Incident at Rotherham Central 06/04

[AlterEgo]

None of us know how the incident unfolded, we don’t know what circumstances where nor if there were even any instructions from control not to open the doors etc.

10/10 to the guard for his/her actions.

Yes, they were doing well until they allegedly dispatched the train when there were people making contact with it. This can kill people.

 

[DarloRich]

The railway likes to prosecute people privately for minor fare discrepancies or offer swingeing out of court settlements. Perhaps it could do so for these offences? I would strongly support this.

but they aren't going to because the fare breaches are open and shut cases

That you can't understand that is a big concern - no doubt other football fans don't understand it either.

I understand entirely. I simply point out there is no real threat and if people are worried by something that offers no real threat they must struggle with life in general!

1) yes, yes they do. Football clubs pay for policing outside to a limited degree. You missed the point of my post, they should pay a hell of a lot more. The trouble is derived from the fact this company decided to have a football match and invite 11,000 people along and allow them to get boisterous. They should pay for the policing, not the general tax payer.

Is that right? Can you provide me with any evidence? Clubs pay for policing on their land. Tax payers pay for the rest. The high courrt agfree dwith this in 2012 when Leeds sued and won on this very point against West Yorkshire Police. Is that right? No. Do I think clubs should make more of a contribution? Yes. Do they do so today. No

2) where are you getting you statistics from? We’re you there? Was there enough police for the 100 fans? Because I doubt you were there and by the sounds of it, there weren’t enough police.

The crowd figure is taken from the BBC website. Thye publish these things. The rest is made via informed extrapolation based on many years watching and traveling to football at all levels.

Stop arguing for arguments sake. Every post I see from you is intimidating and bullying, why do you feel the need to be so aggressive?

sigh., yet another poster who cant cope with having their view criticised. I will point out areas where you and others are wrong. THis was one of them.

3) no reported trouble? So the guard didn’t open the doors because he/she was being intentionally awkward then?? Again, we’re you there?

You honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Use of the word " trouble" is well understood by people who go to football. For the avoidance of doubt it does not refer ot people snging songs!

4) going to a football match by train is not an offence, you’re quite right. Was that all these people were doing then? Why did the guard feel it unsafe to open the doors for a group of very pleasant football fans all smiling and having a good time on the platform and causing no issues whatsoever.

yes - that is what these people were doing. Nothing in the opening post points to disorder of any kind.

And I don’t know what I’m talking about

it is good we can agree on something.

 

[Gems]

No, I know exactly what is and isn't *unacceptable behaviour*. Again, there's a distinction between unacceptable behaviour and danger. You seem to be overegging what posters here are actually saying in order to justify your points.

Failure to manage football hooliganism on the railway leads to passengers feeling intimidated, staff being assaulted, and trains and stations being vandalised. Football hooliganism makes life absolute hell for rail staff and other passengers and if you choose not to understand that (and from your post, it sounds as though you actively engage in such behaviour or have done so in the past) I'm not wasting my time arguing further.

Is it not more of a perception of being intimidated. Everybody can be intimidated by something, and the level of intimidation varies from person to person. One example is that immediately after the London tube bombings one woman came rushing up to tell me a Asian man with a beard was acting suspiciously. Checking it was discovered the poor guy had only changed seats to stretch his legs.
It's all relative isn't it. A gaggle of spotty teenagers can be intimidating, so can a hen party. Just because a group of football fans board a train doesn't make them a threat.

 

[jamiearmley]

robbeech said: ↑
What would you tell the coroner?



The fact here that was mentioned a few posts ago is that nothing will happen here. It’ll be covered up and nobody will be dismissed and likely nobody will receive any disciplinary action because of it, despite the offence committed by the guard (as I understand it from the evidence given in this topic) being one that would generally require their employment to be terminated.
I’m sad to say that the dispatch procedure at this TOC is not adhered to fully by a number of guards and I’m unsurprised to read this. I accept this situation is somewhat out of the ordinary but I regularly see guards close the doors, immediately close the local door, give 2 on the buzzer and walk off, either down the train for revenue duties or more often into the back cab. They can sometimes be in the cab before the reciprocal 2 buzzes from the driver is heard and often well before the train takes power. I’ve witnessed dispatch from the front cab of a 142 followed by sitting with the driver, again before they take power. I’ve witnessed very frequent door release without looking. I’ve witnessed the rear of a 142 and 158 combo not be on the platform and the guard release the doors anyway instead of giving 6.


