Guards because in just about all of the South-East the reason for a "Guard" has been negated.
The strangest is the North Downs line where upon arrival at a station the Driver has the decision to release the doors but is signalled by the Guard when to close them. If the Guard was truly in charge of the train why isn't that person both releasing and closing them?

The reason is because the door control buttons in the cab are only active when a Drivers Key is in the desk. Therefore we give buzzer codes to tell the driver when to shut and when were good to go. We do the same on the Marlow Branch and the Basingstokes. Interestingly, on the Basingstoke line if a 150 turns up then we have full control of the doors. If it's a turbo then as above. Operational responsibility is still the same however. It might be possible to engineer it so as doors can be operated directly by the Guard. But these services work in DOO form too so there could be a problem there I suppose. Hence why it's left. Besides, the current method works so why tinker? They might change it all when Turbo's get cascaded I guess.

 

[Starmill]

They don't have Guards because in just about all of the South-East the reason for a "Guard" has been negated.
The strangest is the North Downs line where upon arrival at a station the Driver has the decision to release the doors but is signalled by the Guard when to close them. If the Guard was truly in charge of the train why isn't that person both releasing and closing them?

Isn't this the same as what they do on Pendolinos and Voyagers? Or not...?

I must say I never realised there was such a large variation in operating practice... It's not until you really open your eyes and ears and ask the right questions that you see how many bloody ways there are to dispatch a train!

 

[Mojo]

I would be shocked and disappointed if DOO(P) was not to be expanded. The facts are though that under the current franchising system it is not in a Toc's interest to introduce DOO and that would be the responsibility for the Department for Transport to sort out along with the other inefficiencies in the system.

 

[A-driver]

I would be shocked and disappointed if DOO(P) was not to be expanded. The facts are though that under the current franchising system it is not in a Toc's interest to introduce DOO and that would be the responsibility for the Department for Transport to sort out along with the other inefficiencies in the system.

Disappointed? Why? What an odd comment!

What advantage does DOO have? As said its not really any cheaper.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Disappointed? Why? What an odd comment!

What advantage does DOO have? As said its not really any cheaper.

Mojo seems to think that DOO and technology is the best thing since sliced bread, luckily the majority of Passengers, Drivers and PTE's disagree.

 

[Starmill]

I cannot say I have any facts on the benefits of DOO, be it speed, productive efficiency, franchise profits - whatever. But having only one member of staff on a train is unequivocally bad for customer service - because they are driving the train and you can't speak to them except in an emergency. Not that its that easy to ask some guards for help with things, like connections or other advice...

Again, I don't know what the implications for safety are and I don't have any facts on this either, but I would be inclined to believe that guards are 'worth it' in terms of the safety benefits minus what they get paid.

 

[the sniper]

Disappointed? Why? What an odd comment!

Because you Drivers should actually earn your wage by doing the doors too and us Guards are just pointless Lady Penelope's, of course.

 

[AlexS]

DOO(P) is nothing but a cost saving measure.

To some extent with appropriately designed trains with things like opening windows at the average small to medium station, guards conducting self dispatch is entirely reasonable, for example, if you were looking at operational rationalisation.

However, I've even had it from a fairly senior manager at a pro DOO(P) TOC, off the record of course, that DOO isn't safer, or as safe as having a guard - it's just cheaper.

So effectively the argument to make more trains DOO(P) isn't that it's a safety issue, it's just that the cost saving is worth more than the safety - which is an attitude that needs stamping out as heavily as possible.

A decent guard can get the doors closed and the train away perfectly quickly, particularly if they are proactive in things like judicious use of a whistle.

 

[A-driver]

DOO didn't save as much money as people may think. Installing the equipment is incredibly expensive. Maintaining it is also at a huge cost. There is constantly a list of 6 or so monitors or mirrors which are listed as faulty/misaligned and awaiting repair on the GN routes late notice cases. Once one is fixed and taken off another takes its place. Then there are the delay minutes. No Moorgate- Hertford or Welwyn train will run to time in the rush hour purely because the DOO system isn't up to it with the huge numbers of people getting on and off.

Plus there is the bad publicity no guard can lead to-take incidents like fccs Kentish town or even delays due to things like single line working a couple of weeks back on the GN route. Whilst the driver is doing all the things they need to do, weather that be speaking to the signaller, control, fitters or laying protection, fault finding etc at Kentish town or weather it be getting authority for SLW from the signaller and pilot man which is causing delays and leading to passengers becoming agitated which in Kentish town led to self evacuation a guard would be able to patrol the train or make regular announcements to calm things down.

DOO was a largely politically motivated idea to try and reduce the unions power under BR.

 

[455driver]

Because you Drivers should actually earn your wage by doing the doors too and us Guards are just pointless Lady Penelope's, of course.

You can sod off as well!

I might break a nail pushing the door buttons, also when am I going to read the Metro and do the sudokus?

 

[jon0844]

Sudoku? Surely that died when Angry Birds took off, and now I guess it's all about Candy Crush Saga going by the amount of messages on Facebook...

