Immediate help required please

[imsosvrwwed]

Have you told us when you were stopped and questioned about this? When was it roughly? Eg this week, last 7 days, 3 weeks ago etc

They have up to 6 months to commence court action so this creates a deadline for them to act within. But it could be some time within that period that the write or e mail you.
Keep an eye on hard copy post and spam e mail too

I was stopped on Friday last week so it's only been 5 days now I have been monitoring my emails constantly and being as patient as I can while I wait for the letter tho I'm extremely worried they won't offer a settlement

 

[WesternLancer]

I was stopped on Friday last week so it's only been 5 days now I have been monitoring my emails constantly and being as patient as I can while I wait for the letter tho I'm extremely worried they won't offer a settlement

I wouldn't expect to hear for 4 to 8 weeks at least. It could easily be longer - nothing will have happened at their end in 5 days

Which train company stopped you?

You can work out the speed of response from other threads here involving that company.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

To pick up from a few points in this thread:

3. im autistic and train travel does make me anxious and nervous

If you have been diagnosed as autistic, then it would be worth making sure that you have hold of a copy of that information. It might be important to be able to show that to the railway as a reason why you didn't understand what the rules were.

i use the season ticket for 5 days a week for work and thats all i estimate 90 weeks as i only bought a railcard in 2024 and began using it in may of the same year so taking into consideration my annual time off of 7 weeks a year i estimate out of the 104 weeks 90 of them i had bought a season ticket for.

On this point, you may be able to do some research:
- have a look at your work leave records. What leave have you actually taken over the time? That might help you make a more accurate estimate.
- back in the first post, you told us that you bought the ticket on a smart card. That probably means that you have some sort of account. Have a look to see if you can access this online: it may tell you precisely when you bought season tickets and so how many of them there are.
- It also seems to me that the railway will be able to access this information. So it might be that there will be no disagreement between you and the railway over the number of season tickets.

I was stopped on Friday last week so it's only been 5 days now I have been monitoring my emails constantly and being as patient as I can while I wait for the letter tho I'm extremely worried they won't offer a settlement

On this, you might want to know that the first letter from the railway may be headed something like 'Notice of intention to prosecute'. That will read like they've made up their mind to take you to court - but don't panic! Although the wording is meant to be a bit alarming, that's so people take it seriously: a lot of the time, we find that cases are ultimately settled out of court even though the first letter said something like that. When you get the letter, it would be good if you can share it with us (don't forget to redact your personal details so that the whole internet doesn't get to know about you having this problem) and we'll talk you through what the letter really means.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

To pick up from a few points in this thread:


If you have been diagnosed as autistic, then it would be worth making sure that you have hold of a copy of that information. It might be important to be able to show that to the railway as a reason why you didn't understand what the rules were.


On this point, you may be able to do some research:
- have a look at your work leave records. What leave have you actually taken over the time? That might help you make a more accurate estimate.
- back in the first post, you told us that you bought the ticket on a smart card. That probably means that you have some sort of account. Have a look to see if you can access this online: it may tell you precisely when you bought season tickets and so how many of them there are.
- It also seems to me that the railway will be able to access this information. So it might be that there will be no disagreement between you and the railway over the number of season tickets.


On this, you might want to know that the first letter from the railway may be headed something like 'Notice of intention to prosecute'. That will read like they've made up their mind to take you to court - but don't panic! Although the wording is meant to be a bit alarming, that's so people take it seriously: a lot of the time, we find that cases are ultimately settled out of court even though the first letter said something like that. When you get the letter, it would be good if you can share it with us (don't forget to redact your personal details so that the whole internet doesn't get to know about you having this problem) and we'll talk you through what the letter really means.

