Inaccurate Northern map

[Starmill]

Well, yes obviously. There's no limited service avoiding Manchester Airport. There is a limited service between Scunthorpe and Barnetby.

 

[TUC]

I was just looking at this map on the Northern Railway website:

https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108.../maps/2016-09/northern-map-september-2016.pdf

Which is linked to from here

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/network-map

I noticed Northallerton is in the wrong place (I know Northern don't serve Northallerton, but even so...)

Then I noticed that Kirkstall Forge and Low Moor are both in grey with notes to "refer below for the opening dates". There are no opening dates below (and both are open).

Then I saw that the grey lines are for "Other Operator's Services" (I am absolutely certain that there is more than one "other operator".

After that I saw that Ilkeston was spelled as "Ilkston" in the list (and this has also opened!). And then that Newton for Hyde is spelled as "Newton For Hyde" in the list (but correctly on the map, at least).

Does no-one care?

Are there any other errors?

The map is from September 2016. Let's see if it gets into 2018.

If it's from 2016, doesn't that explain that 'station now open' examples that you give?

 

[yorkie]

If it's from 2016, doesn't that explain that 'station now open' examples that you give?

It does, but what's their excuse for not updating it?

 

[MikeWh]

It does, but what's their excuse for not updating it?

Especially online.

 

[cuccir]

Frankly, Northern's map is a work of art compared to Transpennine's.

It might be the worst transport map I've ever seen (link can be found on this page)

• The attempt at geographical accuracy means that the core of the map consists of the big white patches of the Borders and the Pennines
• This squeezes Merseyside/Greter Manchester to be almost illegible
• The blue of the train lines replicates the blue of rivers, making them hard to see as lines
• Minor stations such as Chester-le-Street appear at the same size as Manchester Piccadilly or Leeds. It's hard to identify major cities
• Manchester is just a mess.
• Where names are shrunk, because of density of text, they're tiny (Irlam!)
• Airports are marked even where there's no rail service (Doncaster-Sheffield) or for that matter passenger flight service (Blackpool)
• Try and spot the East Coast Mainline south of York or the West Coast Mainline south of Wigan. It's very difficult, and there's no information as to where to change
• Indeed, no effort to show where you can interchange to any lines or between TPE services is made - surely one of the few remaining roles of these maps?
• The grey 'trains to' text is very small and difficult to read
• Edinburgh/Glasgow are pushed way up to the top of the page, away from view
• The Borders Railway is missing
• Their (admittedly 1 a day) service from Darlington to Middlesbrough is not indicated

Remember that this is most commonly seen as an a small poster on the wall of a train, where it's completely illegible.

Rant over but this annoys me so much as they are such simple design/cartography mistakes!!

 

[PR1Berske]

Just keeping with Northern, their versions of the Day Ranger maps, both Lancs and Cheshire, are slapdash and rudimentary at best. I'm thinking about using an LDR this Saturday, only I'll use the Network Rail pdf, even though they omit two valid routes! (Todmorden Curve; Wigan through Golbourne to Salford).

 

[jonesy3001]

its missing the ordsall chord.

 

[DarloRich]

there seems to be a lot of froth and wibble over a few minor issues. Does the diagram allow you to understand where Northern services run?

its missing the ordsall chord.

the map is from 2016. Did it exist then?

 

[jonesy3001]

started construction 2016.

 

[DarloRich]

started construction 2016.

and how many Northern trains have run on the chord so far?

 

[jonesy3001]

find out next month

 

[DarloRich]

find out next month

So thats none then? Might that be a reason why the chord doesn't show on an old map?

 

[roversfan2001]

its missing the ordsall chord.

Is the chord open for passenger services to travel over?

 

[jonesy3001]

dec 10th first train goes over.

 

[weastebusdepot]

These seem minor issues compared to the posters at Manchester Oxford Road where there are network maps that includes the Oldham Loop which closed in 2009! Admittedly these were created by a third party though.