 

[Starmill]

You can sod off as well!

I might break a nail pushing the door buttons, also when am I going to read the Metro and do the sudokus?

You mean you don't spend the time waiting for your guard to get the doors shut with your head out of the window giving the actual passengers who are delaying your train all that you give us on here?

We are the all too exclusive and privileged recipients of your charms, wits and propensity to frank observation I see!

 

[313103]

What, like they do on Mersey Rail?
What string of incidents nationwide? I bet on a percentage basis it's no worse than in the days of slam door trains and every train carrying a Guards.

Such a shame that I am forbidden to tell you what is really going on (Companies rule book does not allow me to say anything negative).

Otherwise you would change your perception on the safety aspects of DOO or Driver opens and Guard closes methods of operation.

Lets just say we have more Operational Hotspots now in 2013 then we had in 2007 or even 1993.

 

[455driver]

You mean you don't spend the time waiting for your guard to get the doors shut with your head out of the window giving the actual passengers who are delaying your train all that you give us on here?

We are the all too exclusive and privileged recipients of your charms, wits and propensity to frank observation I see!

Why would I want to look at that miserable bunch of <oh err missus>!
Dont worry they get their share as well, just like the bloke last Saturday at Clapham jn (4 coach train so I am right at the top of the stairs on P10), guard has shut the doors and given me the tip to go, Mr self important runs up the stairs just as I drop the brake so he decides to question my parentage by hurling a load of abuse at me, so I replied that I thought he was a self abuser (plus a few other bits)!

They might be the customer but I will talk to them the same way they talk to me!

 

[CockneySparrow]

Mainly because few stations apart from the principle stations in Scotland have ticket barriers, whereas most stations in England (especially down south) do have ticket barriers, and therefore don't need guards/inspectors. That's my understanding anyway

And ticket machines on unstaffed stations

Here in East Anglia the Greater Anglia rural routes all have guards, East Midlands have guards (Norwich-Liverpool) on every train, Cross Country do as well on the Stansted services but they never come round between March and Cambridge though, possibly due to either the gates at Cambridge or too many people standing

FCC between Ely and Lynn is very rare you see a guard probably a 30% chance, Cambridge to London on both FCC and GA a 10% chance

Oh on the Greater Anglia services between Lynn and Cambridge there is never ever a guard, I've known the fare dodger brigade wave goodbye to the FCC train on stations on that route for a guaranteed free ride on a GA train which comes in next lol

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Just out of curiosity, is there a list of DOO worked lines on Network Rail infrastructure? I'm sure the forum could cobble one together if one doesn't already exist.

 

[Starmill]

Just out of curiosity, is there a list of DOO worked lines on Network Rail infrastructure? I'm sure the forum could cobble one together if one doesn't already exist.

I would be fascinated to read one!

 

[313103]

Just out of curiosity, is there a list of DOO worked lines on Network Rail infrastructure? I'm sure the forum could cobble one together if one doesn't already exist.

In theory every single piece of Network Rail could be used in DOO mode. 99.9% of freight traffic is DOO. The only freight trains that still have Guards (as far as I am aware) are the Nuclear fuel traffic. Every other freight train operates in DOO mode.

Virtually 70% of passenger services is DOO in the London area (the former Thames Trains is 100%, Chiltern Railways was until the introduction of Class 67 operation 100% not sure now, London Overground is around 60%, First Capital Connect is 100%, Greater Anglia is around 80% with all suburban and some longer distance services operating in DOO, C2C is nearly at 100% with only 12 car operation excluded from DOO, South Eastern all suburban and some main line including HS1 services, Southern all suburban and some main line, South West Trains 0%). Ironically Waterloo is the very last main line station in London where all Passenger services are worked with a Guard. All the others having some form of DOO operation.

The introduction of New trains where Drivers open doors, is a form of DOO through the back door. London Overground would therefore be around 95% DOO in one form or another (with only the Gospel Oak to Barking and the one pixie buster from Woodgrange Park to Willesden Junction being the only services operated in conventional mode) and the same could be said for those companies that use the Electrostar fleet ie Southern and South Eastern, So it could well be argued that the figure of DOO operation and partial DOO operation would rise into the high 90% of services.

I cannot speak for services outside London, but I am sure the form of driver opens doors and Guard closes occur on the pendoleno stock and the voyager stock (someone who works on these trains can clarify if this true). That would push the DOO figure higher.

Notwithstanding the proposal to make the GWML completely DOO when electrification is complete.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Notwithstanding the proposal to make the GWML completely DOO when electrification is complete.

They're going to get rid of TM's on Intercity services then? Nice of them to tell us.

 

[davetheguard]

In theory every single piece of Network Rail could be used in DOO mode. 99.9% of freight traffic is DOO. The only freight trains that still have Guards (as far as I am aware) are the Nuclear fuel traffic. Every other freight train operates in DOO mode.