From what I have seen c2c have a tendency to send out letters after 2 weeks I have also seen the first letter usually appears to be an instant settlement offer but with my case being so high value I'm worried they may skip all the previous options and move straight to court. I'm not familiar with exactly what could happen as I haven't ever had this issue raised before. I saw online that a couple years ago they caught some people especially as me person who actively used the same kinda thing as me and it was settled out of court for £3100 but I'm terrified I may not be so fortunate

 

[Fawkes Cat]

From what I have seen c2c have a tendency to send out letters after 2 weeks I have also seen the first letter usually appears to be an instant settlement offer but with my case being so high value I'm worried they may skip all the previous options and move straight to court. I'm not familiar with exactly what could happen as I haven't ever had this issue raised before. I saw online that a couple years ago they caught some people especially as me person who actively used the same kinda thing as me and it was settled out of court for £3100 but I'm terrified I may not be so fortunate

Realistically, even if the railway are dead set on prosecuting this, it's unlikely (not impossible, but unlikely) that the first you will hear will be a summons to court. The facts of your case are unusual, so the magistrates/judge who hear the case would want everything fully explained to them. In turn, that means that the railway's prosecutor will need to fully understand the facts - and most probably that would mean they would want to get more information from you. (You're not obliged to give them more information if they ask, but let's deal with that if it happens).

So if the railway want more information from you, that will be what their first letter is about. And I think my advice above, of asking us to comment on that letter, still holds good even if it's a rather different letter from what I have suggested.

 

[Haywain]

The facts of your case are unusual, so the magistrates/judge who hear the case would want everything fully explained to them.

The magistrates only need to hear and understand the detail of the offence that is being prosecuted - that there may be hundreds of identical offences is nor relevant and do not affect the outcome of a prosecution.

most probably that would mean they would want to get more information from you.

The railway have all the information they need - that the OP was not paying the correct fares. The only further thing they will want is the money that has not been paid, unless they believe that an example should be made for the benefit of discouraging others.

So if the railway want more information from you, that will be what their first letter is about.

As ever, when they send a letter they will be looking to engage with the OP for the purposes of reaching what they regard as a satisfactory outcome.

 

[Gonzoiku]

The magistrates only need to hear and understand the detail of the offence that is being prosecuted - that there may be hundreds of identical offences is nor relevant and do not affect the outcome of a prosecution.

The railway have all the information they need - that the OP was not paying the correct fares. The only further thing they will want is the money that has not been paid, unless they believe that an example should be made for the benefit of discouraging others.

As ever, when they send a letter they will be looking to engage with the OP for the purposes of reaching what they regard as a satisfactory outcome.

Is it not the case that OP has been caught only once? While it will most likely be clear that OP has bought ~90 season tickets with a 16-17 saver discount, where is the evidence that OP used those tickets personally? If we are speaking of possible prosecution, I am in some doubt as to there being evidence for that for anything other than one journey.

In other words, isn't OP's best move to keep quiet?

GZ

 

[Haywain]

Is it not the case that OP has been caught only once?

The OP has only been caught once, and that is all that is likely to be prosecuted. However, using (non-tranferrable) season tickets held on a smartcard don't leave too much doubt about who has been using those. As always, we would advise that the OP's response should address what is asked of them when they receive a letter, but keeping quiet isn't really a viable option when the accusation is a strict liability offence and you want to reach a settlement in lieu of prosecution.

 

[WesternLancer]

From what I have seen c2c have a tendency to send out letters after 2 weeks I have also seen the first letter usually appears to be an instant settlement offer

Well 5 days is not 2 weeks, it's not even one week - but can you point us to where you have seen this info?

Or have you had letters from them before yourself about incorrect tickets? (ie do you have a track record of doing this)

C2C do not feature very often on this forum, so please share where you are getting that info from so we can potentially have a look at it too.

but with my case being so high value I'm worried they may skip all the previous options and move straight to court.

In my view of watching this forum long term, It's not generally the volume of the fares owed that influence the decision on whether prosecution follows or not - it's potentially the motivation deliberate or otherwise to not pay the correct fare.

Now you claim this was all a mistake about selecting the wrong railcard - so if that is the case you are not evading deliberately and you will need to convince them of that
BUT
if you actually have been evading deliberately by selecting the 16-17 Saver discount that might put things in a different light and you might have to work harder to persuade them not to prosecute.

It would help if you could be honest about it here at least - as then people can give the best advice to you.

Having said that - people who do deliberately evade when caught often still achieve out of court settlements.

As mentioned above you have paid the wrong fare (intentionally or unintentionally) for a long period and thus the sum of money they may want from you to settle out of court is going to be quite large potentially.

So at this stage instead of worrying if they will take you to court or not, I'd focus your thinking on how you can save up or borrow from trusted family or friends (definitely not dodgy money lenders) the kind of money this might involve, as mentioned up thread. This is probably an important step you cane take now.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

Well 5 days is not 2 weeks, it's not even one week - but can you point us to where you have seen this info?

