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If enthusiasts ran the railways...

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Aictos

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I adopt Merseyrail's attitude to anti social behaviour and roll it out nationwide!

With a nationwide PF scheme I would ensure a mass recruitment drive would result in all trains having a second member of staff onboard ideally working in pairs on trains.

I would use purchase orders to reinstall the Lincoln avoiding line and divert all freight onto it round Lincoln rather then though Lincoln which would please many people and see if March to Spalding could be done even if though a slightly different route.

With regards to electrification, Peterborough to Ely via March, Ely to Ipswich, Ely to Norwich and Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln would all get done as well as ensuring the cross country route between Peterborough and Birmingham gets done - freight would then no longer need to use the NLL to travel from East Anglia ports to the Midlands which in turn would allow for a even more intestive service!
 
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Mojo

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I disagree with Penalty Fares which after all IMO is just a charter for faredodgers. Those guilty should be prosecuted and those not should be sold a normal ticket.
 

sprinterguy

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It all depends on how you look at enthusiasts views on running the railway, and the concept behind this thread! I and many others are viewing this thread in a good humoured way and allowing our flights of fantasy take wing, and doing what we would LIKE to do in our imaginations. In that case, yep we'd all be screwed :lol:

But enthusiasts could also have a lot to offer in the way of experience and on the ground know how and could make many informed changes for the better. I have often sat and thought about how I would run things in a serious, mature manner, and am doing my damn best to get into a train planning career as it happens. But I'm enjoying the fun element of this thread, to hell with what works and what doesn't in the real world :D
 

Aictos

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One thing we could consider is if BR never closed the Nene Valley route to Rugby and Northampton then it could have been used for freight to travel between the East Anglia ports and the Midlands rather then seeing freight head south on the GEML, across on the NLL and back up on the WCML.
Yes, it might have never been electrified but would have been a decent route.

Okay this meant the Nene Valley Railway might have never existed but at the costs of increasing capacity elsewhere ie the NLL, I think it would have been worth it.

Would help in diversions as well.
 

Drsatan

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If I was supreme overlord of the national rail network I'd consider gauge-clearing the WCML and ECML to UIC gauge (with branches to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds etc included). Although this would be expensive and disruptive, it would enable UIC gauge freight vehicles to access NR metals, which would make operating freight trains to Europe and back much easier, and, in turn, allow for a greater modal shift from road transport to rail for international freight. However, I accept this is dependent on other factors, like pathing issues, availability and convenience of freight depots, and above all, price.

UIC passenger coaches could also operate, so if HS2 is built and the WCML is UIC standard, there would be no need to build a separate fleet of trains specifically for services only using HS2 for part of their journeys. SNCF, DB et al would be welcome to operate international services, and pick up from where Nightstar failed. In 20 years time it would be nice to board a DB Nachtzug service at Manchester Piccadilly and wake up in Cologne!
 

Dai.

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I'm no good at running the running of things, although I could do well on the business side,

What I could ask is -

Someone let me be in charge of the designing?!
Thanks! haha..

I wouldn't redesign every engine out there, but I'd definitely get rid of -

East Coast Liveries,
Arriva Trains Wales,
Northern,
Freightliner Class 70's Livery

and more when I think of it.


but yeah, thats the main reason I spot, just to comment on design!
 

ChrisCooper

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I disagree with Penalty Fares which after all IMO is just a charter for faredodgers. Those guilty should be prosecuted and those not should be sold a normal ticket.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think the big problem with justice in this country is that there are too many of these quick and easy punishments, whether penalty fares, fixed penalties, cautions etc. The problem is that too often they are either used where more serious punishments are justified, and also in cases where punishment isn't warrented and any real charge wouldn't stick (often they follow the idea of guilty until proven innocent). The problem is people often won't contest or appeal them (even in cases like cautions where you actually have to admit to the "crime") for fear of coming out worse, even if they know they are right, or won't contest them as they know they are wrong and are getting an easy way out compared to what they deserve.

Really, my opinion is that if someone does something wrong serious enough to warrent dealing with through the courts, then it should go to court. If someone does something wrong that does not warrent going to court then it should be delt with reasonably and sensibly, but based around setting things right rarther than punishment. Only the courts should really have the power to hand out punishments.
 

TGV

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If enthusiasts ran the railways, we'd be screwed :).

I was about to make the exact same point! We'd have an awesome selection of rolling stock, state of the art electrification and signalling, fantastic stations and customer service...

