Immediate help required please

[imsosvrwwed]

I was on the train and a ticket inspector checked my smart card for my journey then requested to see my Railcard which I showed them I had clicked using 16-17 instead of 26-30 only because there was no other options on booking a season ticket.

When issuing the ticket they were taking too long to issue it and I had to get off the train at the next stop by the time I had arrived them still were taking too long and then they gave me back my cards and told me I would receive a prosecution letter.

During this I mentioned having done it before without issue as previous inspectors never flagged it etc. will they use that as evidence to go through all my previous tickets? And would that result in me being prosecuted for every single time I have done that?

 

[walkingsophie]

Do you know which railway company this was? Have you received any paperwork?

 

[imsosvrwwed]

Do you know which railway company this was? Have you received any paperwork?

C2c and no paperwork yet

 

[Crithylum]

The 26-30 railcard cannot be used to discount season tickets, which is why that option wasn't available. You will likely need to pay quite a hefty settlement at the full anytime price for any journeys made, plus an admin fee.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

The 26-30 railcard cannot be used to discount season tickets, which is why that option wasn't available. You will likely need to pay quite a hefty settlement at the full anytime price for any journeys made, plus an admin fee.

I have been doing it for 3 years without a problem I literally thought I was just an error on the site as it was never pointed out to me previously

 

[AlterEgo]

I have been doing it for 3 years without a problem I literally thought I was just an error on the site as it was never pointed out to me previously

It's not really reasonable to think the "website had an error" for three years - any reasonable person would realise the 26-30 didn't give a discount and probably check why not, rather than browsing around for a railcard which did offer that discount, which clearly isn't okay.

The 16-17 railcard not only discounts season tickets, unlike railcards for older people, it also gives a 50% discount on all fares which is more than any other age related railcard.

What was the journey you were making, and what type of season ticket do you have? How much did it cost?

 

[6Gman]

I have been doing it for 3 years without a problem I literally thought I was just an error on the site as it was never pointed out to me previously

This is going to be very, very expensive if you have been claimiing a discount to which you are not entitled for three years.

A settlement without prosecution is possible but - as I say - expensive.

For now all you can do is wait for them to get in touch.

 

[walkingsophie]

Here's general advice often posted on these forums:

Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have been doing it for 3 years without a problem I literally thought I was just an error on the site as it was never pointed out to me previously

Did you never read the instructions or T&C for the railcard you do have? I’m sure it will show it doesn’t cover seasons. You’re not likely to convince the TOC this was an error.

 

[JamesWatson]

You will likely need to pay quite a hefty settlement at the full anytime price for any journeys made, plus an admin fee.

For the anytime journeys or the full price season ticket? I think it would need to be the latter, as there may not be enough evidence of the number of journeys actually made over the 3 years, so no good reliable figure to index against

 

[30907]

For the anytime journeys or the full price season ticket? I think it would need to be the latter, as there may not be enough evidence of the number of journeys actually made over the 3 years, so no good reliable figure to index against

An interesting point. I don't recall a case involving a 16-17 season ticket, and C2C aren't often mentioned on here, so there's a lack of precedent.

Either way it could be a substantial sum.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The 26-30 railcard cannot be used to discount season tickets,

To give some chapter and verse on this, the 26-30 railcard website tells us at https://www.26-30railcard.co.uk/using-your-railcard/travel-times-tickets/:

Where and when can I use my Railcard?
Your 26-30 Railcard gets you 1/3 off most off-peak rail fares to travel across Great Britain. There are tickets, time restrictions and minimum fares, so check below to help you plan:



Save on these types of tickets
Standard Anytime and Anytime Day Singles and Returns

Standard Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns

Standard Super Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns

Standard and First Class Advance*

Most Rail Rovers fares
Gatwick Express, Stansted Express and Heathrow Express
Oyster Off-Peak pay as you go Daily Price Cap and Off-Peak pay as you go single fares for journeys on National Rail, London Underground and Docklands Light Railway
Anytime Day Travelcard Zones 1-9 when bought as part of ticket to London from outside the London Zones area (Subject to minimum fare of £23.60)
PLUSBUS tickets
Some rail/sea journeys with Wightlink and Red Funnel Ferries to stations on the Isle of Wight and Hovertravel services to and from Ryde Hoverport
*These tickets need to be booked before you travel.

**Discount is only available on tickets as part of a journey from/to a National Rail station and on combined rail/sea journeys from/to Ryde Hoverport.

