Inspectors.

[overthewater]

I have aways wonder, why do nearly all Scottish trains carry inspectors, who checks tickets, works the doors, patrols the carriages. While done in England you be lucky to see anyone go up and down the trains in a hourly period or even be ankle to help you?

I also remember there tried to get rid of them on the airdrie -bathgate line, it went down like a lead balloon.

 

[northern156]

Guards*

 

[Searle]

Mainly because few stations apart from the principle stations in Scotland have ticket barriers, whereas most stations in England (especially down south) do have ticket barriers, and therefore don't need guards/inspectors. That's my understanding anyway

 

[scotsman]

Several reasons.

1. Many stations don't have ticket offices open full time
2. As you said, Conductors are required to perform safety critical duties on many routes
3. Where there is Driver Only Operation, ScotRail are fined £500 per service which departs without a Ticket Examiner on board.

You've got your facts a bit skewed, Re: Airdrie - Bathgate. Services from Edinburgh to Bathgate were operated by Conductors and drivers, whilst trains from Glasgow to Airdrie were operated by Drivers only - Conductors went on strike over Conductors being withdrawn between Edinburgh and Bathgate.

 

[overthewater]

Cheers for that.

Every time I have been on airdrie section, now and even before the extended line opened I remember seeing guards/conductors etc being on them.

 

[Starmill]

Don't all SouthWest Trains services carry a guard? I'm not local to their services and have been on a few recently and, among other 'culture shocks' from the Northern services I use every day they don't seem to check tickets, though lots of SWTs stations do have barriers.

I'm not sure the presence of this member of staff has anything to do with the ticket arrangements though, that only has an effect on what their duties are. Certainly on Northern services, the guard is there because s/he HAS to be there. Only routes converted to Driver Only Operation can run without one? Are there any DOO services in England outside the SouthEast? I am unclear on the scottish situation.

 

[causton]

Don't all SouthWest Trains services carry a guard? I'm not local to their services and have been on a few recently and, among other 'culture shocks' from the Northern services I use every day they don't seem to check tickets, though lots of SWTs stations do have barriers.

Yes, all SWT services (for now ) have guards. Some have ticket machines and so are 'commercial' guards, some don't and are 'non-commercial' - you will usually find the latter on urban local services in the London area and the former on the high speed 'intercity' (as much of that as SWT has!) services!

 

[Greenback]

I have aways wonder, why do nearly all Scottish trains carry inspectors, who checks tickets, works the doors, patrols the carriages. While done in England you be lucky to see anyone go up and down the trains in a hourly period or even be ankle to help you?

You haven't mentioned Wales, which I'm gald about because the guards on my local ATW services are very proactive and very visible. They do a ticket check, even if they haven't got time to do each carriage, between every station.

The only exceptions to this are when the train is overcrowded and they can't get out of the cab!

It must also be remembered that on some lines, due to the position of the door controls and the length of the train, the intervals between stops can be so short as to make any patrol impossible.

 

[Starmill]

You haven't mentioned Wales, which I'm gald about because the guards on my local ATW services are very proactive and very visible. They do a ticket check, even if they haven't got time to do each carriage, between every station.

The only exceptions to this are when the train is overcrowded and they can't get out of the cab!

It must also be remembered that on some lines, due to the position of the door controls and the length of the train, the intervals between stops can be so short as to make any patrol impossible.

Haha, try selling even a one ticket between Birchgrove and Ty Glas!

Seriously though, it really does seem as though ATW guards do very well indeed for this.

By contrast, my local saying is that Northern services around here are half price from 18:30 to 21:00 (because of GM evening returns) and free after that!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Haha, try selling even a one ticket between Birchgrove and Ty Glas!

Seriously though, it really does seem as though ATW guards do very well indeed for this.

By contrast, my local saying is that Northern services around here are half price from 18:30 to 21:00 (because of GM evening returns) and free after that!

They wouldn't be if there was Security, That airport line is getting as bad as Hadfields, It doesn't help when people want to pay for cheap evening returns from mauldeth road to Picc with there Debit card 95 bloomin pence! yesterday however I got everyone a lot of unhappy passengers from Mauldeth road and gutted G4S at Piccadilly lol

 

[yorkie]

I also remember there tried to get rid of them on the airdrie -bathgate line, it went down like a lead balloon.