I am a guard. I'm sad to see this.

I am not disputing that it happens : in any workplace, there are likely to be those who on occasion fail to follow procedure.

I am also aware that there can be situations where some things described above are necessary : i have, for example, been instructed by control to dispatch from the front of the train in order that i may accompany the driver whilst inspecting the line.

I too am aware of a colleague who was dismissed for failing to follow dispatch procedure correctly.

Please, if you see something take place which you have reason to believe compromises the safety of the railway, report it through the proper channels. For the avoidance of doubt, the proper channels do not include facebook, twitter, or this forum.

Rest assured it will be investigated.

 

[DanTrain]

I attended the game as a neutral, in the home end, and was attempting to get home to Lincolnshire after the game.

I was on the platform, which was pretty much full with Forest fans, who were naturally going back to Sheffield, to connect with trains back to Nottingham.

The train arrived, and everything was calm on the platform - everybody was patiently waiting for the doors to open up. After about 2 minutes of the train sat in the station, and it became obvious the door weren't being opened, a handful of people were gently banging on the doors - there was no malice, they just wanted to get on the train and go home. I've seen much, much worse.

There were a handful of BTP officers at the station - a couple of them on that platform, and the other 3 stood watching from the footbridge. None of them had a hand-held camera, so it was not obvious if they were filming.

Had the guard simply opened the door, and let as many passengers on as is safely allowed, everything would have been sorted and the train would have gone fairly quickly. Surely the guard could have enforced, with the help of BTP, that everyone got on through his door, in single-file, and made people walk down the train. Once full, he closes the door and away they go... allowing the next train to pick up the remainder. The problem was the silence from BTP and the non-appearance of the guard from the train. Nobody knew what was going on.

In the end, I went over the near empty other platform, and went home via Doncaster rather than Sheffield - leaving Rotherham at about 5.45pm.

Thank you for that...nice to have someone who actually saw this on the thread. What you describe doesn't massively surprise me, I suspect teh banging on the train may have been more pronounced from inside the train but your account does make me wonder why the guard didn't just open the doors as normal...might have made the whole situation a lot easier for everyone!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understand entirely. I simply point out there is no real threat and if people are worried by something that offers no real threat they must struggle with life in general!

The thing is that people think things are threatening that aren't all the time - the most significant example I can think of being people who cross fast roads on the level throughout MK instead of using the underpasses which statistically aren't dangerous.

You could say we shouldn't pander to that, but I think really people do need to consider others when choosing how they behave in public (including how much they drink, if the drink encourages them to act that way). While more information suggests they were just knocking on the doors to be let in, if they had been banging on the windows etc then that creates a feeling of physical threat in most people not familiar with going to the football.

To use an example, I'm a very big bloke and probably look quite threatening even if I'm about the least violent person the world has ever known (big dogs just growl, small ones bite, if you see what I mean). So I tend to avoid walking closely behind people at night, for instance, and either pass quickly or cross the road so they don't think I'm following them. I am in fact no threat to them, but I feel it's right to consider their perception too.

 

[robbeech]

I'm telling you now. The last guard caught walking away from the doors before it had left the station was sacked.

It doesn't matter what you think of Northern. The fact is that this TOC do actually take passenger/train interface seriously. As for people saying railway workers are against the guard. Yes they may well be against him, that is because they have perhaps a deeper understanding of what was at stake here. As a guard myself, I will not support a colleague who rides a coach and horses through safety. I won't, most of my colleagues won't, and neither will the RMT. We have fought a long and painful two year dispute over safety, damn sure we are all not going to become hypocritical now defending the indefensible.

robbeech said: ↑
What would you tell the coroner?