... and be in billions of £££ of debt.
 

mikeg

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I'd like to see more electrification, fewer DMUs and more loco-hauled stock for longer trains... I don't mind EMUs (so long as the windows and seats line up) but the engine noise on DMUs can be a bit much for non-engine-noise-liking-enthusiasts on long journeys.

I'd also change the franchises to give each operator a self contained network.

i.e. Merge Northern and TPE franchises, a single integrated WCML franchise (with most of LM's services, the Northern Rail Crewe/Stoke-MAN routes). Snow Hill lines go to Chiltern, Scotrail's purely ECML operations go to East Coast, merge South Central and Southeastern. There'd still be a XC franchise, and it'd get the MAN-Norwich route also. This way the operators would get a greater return on investment on any routes where they invest in infrastructure as it wouldn't be shared with another operator. But to encourage competition we'd still have open access operators. I also agree with the tories idea of longer franchises and less micromanagement but we'd need to keep fare regulation on savers etc, something I fear the tories might cave in to ATOC on.
Staff to offer rangers when theres little difference in price or when they're cheaper.
No high speed line, invest in other services instead, although maybe maglev could be looked at :D The risks are higher but some studies I've seen suggest a similar cost to TGV-style high speed rail.

I also agree with getting rid of penalty fares. Civil penalties generally aren't recognised in Enrglish law elsewhere, those caught faredodging should be hauled before the magistrates, where more discretion at to greater/lesser punishments as appropriate to the persons crime and means can be given.

Oh, and amplifiers for the 323 traction electricals. One of the best sounds on the railway.
 
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jrhilton

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I'd like to see more electrification, fewer DMUs and more loco-hauled stock for longer trains...

I'm interested to know why you would want to see more loco-hauled stock (and it is a genuine interest and not just a jibe)?

The way I see it, the future is more likely to be multiple units for the following reasons, better power to weight ratios, more energy efficient (will become more important in the future), less wear and tare on tracks etc due to the possibility of having lower axle loads. You can potentially take more advantage of power-regen, plus having as many units articulated together increases crash worthiness (but I admit difficult to split sets of carriages hence the use of "units"), and the wear and tear on couplings is lower too. Also a "light" engineless DVT at the opposite end to a loco is not ideal/as safe as can be when going at speeds greater than 140mph if it is windy or there is now/ice on the line. Of course where there are platform length limits, you can have more seats too.

SNCF and Alstom for example seem to be going down the route of "AGVs" which are in essence high speed multiple units rather than having a dedicated power car at each end.

The above are mainly manufacturing reasons, from a passenger's point of view it is better to have a noisy loco at the end of the train rather than diesel engines under your feet, but EMUs designed for long distance tend to be well insulated with little noise from engines being heard.

I’m interested to hear your thoughts.
 

ChrisCooper

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The main thing I would do if I ran the railways would be to slash the crashworthness requirement for new trains, reducing weight and increasing capacity. Even the Mk1s were very safe, the Mk2s and Mk3s were even safer. The modern crashworthness standards are over the top and I imagine they are only justified as the true costs are not taken into account (extra fuel use, lost capacity etc, all over the lifetime of the trains). There has only been one serious accident involving post-privatisation stock, Greyrigg, and Mk2s and Mk3s have been shown to perform very well in derailments, and the Mk1s also have a good record (at least when you don't cook the statistics by adding in pre-Mk1s in). Crumple Zones particularly have no place on trains.
 

Heinz57

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I reckon if enthusiasts ran the railways things would run properly. Everything would be on time, the railways would be organised and the stock would be in tip top condition. Because half the people in charge now and who have been in charge don't have a clue what the hell they're doing!

One of my rules...

HSTs WOULD NOT ever be removed from service and scrapped!
 

jon0844

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I reckon if enthusiasts ran the railways things would run properly. Everything would be on time, the railways would be organised and the stock would be in tip top condition. Because half the people in charge now and who have been in charge don't have a clue what the hell they're doing!

But if anything went wrong, all the staff would be out trying to find out what the number of the affected trains were - then come on to a forum to post the pictures.
 

TGV

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The main thing I would do if I ran the railways would be to slash the crashworthness requirement for new trains, reducing weight and increasing capacity. Even the Mk1s were very safe, the Mk2s and Mk3s were even safer. The modern crashworthness standards are over the top and I imagine they are only justified as the true costs are not taken into account (extra fuel use, lost capacity etc, all over the lifetime of the trains). There has only been one serious accident involving post-privatisation stock, Greyrigg, and Mk2s and Mk3s have been shown to perform very well in derailments, and the Mk1s also have a good record (at least when you don't cook the statistics by adding in pre-Mk1s in). Crumple Zones particularly have no place on trains.