This is totally incorrect.

There was no attempt to get rid of ticket inspectors on this route. In fact, the line is new, and ticket inspectors were always planned to be introduced.

But there was some resistance to replacing Guards on the existing Bathgate-Edinburgh section with ticket inspectors.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I have aways wonder, why do nearly all Scottish trains carry inspectors, who checks tickets, works the doors, patrols the carriages. While done in England you be lucky to see anyone go up and down the trains in a hourly period or even be ankle to help you?

I also remember there tried to get rid of them on the airdrie -bathgate line, it went down like a lead balloon.

I question the very premise of this question. I catch trains almost every day across Birmingham and always see the guard checking tickets. The last two times I was on a train in Scotland I didn't have my ticket checked at all. Could I ask the opposite question and say my sample size of one person is every bit as valid as yours?

 

[Mojo]

Only routes converted to Driver Only Operation can run without one? Are there any DOO services in England outside the SouthEast? I am unclear on the scottish situation.

Both the lines and the trains have to be compatible with Driver Only Operation (Passenger) before passenger train services can run without a guard. Outside of the London & South East rail area the only other services that are driver only are the electric services around the Greater Glasgow Area (sometimes referred to as SPT or Strathclyde area services). Under the terms of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement and the franchise itself, all services must have a rostered Ticket Examiner on-board, but the services can run without one, subject to any penalties which exist in the terms of the agreements.

 

[A-driver]

I have actually heard that the DfT are no longer going to allow any more franchises to go DOO. It seems that after a string of incidents involving doo trains nationwide they are admitting its not the best system. I also know of one or two companies who have been warned that if they have any further incidents they will be forced to remove doo working and employ guards.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

I have actually heard that the DfT are no longer going to allow any more franchises to go DOO. It seems that after a string of incidents involving doo trains nationwide they are admitting its not the best system. I also know of one or two companies who have been warned that if they have any further incidents they will be forced to remove doo working and employ guards.

What, like they do on Mersey Rail?
What string of incidents nationwide? I bet on a percentage basis it's no worse than in the days of slam door trains and every train carrying a Guards.

 

[notadriver]

Isn't Crossrail going to be DOO?

 

[overthewater]

I question the very premise of this question. I catch trains almost every day across Birmingham and always see the guard checking tickets. The last two times I was on a train in Scotland I didn't have my ticket checked at all. Could I ask the opposite question and say my sample size of one person is every bit as valid as yours?

I have been on trains across Scotland and I have always seen guards, I have i never been on a train with out one. The only time the ticket cant get check if the train is soo full, again that happens all the time.

You seem to be rather unhappy with my original question

 

[notadriver]

Maybe because the original question is a load of nonsense ?

 

[Captain Chaos]

What, like they do on Mersey Rail?
What string of incidents nationwide? I bet on a percentage basis it's no worse than in the days of slam door trains and every train carrying a Guards.

I'm not sure who is source is. But this is the second time I have heard this from someone. I could hazard a guess and say it could be about mitigating the risk of SASSPAD's and to do with the recent Mersey Rail case? I'm taking random stabs in the dark here because I'm a little confused tbh.

Mind you, from my point of view being a Guard, I can't say I'd complain about more work etc. I have always been annoyed with the DOO set-up in the South East anyway. Scotrail's makes sense to me if you're going to do it. At least it's sensible and still provides staff presence which people do value, particularly during disruption. I'm lucky to see one person a year on my line when I'm travelling on lates.

 

[A-driver]

DOO isn't actually cheaper-it costs in delays and maintaining equipment. It was set up when the network was much quieter. With the volume of passengers on some routes now the DfT and various rail standards agencies are getting itchy feet about it-not just Liverpool but the numerous other incidents including passengers detraining themselves in disruption etc.

I don't have a source in writing but it's been heavily discussed in branch meetings and has come from those high up in ASLEF who are in constant dialogue with those who make these decisions (yes I know, a union not planning strikes to get more pay but proactively trying to improve the safety of its members...)

EDIT...

Having re-read that last bit-it's not the union pushing for an end to doo but something various rail safety organisations have pushed for following incidents etc.