The fact here that was mentioned a few posts ago is that nothing will happen here. It’ll be covered up and nobody will be dismissed and likely nobody will receive any disciplinary action because of it, despite the offence committed by the guard (as I understand it from the evidence given in this topic) being one that would generally require their employment to be terminated.
I’m sad to say that the dispatch procedure at this TOC is not adhered to fully by a number of guards and I’m unsurprised to read this. I accept this situation is somewhat out of the ordinary but I regularly see guards close the doors, immediately close the local door, give 2 on the buzzer and walk off, either down the train for revenue duties or more often into the back cab. They can sometimes be in the cab before the reciprocal 2 buzzes from the driver is heard and often well before the train takes power. I’ve witnessed dispatch from the front cab of a 142 followed by sitting with the driver, again before they take power. I’ve witnessed very frequent door release without looking. I’ve witnessed the rear of a 142 and 158 combo not be on the platform and the guard release the doors anyway instead of giving 6.


I am a guard. I'm sad to see this.

I am not disputing that it happens : in any workplace, there are likely to be those who on occasion fail to follow procedure.

I am also aware that there can be situations where some things described above are necessary : i have, for example, been instructed by control to dispatch from the front of the train in order that i may accompany the driver whilst inspecting the line.

I too am aware of a colleague who was dismissed for failing to follow dispatch procedure correctly.

Please, if you see something take place which you have reason to believe compromises the safety of the railway, report it through the proper channels. For the avoidance of doubt, the proper channels do not include facebook, twitter, or this forum.

Rest assured it will be investigated.

It’s good to know that things are taken more seriously than it seems. The thoughts that many people have (perhaps me included although less so) is that by complaining direct to the toc gives significant scope for things to be brushed under the carpet whilst making it public stands more chance of things being dealt with, especially when people pipe up to comment with other examples of the same things that aren’t quite right. The correct channels are all well and good (and I agree this is the most suitable approach as a minimum) but the same guards are still doing it months later even after multiple instances of contact to the correct people so they’re either doing nothing about it or the people don’t care and think (or know) they can get away with it.
My main issue is the way they do seem to get away with it (though it appears not every time which is good to know) combined with the attitude you can get from them when they’re required to do things such as their job. It’s clear but worth reiterating that it’s a minority but it only takes 1.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The railway likes to prosecute people privately for minor fare discrepancies or offer swingeing out of court settlements. Perhaps it could do so for these offences? I would strongly support this.



A large number of loud football fans shouting, singing (often with lots of swearing) and banging on a train is intimidating to the vast majority of people who do not typically attend football matches[1], particularly young children and women (that sounds sexist, but typically blokes *are* harder to intimidate). That you can't understand that is a big concern - no doubt other football fans don't understand it either.

[1] Not even *all* football matches. MK Dons, for instance, is a very "family" club and is far less intimidating than some.

Back in summer 2017 I was on a crowded ECML service to Leeds with hundreds of other Huddersfield Town supporters, celebrating the promotion our lads had just achieved. The singing was loud, constant and quite "blue"... at Stevenage a couple with young children boarded our coach and were the only non-football fans in the coach. 4 big lads who had been leading the chants got up from their table and allowed the family to take the seats. One of them had a quick amicable chat with the father and the four of them stood in the aisle. They then started the singing again but quieter, and with the naughty words substituted for ones that were silly rather than rude. The kids (aged around 8-10) were very entertained!

Just goes to show that football fans are humans, and usually demonstrate the same situational awareness that any right-thinking person would.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just goes to show that football fans are humans, and usually demonstrate the same situational awareness that any right-thinking person would.

A lot of them are, and the culture in the traditional working class football fans you often get (which I suspect is the same culture @DarloRich comes from) puts a lot of weight on children and making sure they are OK.

But it's not those people we are talking of, it's the thugs. One thing that surprises me about football fans is that there is often a lot of defence of that kind of thuggery, when it's what gives them a bad name and really they should be opposing or at least ignoring it. It's a bit like an amazingly large number of otherwise right-thinking cyclists (the ones who e.g. don't run red lights) seem to like to defend those who give them a bad name by doing so. Perhaps it's a pack mentality?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Just goes to show that football fans are humans, and usually demonstrate the same situational awareness that any right-thinking person would.

Also just to add that football fans act more like normal human beings that are members of society if people treat them as such.

