Impressive Pendolino run

[causton]

From observation and experience, the xx40 is probably late arriving in Wilmslow 19 times out of 20, and this xx43 late running seems the predominant cause. I think that the running times allowed for a clear path from Wolverhampton through Stafford, crossing to the Down Fast typically at the former Stafford Number 5 crossover, are simply unrealistic and therefore too short. This is not something recent, such as caused by a significant but temporary speed restriction. The delay is normally up to 5 minutes, usually mainly recovered before its final destination, but from my perspective this train is "almost always late".

Probably a little off-topic but nonetheless interesting. For anyone wanting to time a good start-stop Euston-Crewe run, this service almost certainly won't be a good candidate.

Sounds like the same Euston - Leighton Buzzard on a xx13 off Euston. Once was very very lucky and got it in 28 minutes but never any faster, especially with the crossing at Ledburn... annoyingly got on one heading north that had just done it in 26 and a half!

In reality you will be 2 or 3 late by Wembley Central for no discernible reason, and then that only gets picked back up if you have a 110mph unit, but none of that matters as we crawl through the approach control at Ledburn for a late running VT.

Going south on a xx53 off Leighton Buzzard non-stop to Euston no chance of a fast run, one time I did it SL all the way (Tring stopper was held to let us past) and we were minute perfect for the entire trip! Once again, held a few minutes for a late running VT, if we are 1 or 2 late we seem to pick it up around the Willesden area but no chance of getting anywhere below the 34 minutes given when I've done it as the xx24 off Euston to MKC will always leave before we are allowed in!

I know it's not quite the VT speeds, but I like to dream Leighton Buzzard to Watford and vice versa is a good one to get, don't think I've got below 16 minutes though...

 

[dk1]

Good to see some old school attitudes survive. Had a good run up to Liverpool St in the middle of the morning peak yesterday. Not the fastest run obviously at that time of day but we went fast where needed and slower where appropriate to hit the key junctions on time and ran unchecked straight into Liverpool Street bang on time.

I obviously know some rough spots like Stratford/Bow Jcn on the UP so may be a tad below but we have a timetable for a reason. No point in having a bit of slack if you're scared to take advantage of it. Proudest moment was leaving Ipswich at 08:28 (8L) on the 'Anglian' after GSMR problems and arriving Liverpool Street at 09:21 (3E) on public times & even waited outside for the 09:18 to vacate plat 13. Just need the right Controller on duty along with pro-active signallers. I was buzzing for the rest of the day.

 

[Ianno87]

0700s from both Manchester & Liverpool. Manchester can do it easily under 2hrs. Liverpool could too as it is flighted right behind Manchester. Again as long as LM pathed in front is out of way which sadly tends not to be the case.

A few years back I had a blistering run on the 0700 off Manchester as the LM was not in the way at Colwich (it was delayed at Stafford). I reckoned I was on course for 1hr 57 mins (or thereabouts) - killed by a TSR at Wembley!
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Sounds like the same Euston - Leighton Buzzard on a xx13 off Euston. Once was very very lucky and got it in 28 minutes but never any faster, especially with the crossing at Ledburn... annoyingly got on one heading north that had just done it in 26 and a half!

In reality you will be 2 or 3 late by Wembley Central for no discernible reason, and then that only gets picked back up if you have a 110mph unit, but none of that matters as we crawl through the approach control at Ledburn for a late running VT.

Going south on a xx53 off Leighton Buzzard non-stop to Euston no chance of a fast run, one time I did it SL all the way (Tring stopper was held to let us past) and we were minute perfect for the entire trip! Once again, held a few minutes for a late running VT, if we are 1 or 2 late we seem to pick it up around the Willesden area but no chance of getting anywhere below the 34 minutes given when I've done it as the xx24 off Euston to MKC will always leave before we are allowed in!

I know it's not quite the VT speeds, but I like to dream Leighton Buzzard to Watford and vice versa is a good one to get, don't think I've got below 16 minutes though...

On the odd occasions the xx13 is not put over at Ledburn (for whatever reason), the resulting "hot" braking into Leighton Buzzard can be very exciting!

 

[dk1]

A few years back I had a blistering run on the 0700 off Manchester as the LM was not in the way at Colwich (it was delayed at Stafford). I reckoned I was on course for 1hr 57 mins (or thereabouts) - killed by a TSR at Wembley!
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On the odd occasions the xx13 is not put over at Ledburn (for whatever reason), the resulting "hot" braking into Leighton Buzzard can be very exciting!

When the VHF timetable began back in 2008 the 07:00 Manchester was timed to arrive at 08:58 giving a headline timing of 1h58. This regularly arrived as early as 08:55 with the 'fast business' trains running in flight with the Liverpool in at 09:01 & Glasgow at 09:04.

 

[6Gman]

Sounds like its too tight across Doxey to me. We will rue the day of not sorting that as part of Stafford and Norton Bridge.