 

[overthewater]

Maybe because the original question is a load of nonsense ?

i have traveled on train down in England in places like Essex, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire and I have never ever seen a guard. At stations its a guy who is based at said stations that checks the doors etc

 

[A-driver]

i have traveled on train down in England in places like Essex, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire and I have never ever seen a guard. At station its a guy who is based at said stations that checks the doors etc

In the southeast commuter routes the majority of services are DOO. Once you get out of the southeast and into the west, Wales, the north or Scotland DOO is the minority.

Essex, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire see a majority of London bound commuter services operated by greater Anglia and FCC who are both DOO (well almost completely DOO). If you go to England but out if the London commuter belt you will find it to be much more like Scotland on terms of guards/on board staff.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I don't think anybody is disputing that your experiences are true, but even so the anecdotal evidence of one individual is not enough for your premise in the original post to be taken truly representative of the bigger picture.

 

[Greenback]

I certainly think that the original post could have been worded better. Perhaps a question as to why trains in certain areas don't have guards rather than a sweeping generalisation of an entire country!

Still, there is an interesting topic in there somewhere!

 

[The Barlow Boy]

They don't have Guards because in just about all of the South-East the reason for a "Guard" has been negated.
The strangest is the North Downs line where upon arrival at a station the Driver has the decision to release the doors but is signalled by the Guard when to close them. If the Guard was truly in charge of the train why isn't that person both releasing and closing them?

 

[notadriver]

In the South East area I believe SWT are the only TOC whose guards retain full responsability over opening and closing of power operated doors. In many others the driver releases them but the guard is still in charge of closing them and giving the right away signal and so is in charge of the train.

 

[Starmill]

DOO isn't actually cheaper-it costs in delays and maintaining equipment. It was set up when the network was much quieter. With the volume of passengers on some routes now the DfT and various rail standards agencies are getting itchy feet about it-not just Liverpool but the numerous other incidents including passengers detraining themselves in disruption etc.

The pair of 377s at Kentish Town. Now tell me a guard would not have been useful in that situation.

 

[notadriver]

The pair of 377s at Kentish Town. Now tell me a guard would not have been useful in that situation.

Agreed but a revenue inspector trained in the use of the PA would have been adequate too.

 

[Starmill]

In the South East area I believe SWT are the only TOC whose guards retain full responsability over opening and closing of power operated doors. In many others the driver releases them but the guard is still in charge of closing them and giving the right away signal and so is in charge of the train.

Could this be London Overground you're getting at? Don't the 378s with guards still have their doors released by the driver? Though tbf, I really don't get London Overgound. Either they're going DOO or not, surely the two different operating procedures are getting in the way of operational efficiency? I can understand why GOBLIN might be different but...

And also... something I found out recently that kinda blew my mind... doesn't the driver operate the doors on Pendolinos and Voyagers? Just with signals from the guard for when to close the doors, but then the RA as elsewhere?

Agreed but a revenue inspector trained in the use of the PA would have been adequate too.

Agreed, in fact I think even two platform staff might have helped no end! It's just the fact that there is only one person in charge of anything up to 12 coaches...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They wouldn't be if there was Security, That airport line is getting as bad as Hadfields, It doesn't help when people want to pay for cheap evening returns from mauldeth road to Picc with there Debit card 95 bloomin pence! yesterday however I got everyone a lot of unhappy passengers from Mauldeth road and gutted G4S at Piccadilly lol

Good on you

I bought one of the very same (£0.90) from the East Coast Travel Centre at Newcastle this afternoon, the clerk had to get a colleague over to check there wasn't some mistake because it was so cheap!

Perhaps if the stations were staffed until the last train like they do in Merseyside you wouldn't need to try and sell so many...

Though on your first point are you sure? Hadfield is baaaaad at times.

 

[tsr]

The pair of 377s at Kentish Town. Now tell me a guard would not have been useful in that situation.

Unfortunately, passengers will still detrain themselves even if a guard is on board - I recall one incident on a last winter where 10 passengers detrained from a Southern commuter service waiting in a queue just north of Redhill, simply because it was stuck in a slow-moving queue of trains behind a major breakdown. I'm pretty sure that wasn't DOO! Likewise some notable incidents on the SWT network in recent years.