That doesn't include season tickets. But to make it clearer, the page goes on to say (with my italics for emphasis):

Minimum Fares & Time Restrictions
(...)
If you travel regularly between 04:30 and 09:59 Monday to Friday, to work or your place of study for instance, a weekly or monthly Season ticket could be the best way for you to save money. Railcards do not give discounts on Season tickets(...)

and

Your 26-30 Railcard WON'T apply to:
(...)
Season tickets including Travelcard Season tickets(...)

While I wouldn't say you shouldn't try, you're going to face an uphill struggle convincing the railway that you had no reasonable way of knowing that you couldn't use your railcard against a season ticket.

 

[Haywain]

as there may not be enough evidence of the number of journeys actually made over the 3 years,

As the OP apparently held the season ticket on a smartcard, there might be quite a lot of records. Whether that's the case or not, they have been buying season tickets at half price for 3 years, so will find it easy to calculate a starting point (that being the amount they have paid for those seasons) for what the train operator will be looking to recover.

 

[JamesWatson]

As the OP apparently held the season ticket on a smartcard, there might be quite a lot of records. Whether that's the case or not, they have been buying season tickets at half price for 3 years, so will find it easy to calculate a starting point (that being the amount they have paid for those seasons) for what the train operator will be looking to recover.

I'm not sure how long tap history is retained for, 3 years is possible, I guess. But it would only be a record of when the OP needed to tap in and out, there would be no record of when gates were open or ungated etc. Either way, as others have said, the sum will be heavty.

 

[saismee]

I'm not sure how long tap history is retained for, 3 years is possible, I guess. But it would only be a record of when the OP needed to tap in and out, there would be no record of when gates were open or ungated etc. Either way, as others have said, the sum will be heavty.

They just need a tap on one end to say a journey was made, and because seasons are non-transferable, there's no doubt that it was OP who travelled (or allowed another person to use their ticket).

 

[Haywain]

I'm not sure how long tap history is retained for, 3 years is possible, I guess.

I don't know either.

it would only be a record of when the OP needed to tap in and out, there would be no record of when gates were open or ungated etc.

As we don't know the journey we can't know that, but any taps and scans would create a starting point at the very least. In any event, the purchase record for the seasons will be available as they have been bought online.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As we don't know the journey...

An Anytime Day Single from somewhere like Shoeburyness or Thorpe Bay into London Fenchurch Street (via Pitsea) is currently something like £13.10 one way. Such a journey undertaken several times a week, over a year or more and the OP could soon be looking at an demand for unpaid fares running into thousand of pounds. If it does come to that, at what stage might the OP be best advised to seek out specialist legal representation?

 

[WesternLancer]

An Anytime Day Single from somewhere like Shoeburyness or Thorpe Bay into London Fenchurch Street (via Pitsea) is currently something like £13.10 one way. Such a journey undertaken several times a week, over a year or more and the OP could soon be looking at a demand for unpaid fares running into thousand of pounds. If it does come to that, at what stage might the OP be best advised to seek out specialist legal representation?

Probably at the point when they receive formal correspondence about this, but they might wish to seek an out of court settlement themselves using the advice from here already posted first.

Even with a generous interpretation it’s not very believable that anyone would think they were entitled to this discount in my view without holding the railcard concerned. It’s detailed in the basic outline of the railcard after all, not buried in small print t&c

Regardless c2c may well rather have the large wad of cash owed to them than go through with the bother of prosecution, if the op engages with them co operativly.

 

[Haywain]

If it does come to that, at what stage might the OP be best advised to seek out specialist legal representation?

I note that on the forum there seems to be an increasing tendency to suggest people do that but there is nothing the OP can do until they receive a letter from c2C (or their representatives) other than appraise themselves of their own situation. By that I mean make themselves fully aware of how many season tickets have been bought with a discount, and at what cost, along with a calculation of how many journeys have been made over the extended period of time involved. The number of seasons and likely usage will depend somewhat on whether they have been using weekly or monthly seasons.

 

[flitwickbeds]

(Apologies for the formatting below - forum software doesn't allow quotes within quotes)

That doesn't include season tickets. But to make it clearer, the page goes on to say (with my italics for emphasis):

Minimum Fares & Time Restrictions
(...)
If you travel regularly between 04:30 and 09:59 Monday to Friday, to work or your place of study for instance, a weekly or monthly Season ticket could be the best way for you to save money. Railcards do not give discounts on Season tickets(...)

and


While I wouldn't say you shouldn't try, you're going to face an uphill struggle convincing the railway that you had no reasonable way of knowing that you couldn't use your railcard against a season ticket.

Your 26-30 Railcard WON'T apply to:
(...)
Season tickets including Travelcard Season tickets(...)

-------

Does the 16-17 Railcard allow discounts on season tickets? If not how was one acquired?