Or have you had letters from them before yourself about incorrect tickets? (ie do you have a track record of doing this)

C2C do not feature very often on this forum, so please share where you are getting that info from so we can potentially have a look at it too.


In my view of watching this forum long term, It's not generally the volume of the fares owed that influence the decision on whether prosecution follows or not - it's potentially the motivation deliberate or otherwise to not pay the correct fare.

Now you claim this was all a mistake about selecting the wrong railcard - so if that is the case you are not evading deliberately and you will need to convince them of that
BUT
if you actually have been evading deliberately by selecting the 16-17 Saver discount that might put things in a different light and you might have to work harder to persuade them not to prosecute.

It would help if you could be honest about it here at least - as then people can give the best advice to you.

Having said that - people who do deliberately evade when caught often still achieve out of court settlements.

As mentioned above you have paid the wrong fare (intentionally or unintentionally) for a long period and thus the sum of money they may want from you to settle out of court is going to be quite large potentially.

So at this stage instead of worrying if they will take you to court or not, I'd focus your thinking on how you can save up or borrow from trusted family or friends (definitely not dodgy money lenders) the kind of money this might involve, as mentioned up thread. This is probably an important step you cane take now.

Even tho it may seem that what I have done was done on purpose and intentionally I guarantee you it wasn't that's the honest truth tho proving that would be impossible.

I'm aware the sum paid back could be huge but I have spoken to many people around me and they have been happy to help pay it.

I'm just worried about them skilling over the settlement and lead straight to prosecution as was put "to make an example of me" I'm willing to pay the charges for my invalid tickets should they issue the settlement but my overarching fear is they won't offer it

 

[WesternLancer]

Even tho it may seem that what I have done was done on purpose and intentionally I guarantee you it wasn't that's the honest truth tho proving that would be impossible.

Thanks for your clarity. That means the focus on persuading them of that is important.

I noted your mention of autism earlier on, and appreciate that may well have had an impact on things. As mentioned by @Fawkes Cat it would probably help if you could evidence that with any diagnosis information, if you have something? Or if eg your Doctor or specialist might be able to write in a letter how the nature of that autism could have lead you to believe what you did was in line with the rules, albeit mistakenly - perhaps - if that is possible. Is this something you might feel able to do perhaps?

I'm aware the sum paid back could be huge but I have spoken to many people around me and they have been happy to help pay it.

That's good work on your part. And good you have supportive people around you.

I'm just worried about them skilling over the settlement and lead straight to prosecution as was put "to make an example of me"

I don't think we have ever seen this happen here. The only cases that we have seen go direct to SJPN are when the railway has run out of time on the 6 moths to let people engage with them. You are some months off that point after all. Or when someone has moved address and not arranged to have their post forwarded and did not receive material sent by the railway company or the court.

I'm willing to pay the charges for my invalid tickets should they issue the settlement but my overarching fear is they won't offer it

None of us can know that 100% but it's not what usually happens.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even tho it may seem that what I have done was done on purpose and intentionally I guarantee you it wasn't that's the honest truth tho proving that would be impossible.

I'm aware the sum paid back could be huge but I have spoken to many people around me and they have been happy to help pay it.

I'm just worried about them skilling over the settlement and lead straight to prosecution as was put "to make an example of me" I'm willing to pay the charges for my invalid tickets should they issue the settlement but my overarching fear is they won't offer it

It's likely they will offer it, though it will be expensive. I'm afraid you will have to wait and see what happens.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect an intelligent person to believe this somehow a gigantic three year long accident and this really seems to stem from a misconception you have about the train company's motives. You think that if you are a deliberate fare evader and fail to convince them otherwise, they will prosecute you. And conversely, that if you can pass off your misbehaviour as a mistake, they will not. Certainly, you seem able to pay back all the fares wrongly claimed, and this is what you now need to aim for. Train companies will settle when they are satisfied you will not repeat the behaviour, which means taking accountability.