It is when you treat them as "others" that causes tempers to get (often understandably) frayed. Things like the mass surveillance of innocent parties, or the banning of all football fans from a pub, or the label of "risk supporter" being put onto people just because they are in the same pub as other (legitimate or not legitimate) "risk supporters", etc. Or in this case the mass barring of an entire platforms worth of passengers from a train they have every right to board (and some of whom may have had to catch that train as part of a larger journey on an advance ticket!) for no actual real reason apart form "oh look lots of football fans".

Also shock horror, this logic applies to most human beings. You treat a group of people like animals or thugs and they will act in that way!

But it's not those people we are talking of, it's the thugs

Are we? Since when? One of the comments 61653 HTAFC is replying to was specifically about the "drinking and singing" which apparently is so reprehensible, yet you now claim you aren't talking about those groups of people!

 

[Class377]

People are afraid to blame them because of Hillsborough.
I admit I have very limited knowledge of the event but at the end of the day, most football fans decided to walk through that gate instead of thinking it was simply too busy. Personal responsibility = zero.

Football is under a lot of pressure at the moment, racism, hooliganism...
Perhaps a way to solve it is allow NOBODY to watch the games live at the grounds for a year or two.
Or everyone has to have a season ticket.
Or maybe massive (really huge) police/security attendance. Anyone drunk - off, banned for 5 years.
Harsh punishments will be the only way to set examples.


Perhaps the guard decided all the people clearly won't get on and thus, probably knowing the tram may take some away, the following train may be able to cope. Therefore it would be better to pick up nobody than some people.
The facts presented by the OP shows the train waited at the platform for a while - perhaps enough time for the guard to speak to their controller and agree no pickup/set down would be the safest option?

You might want to consider what you’ve just posted. Not only is what you have posted highly offensive to the families of the victims, but also legally questionable.

Are you really suggesting we close off ALL football matches for two years, causing millions of well-behaved and innocent fans to lose out, because of the behaviour of a tiny minority of idiots?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A lot of them are, and the culture in the traditional working class football fans you often get (which I suspect is the same culture @DarloRich comes from) puts a lot of weight on children and making sure they are OK.

But it's not those people we are talking of, it's the thugs. One thing that surprises me about football fans is that there is often a lot of defence of that kind of thuggery, when it's what gives them a bad name and really they should be opposing or at least ignoring it. It's a bit like an amazingly large number of otherwise right-thinking cyclists (the ones who e.g. don't run red lights) seem to like to defend those who give them a bad name by doing so. Perhaps it's a pack mentality?

There is very little defence of thuggish behaviour in my experience. Those that remember the dark days of the 1980s (and the deaths which resulted from treating supporters like caged animals) know that we have to be mindful of those in our groups who might get a little bit carried away. If someone is singing vulgar songs around families, chances are they'll be calmly "reprimanded" by one of their own.

If someone is behaving as if they're about to lamp someone they'll again be restrained and calmed by those with them. If they actually do lamp someone they'll generally be dumped into the custody of the police.

Re: the "Pack mentality", that's something that contributed to the Hillsborough disaster and which the South Yorkshire Police didn't really have an understanding of. Modern stadia (and indeed railway stations) put a lot of thought into crowd dynamics. In 1989 the match command weren't well versed in how people in a crowd behave very differently to individuals, so the opening of those gates was not expected to lead to the carnage it did.

 

[DanTrain]

Can we PLEASE stop talking about Hillsborough. Not only is it risking deeply offending people, it is also not a valid parallel to draw to a few fans attacking a train. I'm beginning to regret starting this thread, it's descending into a mudfight. How about slightly less blaming everyone and slightly more how this sort of thing can be averted in future!

 

[Darandio]

People are afraid to blame them because of Hillsborough.
I admit I have very limited knowledge of the event but at the end of the day, most football fans decided to walk through that gate instead of thinking it was simply too busy. Personal responsibility = zero.

I seem to recall you posted an incendiary thread not so long ago relating to Hillsborough which also showed your limited knowledge and understanding of events that day. It was adequately explained to you in your own thread and there was ample time for you to digest it all before the thread was eventually removed. Yet you still try it on again.

There is one word for people like you.

 

[MrBurnz]

I have experienced very large groups of football fans in Newcastle Station, on a derby day aswell.
(Newcastle Vs Sunderland)

I found it a little uncomfortable in the ststion at that time, due to the atmosphere that Sunday, it was electric, it really was not a good idea to be there if you were a Sunderland supporter (I'm not, I was awaiting the train back to Edinburgh) & the fact that right outside the front of the station, there was serious fighting amongst the supporters, which at the time, made the teatime news on ITV.