 

[Haywain]

Does the 16-17 Railcard allow discounts on season tickets?

Yes.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Does the 16-17 Railcard allow discounts on season tickets? If not how was one acquired?

Per https://www.16-17saver.co.uk/benefits/

If you’re aged 16 or 17, you can now enjoy 50% off Standard Anytime, Off-Peak, Advance and Season tickets (...)

(My italics for emphasis)

 

[flitwickbeds]

Thanks both.

Seems someone needs to review the wording of "Railcards do not give discounts on Season tickets"...

 

[Haywain]

Thanks both.

Seems someone needs to review the wording of "Railcards do not give discounts on Season tickets"...

You'll note that the product that does give a discount isn't called a railcard, it's called a 16-17 Saver.

 

[AlterEgo]

You'll note that the product that does give a discount isn't called a railcard, it's called a 16-17 Saver.

Indeed, and that's because it effectively freezes child discounts for older teenagers when they buy it.

Back to the OP's problem, you'll need to add up every single journey (in the absence of any data they'll assume you travel five days a week), and apply the Anytime Single price each way to work out the worst case scenario. But either way this is very sustained fare evasion I'm afraid.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Back to the OP's problem, you'll need to add up every single journey (in the absence of any data they'll assume you travel five days a week),

Picking up on this point, it may be worth the OP trying to document the days they travel - many people these days work from home for some days each week. Work diaries would be good for this, or maybe a signed statement from the OP's employer.

Obviously, this all needs to be true!

 

[Haywain]

Picking up on this point, it may be worth the OP trying to document the days they travel - many people these days work from home for some days each week. Work diaries would be good for this, or maybe a signed statement from the OP's employer.

I think it's far too early to be worrying about that. And the OP might want to consider whether they want to (or have to) tell their employer about their current situation.

 

[imsosvrwwed]

so no letter yet and to update as many questions as i can i estimate i have bought a season ticket for 90 weeks using 16-17. the reason for me believing this was fine is because 1. i have been stopped and checked by many inspectors and never been questioned. 2. i once spoke to a staff member about it and they shrugged and just told me to use 16-17. 3. im autistic and train travel does make me anxious and nervous plus i was applying my own logic to the situation than a normal person. i have used the season ticket to actively go from the start of the labelled journey to the end of the labelled journey and not abusing it in anyway. i have looked at the tickets as a whole and the average single ticket to the location is £5.50 and the same returning. i use the season ticket for 5 days a week for work and thats all i estimate 90 weeks as i only bought a railcard in 2024 and began using it in may of the same year so taking into consideration my annual time off of 7 weeks a year i estimate out of the 104 weeks 90 of them i had bought a season ticket for. now that i have realised how wrong i was for doing this im extremely worried and willing to pay however much i owe. i am hoping for a settlement offer as with help of friends and family i may be able to afford it tho i expect it to be in the thousands. my concern is that they may take this further without offering a settlement fee but i havent found any cases of which that has occurred.

 

[JimmBuck]

So assuming 90 incorrectly purchased Season Tickets, multiplied by 5 days a week and 2 journeys a day of ~£5.50 each - looks like ~£4950 as a rough minimum.

 

[WesternLancer]

so no letter yet and to update as many questions as i can i estimate i have bought a season ticket for 90 weeks using 16-17. the reason for me believing this was fine is because 1. i have been stopped and checked by many inspectors and never been questioned. 2. i once spoke to a staff member about it and they shrugged and just told me to use 16-17. 3. im autistic and train travel does make me anxious and nervous plus i was applying my own logic to the situation than a normal person. i have used the season ticket to actively go from the start of the labelled journey to the end of the labelled journey and not abusing it in anyway. i have looked at the tickets as a whole and the average single ticket to the location is £5.50 and the same returning. i use the season ticket for 5 days a week for work and thats all i estimate 90 weeks as i only bought a railcard in 2024 and began using it in may of the same year so taking into consideration my annual time off of 7 weeks a year i estimate out of the 104 weeks 90 of them i had bought a season ticket for. now that i have realised how wrong i was for doing this im extremely worried and willing to pay however much i owe. i am hoping for a settlement offer as with help of friends and family i may be able to afford it tho i expect it to be in the thousands. my concern is that they may take this further without offering a settlement fee but i havent found any cases of which that has occurred.

Have you told us when you were stopped and questioned about this? When was it roughly? Eg this week, last 7 days, 3 weeks ago etc

They have up to 6 months to commence court action so this creates a deadline for them to act within. But it could be some time within that period that the write or e mail you.
Keep an eye on hard copy post and spam e mail too