 

[Bantamzen]

there seems to be a lot of froth and wibble over a few minor issues. Does the diagram allow you to understand where Northern services run?

Must be a slow news day......

Seriously though, I'm not sure what people want. Northern have a rather large, and in places complex network so to try and get every detail spot on is going to be at least a job and a half. What it does tell you is what stations are served by the network, and I'm sure most passengers having had sight of this would look for more detailed scheduling / ticketing information either online, or at stations. Perhaps eventually a more interactive version might be made available, maybe using Google maps as an base with the network details overlaid & a click and point functionality to show schedules in detail. It would still be a job and a half, and given that Arriva are requesting lots of pathing changes for May 2018 as we speak, they might be forgiven for not going for a major overhaul in the meantime.

 

[infobleep]

As a cartographer I can appreciate why they might not want to update the cartograms [maps], on every train if they are about to do whole sale changes but not doing so on their Web Site is inexcusable in my opinion. There again they regularly put up notices at stations about engineering work and have to keep changing those. If any of their trains have adverts inside, those need replacing from time to time.

It shouldn't take days to update the cartograms either. They aren't exactly that complicated. As for using similar colours. They should try avoid that. Google make a similar mistake by using grey for the general landscape and grey for railway lines. They are not the same shade of grey but still to close to easily idenfy the railway lines.

If they think running one or two services a day is not infrequent, then in their marginalia they need to explain what they mean by infrequent.

I wonder if Northern got some designers to produce these cartograms, rather than cartographers. Designers are not usually the best people to use when it comes to creating all forms of maps, including cartograms.

 

[DarloRich]

dec 10th first train goes over.

So how many had gone over the chord when the map was produced in 2016? That's right: none.

I suspect that is why the chord doesn't show. Surely it is better to manage expectations rather than show a route that didn't, at the time the map was produced, actually exist. It really isnt difficult this stuff.

 

[PR1Berske]

Yea, the Ordsall Curve being missing in a 2016 map isn't a mistake.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

The map has been updated since it was published to correct nearly all these errors. It just hasn't been put on the website yet. Long story

What I would say about the "infrequent services" part is that we could never work out what was meant by infrequent - whoever had got it designed originally never set out rules. I sat down and tried to figure it out, and the closest I got is that an "infrequent service" as far as the map is concerned is less than one Northern train each way every day - so Knottingley-Goole is not considered infrequent. But it's not consistent. When I was working in the team, we did discuss some changes, but updating these maps is costs time and money, and there are much greater, franchise-critical priorities than getting the minutiae of a map sorted at the moment

 

[Starmill]

an "infrequent service" as far as the map is concerned is less than one Northern train each way every day - so Knottingley-Goole is not considered infrequent.

Erm, that's an 'interesting' definition of "infrequent". Perhaps if you can't come up with basic criteria on it you ought not have it on the map. Just a thought.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Erm, that's an 'interesting' definition of "infrequent". Perhaps if you can't come up with basic criteria on it you ought not have it on the map. Just a thought.

Well, we were going to work through and change it but it was going to be too time-consuming to sort out considering it'd barely be noticed beyond rail enthusiasts. That's the realpolitik of the situation

 

[Starmill]

I know. I have already said that I think you are satisfied with something that has a large number of (very) minor problems. Unfortunately it isn't that this applies to the map that causes the problems, it's when it applies to other things.

 

[DanTrain]

Frankly, Northern's map is a work of art compared to Transpennine's.

It might be the worst transport map I've ever seen (link can be found on this page)

• The attempt at geographical accuracy means that the core of the map consists of the big white patches of the Borders and the Pennines
• ...
  
• Their (admittedly 1 a day) service from Darlington to Middlesbrough is not indicated

Remember that this is most commonly seen as an a small poster on the wall of a train, where it's completely illegible.