Whilst waiting on our train to arrive, myself & the rest of the stag party, witnessed a large group of supporters surround a pacer that had arrived at one of the platforms, the police (around 7 or 8 officers) then ran down to the platform & stood at the doors of the pacer, you could feel the tension, as the group who had surrounded the train were really really vocal, & not in a pleasant way.

We did not get to see what happened after that, as our train (thankfully arrived), I was very glad to get on the Class 91 that day.

Also to add, this is in NO WAY a dig at Newcastle or Sunderland supporters, it's more the uncomfortable, tensioned atmosphere that was evident that day.

So, I can see where the guard was coming from in doing what they did.

 

[Iskra]

but they aren't going to because the fare breaches are open and shut cases



I understand entirely. I simply point out there is no real threat and if people are worried by something that offers no real threat they must struggle with life in general!



Is that right? Can you provide me with any evidence? Clubs pay for policing on their land. Tax payers pay for the rest. The high courrt agfree dwith this in 2012 when Leeds sued and won on this very point against West Yorkshire Police. Is that right? No. Do I think clubs should make more of a contribution? Yes. Do they do so today. No



The crowd figure is taken from the BBC website. Thye publish these things. The rest is made via informed extrapolation based on many years watching and traveling to football at all levels.



sigh., yet another poster who cant cope with having their view criticised. I will point out areas where you and others are wrong. THis was one of them.



You honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Use of the word " trouble" is well understood by people who go to football. For the avoidance of doubt it does not refer ot people snging songs!



yes - that is what these people were doing. Nothing in the opening post points to disorder of any kind.



it is good we can agree on something.

Leeds won because West Yorkshire Police were stretching the definition of football policing to subsidise the general policing of Leeds (a major weekend drinking destination, irrespective of football) on a Saturday.

Why should LUFC subsidise local policing? They shouldn’t and that’s why they won.

The police only have themselves to blame for artificially inflating the costs to the clubs.

 

[Killingworth]

The truth is that groups of football supporters (and also some other groups) travelling together in common cause will enjoy friendly banter and good humour. It's inevitable. The difficulty we're all avoiding too much is that the TOCs know their trains will be busy and in many cases could provide more capacity. If they've no extra stock they know where and when pressure is likely to build. It's fairly predictable. Of course we may genuinely be so short of rolling stock that nothing could be done, yet I'm left wondering.

As one example it seemed odd to have to travel in a single unit 153 shuttle between Wakefield and Huddersfield when it must have been fairly obvious that Leicester City fans would be wanting to see their team collect seemingly easy points. I gather the following train to mine was equally packed. I couldn't see the doors for people when we stopped en route. The lads were polite, good humoured and in excellent voice. At Huddersfield 3 142s were parked out of apparent use.

The other example I gave was of a single 185 that I know TPE want to double up to 6 as soon as stock is released. In that case the doors had been opened before Sheffield, some had got out (possibly not able to see which station they were at due to the crush, or to allow people wanting to leave at Dore get through the train) and were having to push to get back in again. One door in particular then refused to show as locked. The choir on that train was also in good voice (don't know why Owls supporters were chanting Liverpool, Liverpool, but they were) but the train was going nowhere for 8 minutes as people jumped off and back on. 3 BTP were aboard the rear carriage, also jumping off and on to try and resolve the issue. The driver had a green light throughout and other trains now backing up.

In neither case was there any suggestion of hooliganism, although the banging of flat hands on the side of the 153 and fists pounding on the backs of seats in time to the singing was very loud. In both these cases the trains were carrying very full loads. It's a tribute to the majority of fans that there aren't more violent incidents. However the potential is not far away. It must happen many times across the nation almost every Saturday.

The guards have a very difficult job, caught between a rock and a hard place. At Piccadilly there are station staff on 13 and 14 always controlling crowds, familiar with telling people their train is over full, to stand back and they'll have to wait for the next. It's quite often not taken well and leads to angry exchanges that can and does delay trains further. Controlling the doors on a packed and besieged Pacer can't be much fun, especially without such platform back up.

