Inaccurate Northern map

[alistairlees]

I was just looking at this map on the Northern Railway website:

https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108.../maps/2016-09/northern-map-september-2016.pdf

Which is linked to from here

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/network-map

I noticed Northallerton is in the wrong place (I know Northern don't serve Northallerton, but even so...)

Then I noticed that Kirkstall Forge and Low Moor are both in grey with notes to "refer below for the opening dates". There are no opening dates below (and both are open).

Then I saw that the grey lines are for "Other Operator's Services" (I am absolutely certain that there is more than one "other operator".

After that I saw that Ilkeston was spelled as "Ilkston" in the list (and this has also opened!). And then that Newton for Hyde is spelled as "Newton For Hyde" in the list (but correctly on the map, at least).

Does no-one care?

Are there any other errors?

The map is from September 2016. Let's see if it gets into 2018.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Everyone knows it is "Ilson", where the k and the t came from heaven knows.

 

[DanTrain]

Hazel Grove - Chinley is a solid line not a dashed infrequent one despite being either one or two trains per day. Same through Pontefract Baghill. Also, Hunt's Cross is in the wrong place, it shouldn't be on teh Runcorn line. Just sheer laziness by Northern! It does show the sheer extent of the network, they serve virtually every station in the North of England!

 

[Starmill]

There's a limited service between Scunthorpe and Batnetby. Knottingley to Goole should be limited service. It might be nice if they showed the connection from Worksop to Nottingham in grey. Wigan North Western to Newton-le-Willows should be limited service. Surely Ellesmere Port to Warrington Bank Quay ought to be shown as limited service. I would put avoiding Manchester Airport as no service because they don't have anything doing this in WTT. Minor points really.

 

[DanTrain]

There's a limited service between Scunthorpe and Batnetby. Knottingley to Goole should be limited service. It might be nice if they showed the connection from Worksop to Nottingham in grey. Low Moor should be shown as open. Minor points really.

And acknowledged the existance of Matlock! Not that minor really for a network map to help the public. They just want to claim a better service than they have

 

[alistairlees]

Hazel Grove - Chinley is a solid line not a dashed infrequent one despite being either one or two trains per day. Same through Pontefract Baghill. Also, Hunt's Cross is in the wrong place, it shouldn't be on teh Runcorn line. Just sheer laziness by Northern! It does show the sheer extent of the network, they serve virtually every station in the North of England!

You're right, just one Northern train each way a day between Stockport and Chinley. Should be a dashed line. Pontefract Baghill has two trains a day, should also be dashed line. As should Knottingley to Goole (1 or 2 trains a day) and Selby to Doncaster (just two Northern trains each way a day - plus 7 Hull Trains and 2 VTEC ones, of course) should also be a dashed line.

And putting Hunts Cross in the wrong place...

 

[alistairlees]

There's a limited service between Scunthorpe and Batnetby. Knottingley to Goole should be limited service. It might be nice if they showed the connection from Worksop to Nottingham in grey. Wigan North Western to Newton-le-Willows should be limited service. Surely Ellesmere Port to Warrington Bank Quay ought to be shown as limited service. I would put avoiding Manchester Airport as no service because they don't have anything doing this in WTT. Minor points really.

Thanks. I think they're all valid points. The map should be accurate, just like a timetable, which it is a geographic representation of. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[alistairlees]

I just realised they have renamed "Barnsley" to "Barnsley Interchange" on the map.

It's Barnsley on the website, but "Barnsley Interchange" on the PDF timetable.

Sigh.

 

[DanTrain]

Also the map at Shipley doesn't appear to show Bradford FS - Leeds as a route when it is Oh, and Carnforth is in the wrong place! How hard can it be...

 

[Cantab26]

I rather like the fact that the key only refers to 'infrequent services' when it means 'infrequent Northern services'.

 

[Moonshot]

Thanks. I think they're all valid points. The map should be accurate, just like a timetable, which it is a geographic representation of. Otherwise, what's the point?

How many ticket sales have been lost because of some minor issues on a 2016 map ?

 

[yorkie]

Northern are a very unprofessionally run train company in various aspects, so this is of no surprise.

 

[alistairlees]

How many ticket sales have been lost because of some minor issues on a 2016 map ?

I don't think that matters. It should be a matter of pride that things like this are absolutely right.

 

[Moonshot]

Northern are a very unprofessionally run train company in various aspects, so this is of no surprise.

What about the frontline staff? Are they unprofessional? Do you think the guards would be more in tune with the network than a map with some very minor errors on it ?

 

[Starmill]

Are they unprofessional?

Which front line staff? Ticket offices? Guards? Loss Prevention Officers? Carlisle Security ticket examiners? The Customer Experience Centre?

I have had exceptionally positive experiences with some of those. With others I have had multiple experiences that were far worse than 'unporfessional'.

The errors in this map are disappointing and show a lack of attention to detail presumably on the part of the design department. This in itself does not bother me. However, it suggests a lack of focus on customer service - which is definitely something the company suffers from big time as a result of some of the groups of staff above that I have mentioned.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't think that matters. It should be a matter of pride that things like this are absolutely right.

Im sorry but it does.....so I ll ask again.....how many ticket sales have been lost because of some very minor errors on a map? A ticket sale lost means the revenue not gained will have to be covered by a subsidy payment

 

[Moonshot]

Which front line staff? Ticket offices? Guards? Loss Prevention Officers? Carlisle Security ticket examiners? The Customer Experience Centre?