This is how I'd view this if I worked for c2c: It is abundantly clear to anyone that a 16-17 Saver ticket is not what you should be buying if you don't have a 16-17 Saver. You knew the 26-30 didn't give a discount; you tried applying it. It did not work. You should know this anyway; it's in the terms and conditions of the railcard, and the FAQs - it isn't hidden, and if you google "26-30 railcard season ticket" you get this as the top result: https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=26-30+railcard+season+tickets&l=1

You shopped around for a discount that did work on season tickets, and found one, and applied it. Your behaviour became entrenched when you were not challenged for some time.

I'd leave out all the stuff about autism; to be blunt they aren't going to care even if the nature of your autism means you invent your own rules which happen to be consistent and also conveniently help you pay the child fare on season tickets as an adult.

You need to apologise for claiming the discount, say you now understand it was against the law, and ask to settle out of court. We can help you write a damage limitaton letter when c2c get in touch with you.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

Okay I will apologise as much as I can and will provide the details of the letter once it arrives. I just want to pay what I owe and ensure I never do this or anything like this again. Not clearly thinking on my part.

 

[WesternLancer]

Okay I will apologise as much as I can and will provide the details of the letter once it arrives. I just want to pay what I owe and ensure I never do this or anything like this again. Not clearly thinking on my part.

As a general guide - this is the best way to seek to keep the matter out of court.

If you are not confident about your own ability to do this then there is also the opportunity to engage a solicitor to help you with it (tho best to use one that has experience in rail fares related work of which serval get mentioned on this forum) - but of course this does come at a cost to you in terms o paying the solicitors fees.

 

[SECR 65]

Even if the OP's version of events regarding believing there was a problem with the website seems like an excuse, personally, I believe them. Especially for someone with autism, it can be very easy to jump to conclusions and overlook an option that seems obvious to others.

However, sadly, as others have said, I feel C2C are likely to see this as an excuse, however true it may be. Therefore, in my own view, I probably wouldn't neccecarily mention being autistic - whilst a perfectly legitimate mitigating factor, you don't want to make it seem like you're looking for excuses to avoid taking responsibility.

Therfore, in my opinion, prioritise taking accountability and apologising sincerely for what has happened, when the letter arrives. I myself can't see a convincing way of explaining the situation without it seeming like you are lying.

I also reiterate what other members have said that I don't think court is particularly likely in this instance.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

Even if the OP's version of events regarding believing there was a problem with the website seems like an excuse, personally, I believe them. Especially for someone with autism, it can be very easy to jump to conclusions and overlook an option that seems obvious to others.

However, sadly, as others have said, I feel C2C are likely to see this as an excuse, however true it may be. Therefore, in my own view, I probably wouldn't neccecarily mention being autistic - whilst a perfectly legitimate mitigating factor, you don't want to make it seem like you're looking for excuses to avoid taking responsibility.

Therfore, in my opinion, prioritise taking accountability and apologising sincerely for what has happened, when the letter arrives. I myself can't see a convincing way of explaining the situation without it seeming like you are lying.

I also reiterate what other members have said that I don't think court is particularly likely in this instance.

I do feel like an idiot for assuming the website was the one in the wrong and not me and yes an idiot for not doing my own research as well. After looking at all emails where my Railcard was used I found it was used roughly 76 weekly times I have seen someone else do something similar and only pay a settlement so I'm praying for the same.

 

[SECR 65]

I've found one C2C thread - ended in settlement

C2C Fare Evasion for a few months

Hi everyone, Let me start by saying I am fully aware that what has happened is wrong and it will never happen again- he has bought the correct ticket ever since. Long story short, I have been unwell, we fell on really bad financial issues this year as have many people and to try and combat this...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[saismee]

You need to apologise for claiming the discount, say you now understand it was against the law, and ask to settle out of court. We can help you write a damage limitaton letter when c2c get in touch with you.

And bear in mind that it is a strict liability offence, so your intention is irrelevant to whether you are found guilty or not.

You basically just need to convince the company that you won't do it again. It is in their best interest (revenue) to settle out of court with you, so they likely will.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

And bear in mind that it is a strict liability offence, so your intention is irrelevant to whether you are found guilty or not.

You basically just need to convince the company that you won't do it again. It is in their best interest (revenue) to settle out of court with you, so they likely will.

I'm just hoping that the amount won't effect their decision making but should they send me the settlement I will pay it. And I was hoping that it would be in their best interests to just want the money.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm just hoping that the amount won't effect their decision making but should they send me the settlement I will pay it. And I was hoping that it would be in their best interests to just want the money.