The specific incident that started this thread is not for us to investigate as we can't be aware of everything that was said to who, where, when, why and by whom. Platform back up may have been less than adequate. Dr Beeching advised not to have many spare old coaches. The managers of today are unable to allocate enough of the ones we now have to meet short term and varied peak loads, not least because so many units are incompatible with each other, and there may be no paths or platforms for them to occupy when they are.

Once again we seem to come back to the fact that railways can convey crowds well, but only if they can provide sufficient trains to carry them in. Closely packed crowds, no matter how good humoured, can be very dangerous, in stadia, the street, the station or train. A badly phrased comment, an accidental trip, illness, anything can trigger something to cause a crowd to act irrationally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once again we seem to come back to the fact that railways can convey crowds well, but only if they can provide sufficient trains to carry them in. Closely packed crowds, no matter how good humoured, can be very dangerous, in stadia, the street, the station or train. A badly phrased comment, an accidental trip, illness, anything can trigger something to cause a crowd to act irrationally.

The situation is quite different between a 12-car Class 350 "people eater" out of Euston, or a 2-car 15x in the provinces. When there isn't enough capacity to carry even the normal passenger load, what hope do fans have?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The truth is that groups of football supporters (and also some other groups) travelling together in common cause will enjoy friendly banter and good humour. It's inevitable. The difficulty we're all avoiding too much is that the TOCs know their trains will be busy and in many cases could provide more capacity. If they've no extra stock they know where and when pressure is likely to build. It's fairly predictable. Of course we may genuinely be so short of rolling stock that nothing could be done, yet I'm left wondering.

As one example it seemed odd to have to travel in a single unit 153 shuttle between Wakefield and Huddersfield when it must have been fairly obvious that Leicester City fans would be wanting to see their team collect seemingly easy points. I gather the following train to mine was equally packed. I couldn't see the doors for people when we stopped en route. The lads were polite, good humoured and in excellent voice. At Huddersfield 3 142s were parked out of apparent use.

The other example I gave was of a single 185 that I know TPE want to double up to 6 as soon as stock is released. In that case the doors had been opened before Sheffield, some had got out (possibly not able to see which station they were at due to the crush, or to allow people wanting to leave at Dore get through the train) and were having to push to get back in again. One door in particular then refused to show as locked. The choir on that train was also in good voice (don't know why Owls supporters were chanting Liverpool, Liverpool, but they were) but the train was going nowhere for 8 minutes as people jumped off and back on. 3 BTP were aboard the rear carriage, also jumping off and on to try and resolve the issue. The driver had a green light throughout and other trains now backing up.

In neither case was there any suggestion of hooliganism, although the banging of flat hands on the side of the 153 and fists pounding on the backs of seats in time to the singing was very loud. In both these cases the trains were carrying very full loads. It's a tribute to the majority of fans that there aren't more violent incidents. However the potential is not far away. It must happen many times across the nation almost every Saturday.

The guards have a very difficult job, caught between a rock and a hard place. At Piccadilly there are station staff on 13 and 14 always controlling crowds, familiar with telling people their train is over full, to stand back and they'll have to wait for the next. It's quite often not taken well and leads to angry exchanges that can and does delay trains further. Controlling the doors on a packed and besieged Pacer can't be much fun, especially without such platform back up.

The specific incident that started this thread is not for us to investigate as we can't be aware of everything that was said to who, where, when, why and by whom. Platform back up may have been less than adequate. Dr Beeching advised not to have many spare old coaches. The managers of today are unable to allocate enough of the ones we now have to meet short term and varied peak loads, not least because so many units are incompatible with each other, and there may be no paths or platforms for them to occupy when they are.

Once again we seem to come back to the fact that railways can convey crowds well, but only if they can provide sufficient trains to carry them in. Closely packed crowds, no matter how good humoured, can be very dangerous, in stadia, the street, the station or train. A badly phrased comment, an accidental trip, illness, anything can trigger something to cause a crowd to act irrationally.

With specific reference to the Wakefield to Huddersfield 153, I'm surprised there were many Leicester supporters on that service now that it only serves Kirkgate. Sure, Kirkgate is reachable from Leicester with one change at Nottingham, but Huddersfield itself is only one change from Leicester (at Sheffield). Northern presumably made the same assessment when allocating stock to that service (and considering the platform length constraints mentioned upthread).