Is there any practical reasons why Doxey couldn't have had higher speed crossovers?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there any practical reasons why Doxey couldn't have had higher speed crossovers?

Money probably.
And it was completely renewed early on in WCRM c 2002, as was all the Stafford S&C, in a scheme designed by Railtrack.
"We've got the possessions so we might as well do it", I remember was the quote from the Bechtel project director, after the SRA had cancelled the remodelling at Stafford as not delivering sufficient enhancements.
So the money went on replacing like-for-like.

Something similar happened at Stoke (completely renewing 1960s layouts), but was corrected later by the platform alterations and removal of the through line.
Many of the early WCRM upgrades don't bear examination.
Don't mention Stockport, Ledburn...

 

[Polarbear]

Sometime last year, I was on the 07:00 ex Liverpool, which left Runcorn 17 late due to a problem before departure. I assumed it would have lost its path, but not a bit of it! There followed an absolute blistering run down to Euston, with some very nifty braking at places like Crewe & Stafford.

 

[plastictaffy]

There's a cracker on the up from Coventry in the mid afternoon - we use it as a positioning train to Euston for the next working. If you miss LM's 1521, (booked on it) the next one through 1 is this Virgin train. Hammers up to Watford - it's a Voyager that gets shown absolutely no mercy.
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Don't mention Stockport, Ledburn...

I gather Ledburn is a fairly new junction, like Bourne End?? What's wrong with it??
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Sounds like the same Euston - Leighton Buzzard on a xx13 off Euston. Once was very very lucky and got it in 28 minutes but never any faster, especially with the crossing at Ledburn... annoyingly got on one heading north that had just done it in 26 and a half!

The 33 minute booking Euston to MKC on the U trains is another good one. Good driver and a good unit makes it just about spot on. Anything less than 100% from either and you'll miss booked time.

 

[Bald Rick]

Many of the early WCRM upgrades don't bear examination.
Don't mention Stockport, Ledburn...

The tale of Stockport / South Manchester will get a few pages in the WCRM chapter of my book 'A Cunning Plan'.
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I gather Ledburn is a fairly new junction, like Bourne End?? What's wrong with it??

It was the first of the main line junctions to be renewed. It was done at a time (2003?) when 140mph was still officially on the agenda (even though all the sensible people knew it wouldn't happen). 140mph requires continuity of rail, ie no gaps in the rail as you get in points. Swing nose crossings were thus employed, and aside from being very expensive, were singularly unreliable*. They were taken out a few years later at great expense.

It is one of the great mysteries of the rail world how swing nose crossings, which work perfectly well on high speed lines all over the world (and in the UK), wouldn't work on the WCML.

 

[plastictaffy]

The tale of Stockport / South Manchester will get a few pages in the WCRM chapter of my book 'A Cunning Plan'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It was the first of the main line junctions to be renewed. It was done at a time (2003?) when 140mph was still officially on the agenda (even though all the sensible people knew it wouldn't happen). 140mph requires continuity of rail, ie no gaps in the rail as you get in points. Swing nose crossings were thus employed, and aside from being very expensive, were singularly unreliable*. They were taken out a few years later at great expense.

It is one of the great mysteries of the rail world how swing nose crossings, which work perfectly well on high speed lines all over the world (and in the UK), wouldn't work on the WCML.

Oh, thanks for that. Pretty interesting!! Hanslope is the junction that gets me, it feels terrible at speed!!!

 

[driver_m]

I'm still waiting to cross the River Tame bridge (112m32c) within the hour from Euston (usually on the xx40).
I'm sure it happens, as usually you get beyond Tamworth.
Time was when you were lucky to clear Rugby in the same time.

It definitely can with a clear run.

 

[The Planner]

Is there any practical reasons why Doxey couldn't have had higher speed crossovers?

As with lots of railway things, there is a story with this one but I shan't put it on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is one of the great mysteries of the rail world how swing nose crossings, which work perfectly well on high speed lines all over the world (and in the UK), wouldn't work on the WCML.

Another one where you hear lots of stories about, mainly being that we won't accept a standard design and like to tinker so its ours! They could well be making a return if what I have been told is correct but not at Ledburn.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They could well be making a return if what I have been told is correct but not at Ledburn.

Presumably they would have to figure on the ECML and GWML to achieve 140mph then?
Say at Maidenhead East, Didcot East and the Wantage loops.

 

[The Planner]

Its on the WCML.

 

[Phil.]

Six years ago this week, Traveled from Penrith to Euston and was a few minutes late leaving Warringon. Arrived in Euston 86min later which I also reckoned was a 114mph average.

Saw the driver emerging at Euston and told him it was my fastest run on the route. He said it was his too.

38 years ago the 19.20 Paddington to Taunton HST (first stop Chippenham) had an average start-to-stop time of 112 mph. We haven't come very far in that time given what's been spent on track, trains and signalling.