Just for the avoidance of doubt (and you may already know this of course) I doubt they will just send you a settlement offer - you are going to need to write to them making it clear you have understood what went wrong and why, why it won't happen again, and that you would be very grateful if they would be considerate enough to offer you a settlement.

It may be of help for you to read the general advice usually given on this forum - so I am copying that below - apols if you have already read it elsewhere - :


Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

Just for the avoidance of doubt (and you may already know this of course) I doubt they will just send you a settlement offer - you are going to need to write to them making it clear you have understood what went wrong and why, why it won't happen again, and that you would be very grateful if they would be considerate enough to offer you a settlement.

It may be of help for you to read the general advice usually given on this forum - so I am copying that below - apols if you have already read it elsewhere - :


Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

You truly think a settlement is doubtful? I'm extremely anxious about all this, I'm struggling to sleep and eat could I really go to prison??

 

[AlterEgo]

You truly think a settlement is doubtful? I'm extremely anxious about all this, I'm struggling to sleep and eat could I really go to prison??

Please read what @WesternLancer posted again, that is not what they said.

 

[duffield]

You truly think a settlement is doubtful? I'm extremely anxious about all this, I'm struggling to sleep and eat could I really go to prison??

Summary: A settlement is highly likely. You will not go to prison even if you do not get a settlement.

 

[SECR 65]

Even going to court is not the end of the world. In the grand scheme of things fare evasion is not a major offence compared to a lot of things. If I understand correctly it does not remain on your criminal record forever. Prison would not ever in a million miles be for someone like you. It would take an IMMENSE amount of fraud to be heading even vaguely towards prison.

I reckon you'll be offered a settlement - obviously no guarantees.

If you're worried about court then seach for some TFL threads - TFL prosecute all the time - sometimes the OP has come back to describe the court process. Just to reassure yourself that it isn't that scary. But in my personal opinion I think the chance of ending up in court is low, provided you cooperate with the railway. If you look at threads for other companies such as GTR and SWR (very common on the forum), they settle basically every single time.

The railway's aim (as I think someone said above) is to get the money you owe them back, and stop you fare evading again. With some good persuasion and regret in your response, they should get the idea how bad you feel.

Please try not to panic; there is nothing you can do until the letter arrives, as stressful as the situation is. Do let us know if you have any further questions.

 

[WesternLancer]

You truly think a settlement is doubtful?

Where did I say that? (if you refer to the posting in the general advice - that is what it is - a general post to give people a general idea - it's not meant to distress you, sorry if it did).

I'm extremely anxious about all this, I'm struggling to sleep and eat could I really go to prison??

No - you wont go to prison. The sentencing guidelines for the court do not allow for that even if it did go to court.

 

[saismee]

Where did I say that? (if you refer to the posting in the general advice - that is what it is - a general post to give people a general idea - it's not meant to distress you, sorry if it did).

To clarify, WesternLancer meant that receiving a settlement offer in the first letter is unlikely, but it is quite likely that you will be able to get a settlement after replying. And as everyone else has said, prison is not going to happen, it's nowhere near that serious.

 

[WesternLancer]

To clarify, WesternLancer meant that receiving a settlement offer in the first letter is unlikely, but it is quite likely that you will be able to get a settlement after replying.

Thank you - yes this is exactly what I meant.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

Thank you - yes this is exactly what I meant.

sorry i started to hyperventilate and freak out i misunderstood what you meant at the time. I just want to pay them and for this to be over so i can sleep.

 

[saismee]

sorry i started to hyperventilate and freak out i misunderstood what you meant at the time. I just want to pay them and for this to be over so i can sleep.

While telling you to calm down won't help, you do need to calm down and slow down a bit. This isn't going to be life-ruining, not even close, it's a very minor offence that doesn't even require intent to defraud the company to be convicted of. Unless you're going into a regulated profession such as accounting, it likely wouldn't even have a noticeable effect.

And that's if you even get convicted... which is unlikely if you admit fault and ask nicely. It's a win for the company if they can get a big lump of money out of you with a settlement offer.

 

[TheJester]

sorry i started to hyperventilate and freak out i misunderstood what you meant at the time. I just want to pay them and for this to be over so i can sleep.

Relax. They don’t really want to prosecute you. But you do need to pay back the fares you avoided.

Start saving!!