 

[Killingworth]

With specific reference to the Wakefield to Huddersfield 153, I'm surprised there were many Leicester supporters on that service now that it only serves Kirkgate. Sure, Kirkgate is reachable from Leicester with one change at Nottingham, but Huddersfield itself is only one change from Leicester (at Sheffield). Northern presumably made the same assessment when allocating stock to that service (and considering the platform length constraints mentioned upthread).

Seems a large contingent had sussed out that taking that Nottingham - Kirkgate, then the shuttle was best. However, the direct Leicester - Sheffield, then Sheffield - Huddersfield is not the quickest journey. That's Leicester - Chesterfield by East Midlands, Northern Chesterfield - Kirkgate, then Northern to Huddersfield - a good quarter of an hour better. Sheffield - Huddersfield isn't an inter-city route for speed.

 

[Crossover]

With specific reference to the Wakefield to Huddersfield 153, I'm surprised there were many Leicester supporters on that service now that it only serves Kirkgate. Sure, Kirkgate is reachable from Leicester with one change at Nottingham, but Huddersfield itself is only one change from Leicester (at Sheffield). Northern presumably made the same assessment when allocating stock to that service (and considering the platform length constraints mentioned upthread).

A touch off-piste, but I think at times a journey via Kirkgate represents a better option between Sheffield and Huddersfield than via Penistone. Not so long since a couple of other passengers on the shuttle from Huddersfield had a mild panic at hearing the train wasn’t to Sheffield. They said later that ‘the app’ had told them to use p5 at Huddersfield. I checked on RTT and worked out that it was much quicker to do this than wait another period of time for the Penistone service

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Seems a large contingent had sussed out that taking that Nottingham - Kirkgate, then the shuttle was best. However, the direct Leicester - Sheffield, then Sheffield - Huddersfield is not the quickest journey. That's Leicester - Chesterfield by East Midlands, Northern Chesterfield - Kirkgate, then Northern to Huddersfield - a good quarter of an hour better. Sheffield - Huddersfield isn't an inter-city route for speed.

My brother and father who travelled in from Shepley tell me there were plenty of Leicester supporters on their train, but then they did sell out their 3,000 seats so that's to be expected. There were a fair few with me on the stopper from Leeds too!

 

[Killingworth]

A touch off-piste, but I think at times a journey via Kirkgate represents a better option between Sheffield and Huddersfield than via Penistone. Not so long since a couple of other passengers on the shuttle from Huddersfield had a mild panic at hearing the train wasn’t to Sheffield. They said later that ‘the app’ had told them to use p5 at Huddersfield. I checked on RTT and worked out that it was much quicker to do this than wait another period of time for the Penistone service

Quite. It is normally quicker. That's why we were travelling from Sheffield to Huddersfield that way - not for football I might add!

 

[whhistle]

It was adequately explained to you in your own thread and there was ample time for you to digest it all before the thread was eventually removed.

Actually I got bored of reading it from a "fans were not to blame under any circumstances" point of view instead of a factual statement of events and came to the same conclusion as I had before the thread. No more off topic talk from me on this.


It's disappointing that many train companies can provide extra capacity when pushed.
For East Midlands, it happens every summer.
However, it means more staff on the train as I bet you'd have one driver, one conductor driver, a train manager and a conductor/guard.

 

[whhistle]

Are you really suggesting we close off ALL football matches for two years, causing millions of well-behaved and innocent fans to lose out, because of the behaviour of a tiny minority of idiots?

Yep.
If that's what it takes to stop the bad culture that football (note, no other sport) brings.
The amount of money the police have to spend to police such events when it could be directed elsewhere is startling.

 

[Gems]

Yep.
If that's what it takes to stop the bad culture that football (note, no other sport) brings.
The amount of money the police have to spend to police such events when it could be directed elsewhere is startling.

Stop being silly.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think this thread has gone as far as it can regarding the original incident. We're now well off-topic.

If there are any further updates relating to the original incident please feel free to bring them to the attention of the Forum Staff and we will give consideration to re-opening the thread.