I have had exceptionally positive experiences with some of those. With others I have had multiple experiences that were far worse than 'unporfessional'.

The errors in this map are disappointing and show a lack of attention to detail presumably on the part of the design department. This in itself does not bother me. However, it suggests a lack of focus on customer service - which is definitely something the company suffers from big time as a result of some of the groups of staff above that I have mentioned.

Which is no worse than the retail sector on the high street.

 

[Starmill]

Nonsense. There is zero chance of Sainsbury's treating people in the way Northern do.

 

[yorkie]

What about the frontline staff? ..

I am talking about how the company is run. I am not going to go off-topic regarding frontline staff.

Nonsense. There is zero chance of Sainsbury's treating people in the way Northern do.

Very true.

 

[Moonshot]

Nonsense. There is zero chance of Sainsbury's treating people in the way Northern do.

Oh right ......and Sainsburys are the only ones on the high street are they? In my experience some of these discount retailers could do with some customer service training.

 

[alistairlees]

Im sorry but it does.....so I ll ask again.....how many ticket sales have been lost because of some very minor errors on a map? A ticket sale lost means the revenue not gained will have to be covered by a subsidy payment

So, to answer your question, none. Selling tickets does not mean that you should have a map with many mistakes in it (for over a year) though. The two are unrelated; it's perfectly possible to sell tickets AND have a completely accurate map.

 

[Moonshot]

I am talking about how the company is run. I am not going to go off-topic regarding frontline staff.


Very true.

You would have to wonder just how Arriva managed to win the franchise......but of course its your opinion only. And I ve no doubt that everyone has an opinion on every other franchise operator as well but hey ho thats life.

 

[Moonshot]

So, to answer your question, none. Selling tickets does not mean that you should have a map with many mistakes in it (for over a year) though. The two are unrelated; it's perfectly possible to sell tickets AND have a completely accurate map.

So could you quantify just how accurate this 2016 map is today?? 90% ?? 95% ?? 99.95 % ?? Which figure looks best ?

 

[Starmill]

Could I please ask that you use ellipsis correctly and do not substitute spaces with full stops. This makes your contributions very difficult to read for users of assistive technology and is slows down the reading of your sentences.

As to your point, you talk about market competition in almost every thread, and you do not seem to understand that it is not present in the railway industry as it is a natural monopoly (except in a small way and even that causes big problems). I am happy to explain this (again) for you, if you wish to create a new thread to discuss it.

 

[alistairlees]

So could you quantify just how accurate this 2016 map is today?? 90% ?? 95% ?? 99.95 % ?? Which figure looks best ?

No, why would I? The point is there are lots of inaccuracies, and this does not present a good image (if there are two things I would expect an operator to know, they would be where their stations are, and how to spell the names of them). It's not as if either of these change much. Obviously you do not expect them to know these things, which seems a bit strange; but everyone is entitled to their opinions.

As for the inaccuracies, there are a few more:
- Carnforth is shown on the WCML as well as the lines to Barrow / Skipton
- the service between Carnforth (or the junction anyway) and Oxenholme should be shown as being infrequent

The first one is misleading - you could believe there are services from Carnforth to Kendal. That's why it's important to get things right.

 

[DanTrain]

So could you quantify just how accurate this 2016 map is today?? 90% ?? 95% ?? 99.95 % ?? Which figure looks best ?

I'd guess at maybe 95% ish. I mean as long as 95% of trains don't catch fire, then we're ok. As long as 95% of people get to their destination, sod the other 5%. A Japanese company recently appologised for a train being 20 seconds early, imagine the appologies for this map, or for that reason the service Northern run (not all their fault, I know).

 

[Moonshot]

Could I please ask that you use ellipsis correctly and do not substitute spaces with full stops. This makes your contributions very difficult to read for users of assistive technology and is slows down the reading of your sentences.

As to your point, you talk about market competition in almost every thread, and you do not seem to understand that it is not present in the railway industry as it is a natural monopoly (except in a small way and even that causes big problems). I am happy to explain this (again) for you, if you wish to create a new thread to discuss it.

Could I please ask that you use ellipsis correctly and do not substitute spaces with full stops. This makes your contributions very difficult to read for users of assistive technology and is slows down the reading of your sentences.

As to your point, you talk about market competition in almost every thread, and you do not seem to understand that it is not present in the railway industry as it is a natural monopoly (except in a small way and even that causes big problems). I am happy to explain this (again) for you, if you wish to create a new thread to discuss it.

Not sure what market competition has to do with this thread......but I m well aware that competition exists for the market instead of in the market

 

[Moonshot]

I'd guess at maybe 95% ish. I mean as long as 95% of trains don't catch fire, then we're ok. As long as 95% of people get to their destination, sod the other 5%. A Japanese company recently appologised for a train being 20 seconds early, imagine the appologies for this map, or for that reason the service Northern run (not all their fault, I know).

I think if that map had a 5% error rate, there would be some questions asked. Is this the map that is replicated on station platforms?

 

[185143]

I reported problems with the new network map pretty much as soon as it was launched...

 

[Andyh82]

Half the errors pointed out in this thread's first post aren't even proper errors. Such as capitalising For in 'Newton for Hyde' or referring to Barnsley as Barnsley Interchange. The fact Low Moor and Kirkstall Forge aren't errors if it's a map dated last year.

Regarded the dotted line for infrequent services, if you assume that the definition of infrequent means less than one train per day (such as those that only run one day a week), is it still "wrong"?