Rant over but this annoys me so much as they are such simple design/cartography mistakes!!

Ow, that map is truly abysmal! The scale on it is ridiculous, their network is not suited to a pseudo-accurate map, the central belt needs blowing up and Scotland shrinking to make it even readable on a small screen, never mind the blue colour.

Also, they lack any sense of limited service except for size of station, this map suggests that Rotherham (1-2 tpd) receives a sensible service but is a minor station, whereas a dashed line would allow major and minor stations to be differentiated. Also, 'Dore' is actually Dore & Totley (has been for many years now), and if you're going to include Stranraer, you kind of have to include Tweedbank too (neither would be much better for clarity though!). Almost makes Northern look admirable!

https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/travelling-with-us/our-network/

EMT's isn't much better either.

• It again doesn't differentiate between Edale's 2 trains a day and Alfreton's hourly service and Stockport's regional hub?
  
• It suggests that London trains call at Dronfield (they don't AFAIK)
• There is a ridiculous focus on penalty fare stations
• The limited service grey is almost illegible.
• There is no acknowledgement of other operator's services
• Dore and Totley again is not named correctly
• The inclarity in what on earth occurs near Oakham is dreadful
  
• A random blue line extends south from Chesterfield before stopping inexplicably

Look at Greater Anglia for a nicely done map (although I'm still not sure why it was nescessary to wrap the Sherringham branch round Norwich in that fasion):
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/travel-information/journey-planning/network-map

 

[johnr57]

I rather like the historical maps constructed out of tiles - i wonder how often they were updated?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Some of Northern's attempts at the diagrammatic map on each timetable are something to behold: the well-spaced, flowing depiction of Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham [N.B. links to a pdf document], the addition of Todmorden Curve services to the Blackpool South-Colne booklet (nice to know Manchester Victoria is an unstaffed halt too, would it kill someone to spend five minutes looking up station amenities and adding the relevant symbology?), and the Huddersfield-Penistone-Sheffield guide, which since they copied straight from the old West Yorkshire Metro book still omits the two South Yorkshire stations on the branch at Silkstone Common and Dodworth...

I will concede that by and large maps are one of the less important provisions in the service offered to customers, and so long as all of the salient information to a layman is displayed correctly then that will suffice if the company has more pressing matters; but some of the links I have given above just look as if Northern are willing to pass off anything so long as it gets done.

 

[xotGD]

Some of Northern's attempts at the diagrammatic map on each timetable are something to behold: the well-spaced, flowing depiction of Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham [N.B. links to a pdf document], the addition of Todmorden Curve services to the Blackpool South-Colne booklet (nice to know Manchester Victoria is an unstaffed halt too, would it kill someone to spend five minutes looking up station amenities and adding the relevant symbology?), and the Huddersfield-Penistone-Sheffield guide, which since they copied straight from the old West Yorkshire Metro book still omits the two South Yorkshire stations on the branch at Silkstone Common and Dodworth...

I will concede that by and large maps are one of the less important provisions in the service offered to customers, and so long as all of the salient information to a layman is displayed correctly then that will suffice if the company has more pressing matters; but some of the links I have given above just look as if Northern are willing to pass off anything so long as it gets done.

I'm more concerned that the Colne timetable makes working out connections to Manchester as difficult as possible.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm more concerned that the Colne timetable makes working out connections to Manchester as difficult as possible.

I'm certain they usually show them at Blackburn for the services via Bolton, but given the fact that the current Colne timetable spans the primary timetable change, when services via Bolton are doubled to half-hourly off-peak, I can understand why they have been omitted. Given both connections at Rose Grove between Todmorden and Colne services are in excess of 55 minutes, I can see why they are absent!

 

[DanTrain]

http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/mapwatch_naming.html
I've just found this for those that want a laugh (or a cry) at some innacurate cartography!

 

[TMLB UK]

I noticed Northallerton is in the wrong place

Is it?? Look ok to me.