 

[notadriver]

Trains are more frequent than 30 years ago ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dk1]

Trains are more frequent than 30 years ago ?

Most definatley are & annoys me when we only get quotes that the service is worse. You cannot always have speed & frequency & many stations enroute are now to important to miss out with usage way beyond that ever dreamed of when HSTs for example where introduced back in the 1970s. It's very easy for people to ignore this when trying to talk today's railways down.

 

[Bald Rick]

38 years ago the 19.20 Paddington to Taunton HST (first stop Chippenham) had an average start-to-stop time of 112 mph. We haven't come very far in that time given what's been spent on track, trains and signalling.

Except that 38 years ago that was the one and only train that achieved that sort of average speed. And now, we have similar on many, many more routes, with approximately twice as many trains on the Inter City network.

 

[cle]

Excellent points -

yes there were some quirky timings, stopping patterns and anomalies many years ago, which are fun when wistfully poring over old timetables.... but boring, predictable clockface patterns and frequencies of today are much better for the user.

 

[GNER 91128]

Now I may not be remembering rightly*, but I believe I've done KGX to PB0 in 39/40 minutes a few years ago, I think it was a 20:00 departure on a Saturday evening, after attending The Emirates.

*A fairly decent amount of beer had probably been consumed by then.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Excellent points -

yes there were some quirky timings, stopping patterns and anomalies many years ago, which are fun when wistfully poring over old timetables.... but boring, predictable clockface patterns and frequencies of today are much better for the user.

Indeed, there used to be a CrossCountry train (until the December 2008 recast I think) on summer Saturdays that was Bristol Temple Meads and Plymouth only between Birmingham and Newquay and way back when some of the stopping patterns you had on the Great Western and West Coast were fantastic. Terrific fun for us enthusiasts, but I agree clockface timetables are (alas :P) for the better!

 

[HowardGWR]

38 years ago the 19.20 Paddington to Taunton HST (first stop Chippenham) had an average start-to-stop time of 112 mph. We haven't come very far in that time given what's been spent on track, trains and signalling.

When the non-stop services from Bristol Parkway to Pad start, I reckon some pax will be people bashing it, just to enjoy the nostalgia of whizzing through Reading.

 

[cambsy]

In Intercity CrossCountry days, before privatisation, there were some interesting calling patterns on summer Saturdays.

I think if memory serves me right, there were Peak hauled Birmingham-Taunton non-stop, and other interesting call patterns. I did an HST Leeds to Newquay overnight which called:

• Doncaster
• Sheffield
• Derby
• Birmingham
• Bristol Temple Meads
• Plymouth
• Par
• Newquay

then back to Birmingham with a similar call pattern, some of the overnighters had long stops at Bristol Temple Mead for about an hour.

Nowadays its more about being clock face and frequent on CrossCountry, better for customers but not nearly so interesting.

 

[bnm]

When the non-stop services from Bristol Parkway to Pad start, I reckon some pax will be people bashing it, just to enjoy the nostalgia of whizzing through Reading.

Whizzing through Reading is not nostalgia. Happens every weekday now.

 

[Groningen]

The fastest Coventry - London Euston i can see is at 7.52 and takes 58 minutes. With the car it is double in traveltime.

 

[Phil.]

When the non-stop services from Bristol Parkway to Pad start, I reckon some pax will be people bashing it, just to enjoy the nostalgia of whizzing through Reading.

Hmmm, I'll have to dig out my old timetables and see what the 15 minutes past the odd hour Paddington to Swanseas which were non-stop to Parkway used to do in 1978.

 

[HowardGWR]

Whizzing through Reading is not nostalgia. Happens every weekday now.

I didn't know that, thanks BNM. Any particular service could you mention, or is it from all HST routes?

 

[bnm]

I didn't know that, thanks BNM. Any particular service could you mention, or is it from all HST routes?

0558 Swansea to London Paddington. Non-stop from Swindon.
1742 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa. Non-stop to Didcot Parkway.

 

[HowardGWR]

0558 Swansea to London Paddington. Non-stop from Swindon.
1742 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa. Non-stop to Didcot Parkway.

Thanks;I suddenly realised we are duplicating this on two threads. I suggest ending on this one, as I am unaware that GWR has ordered pendolinos!!

(Although tilt in Devon and Cornwall would perhaps be a good idea).

 

[nuneatonmark]

Just think what it could have been like had 140mph operation (with in-cab signalling) on the WCML happened along with 4 tracking all the way from Rugby to Stafford, a Stafford bypass, grade separation for Colwich (or complete new re-alignment), rebuilt Crewe to allow 125mph through the station area. Maybe we wouldn't need HS2? Massively cheaper too. Even with 125mph operation, removal of the Stafford, Crewe and Colwich constraints must have a significant impact?