Virtually 70% of passenger services is DOO in the London area (the former Thames Trains is 100%, Chiltern Railways was until the introduction of Class 67 operation 100% not sure now, London Overground is around 60%, First Capital Connect is 100%, Greater Anglia is around 80% with all suburban and some longer distance services operating in DOO, C2C is nearly at 100% with only 12 car operation excluded from DOO, South Eastern all suburban and some main line including HS1 services, Southern all suburban and some main line, South West Trains 0%). Ironically Waterloo is the very last main line station in London where all Passenger services are worked with a Guard. All the others having some form of DOO operation.

The introduction of New trains where Drivers open doors, is a form of DOO through the back door. London Overground would therefore be around 95% DOO in one form or another (with only the Gospel Oak to Barking and the one pixie buster from Woodgrange Park to Willesden Junction being the only services operated in conventional mode) and the same could be said for those companies that use the Electrostar fleet ie Southern and South Eastern, So it could well be argued that the figure of DOO operation and partial DOO operation would rise into the high 90% of services.

I cannot speak for services outside London, but I am sure the form of driver opens doors and Guard closes occur on the pendoleno stock and the voyager stock (someone who works on these trains can clarify if this true). That would push the DOO figure higher.

Notwithstanding the proposal to make the GWML completely DOO when electrification is complete.

Don't ALL Chiltern Railways north of Banbury have Guards? - they certainly had them long after DOO was brought in south of Banbury

 

[313103]

They're going to get rid of TM's on Intercity services then? Nice of them to tell us.

I only found out at our Train Grades conference in Cardiff earlier in the year. Discussions have already started with ASLEF (no surprise there) about DOO, but when requested to have the matter discussed with the RMT they were declined.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't ALL Chiltern Railways north of Banbury have Guards? - they certainly had them long after DOO was brought in south of Banbury

Cant really answer that, I was originally at Marylebone and was made surplus to requirements and as far as I know all trains went DOO then.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I think removal of on-board staff on Intercity services will be an exceedingly bad move. I was also told that buffets will not be included either. Essentially the new Intercity services are shaping up to be a driver up the front and just pile everyone in. There might be something for first class. But that's it. Looks like the IEP age will herald an age of very poor customer service standards. Something needs to be done about this. It looks like it's a case of fares going up, staff being sacked and facilities to passengers lost. Have these companies learnt nothing from current DOO operation? It may work for the company but that doesn't mean it's good for the public.

Look on the bright side though. You'll soon be able to go from London - Swansea 1st class for almost nothing! There will be nobody to check and keep an eye on things!

 

[Carlisle]

I do not get the feeling the majority of staff on voyagers and pendelinos whose doors are released by the driver as some have pointed out ,see this as partial DOO ,it more seen as a slight ajustment to established procedure, for this type of train to go Doo safely i think they would need fitting with external cameras etc at considerable expense.

 

[313103]

I do not get the feeling the majority of staff on voyagers and pendelinos whose doors are released by the driver as some have pointed out ,see this as partial DOO ,it more seen as a slight ajustment to established procedure, for this type of train to go Doo safely i think they would need fitting with external cameras etc at considerable expense.

If it is not partial DOO, then what is it? I don't see it (as someone who is a Guard) as a slight adjustment to established procedure. I see it as the driver doing more of my job and me having less and less to do, therefore making it easy for the company to dispense with my services. I am only trained in full Guards competencies because we work on class 172s for the Gospel Oak to Barking line. Once these go, there will be no need to train Guards on there full competence.

 

[A-driver]

As I have already said, I have heard on good authority that the DfT will not be setting up any more DOO franchises as the safety case against it is currently too strong so I would be very surprised if any intercity franchises or others are converted.

 

[WestCoast]

Don't ALL Chiltern Railways north of Banbury have Guards? - they certainly had them long after DOO was brought in south of Banbury

Yes all Chiltern services have commercial guards north of Banbury.

 

[Captain Chaos]

As I have already said, I have heard on good authority that the DfT will not be setting up any more DOO franchises as the safety case against it is currently too strong so I would be very surprised if any intercity franchises or others are converted.

Out of interest is there any Intercity Operator in the world that actually runs an Intercity service in DOO operation and without any on-board staff or catering?

 

[ainsworth74]

The business about IC services going over to DOO without guards or any other staff sounds a little like scaremongering to me. Unfortunately I can however see them with no real catering and only trolleys.

 

[Oswyntail]

I think removal of on-board staff on Intercity services will be an exceedingly bad move. I was also told that buffets will not be included either. Essentially the new Intercity services are shaping up to be a driver up the front and just pile everyone in. There might be something for first class. But that's it. Looks like the IEP age will herald an age of very poor customer service standards. Something needs to be done about this. It looks like it's a case of fares going up, staff being sacked and facilities to passengers lost. Have these companies learnt nothing from current DOO operation? It may work for the company but that doesn't mean it's good for the public.

Look on the bright side though. You'll soon be able to go from London - Swansea 1st class for almost nothing! There will be nobody to check and keep an eye on things!

How many of these (and all such) apocalyptic visions of the future are:-

• documented fact in the public domain
• union scaremongering
• wild imaginings
• someone being told the truth by Arthur whose mate Gladys heard it from someone passing by in the local chippy.

?