I can't disagree more with this. Mk1 and 2 stock was declared safe many years ago, but only when compared to their predecessors. By modern standards they're not good enough - especially at high speeds. Mk 3s have a good record, but even then, there have been some notable catastrophic structural failures - Look at Southall and Ladbroke Grove in particular. When the side of one carriage had an impact from the adjacent freight wagon, it created a weak point that moments later when subjected to an end load as the HST compacted, caused the whole carriage to buckle in half and folder over itself as the following carriages compressed it. This can be mitigated for with modern designs and materials. As good as Mk3's are, they can still be improved.

Mk 4s seem to have fared well considering they've been involved in some of the highest speed and most violent impacts - Great Heck in particular which is, at 142mph closing speed, the fastest collision in UK history. The DVT there was the principle crash structure - it absorbed so much of the initial energy (sadly at the cost of the driver), that the carriages had less to worry about. Still a lot of energy to be dissipated though. Had the 91 been leading, it's postulated that the impact wouldn't have occurred as the heavier loco wouldn't have been deflected like the DVT was on impact with the Land Rover. Even if it had been deflected and impacted with the freight loco, it's greater mass would have changed the dynamics of the impact - for better or worse can't be guessed. It would have been subjected to less deflection than the DVT but would not have absorbed as much energy. Either way, the fact is, it makes a difference.

This is well worth a read: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1202

The Pendolino at Greyrigg stood up astonishingly well to the forces involved. There was no impact with another train, and the speed was around 90mph, which is significantly less than Great Heck, however, such was the integrity of the structures after the crash, it's clear they are very strong and well designed.

On the other end of the scale look at Clapham Junction - total carnage in a relatively modest speed impact because the trains were not up to the job structurally. Look at the photos and the failure mode of the carriage structures - it's frightening.

Can you imagine if new stock was designed with lower crashworthiness requirements, then it was subsequently involved in a collision in which 20 people died, and it was revealed to the public that this was the case and some or all of the lives would have been saved if the standards were met to previously held levels? Outcry.

Your last comment "Crumple zones particularly have no place on trains" leads me to think you don't fully understand the dynamics of an impact. Crashworthiness is the ability of the structure of a vehicle (car, train, truck, bus, whatever) to protect the occupants by limiting the impact forces that reach them, and managing the energy round the passenger structure to ensure that the "survival space" is not compromised. It's simple, basic physics that you need to disperse the energy over as long a distance as is possible to give you the maximum time to absorb the energy and therefore reduce the acceleration (which is what creates the large forces that cause the problems). Crumple zones may cost a few seats in a carriage, but at the cost of a few lives in a crash? That's a no-brainer in my book. It's the exact same principle that allows thousands of people to walk out of car crashes that would have been fatal 20 years ago when they had steel ladder chassis that directed the forces straight into the body shell where they were sitting.

The other thing in crashworthiness is bogie retention - vehicles shedding bogies has long been identified as a major issue in collisions. Those bogies are very heavy and can cause huge secondary impacts after the initial one. Same goes with the wheelsets within them.

Interiors need to be carefully designed - seats and tables coming loose can cause serious injuries and death.

Windows breaking too easily allowing passengers to literally fall out of moving carriages (as happened at Heck and Hatfield) while the train is moving is an issue. You can't stop flying bits of steel breaking glass of course, but if the structure that retains the window is not stiff enough (and it is a main part of the survival space) then the displacement of the structure from impact forces at the end of the carriage, will either smash the window or let it pop out before anything has even hit it. This is a fundamental failure of the worst kind.

Same goes for access doors - they must have a structure that can allow them to be opened by either passengers or emergency services after an impact. As these are often located in the crumple zones, this is a particular challenge.

Articulated bogies - MAJOR advantage - huge gains in crashworthiness from using them where possible. They allow a much stronger link between vehicles, they don't dislodge as easily and they give the train a much more rigid formation. Look at the TGV and Eurostar derailments of the past - some at 300km/h!!! The trains often remain upright, in line and in formation. Read this: http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/wrecks.html

So - reducing crashworthiness is a MAJOR MAJOR mistake. Some impacts simply cannot be accounted for. Some, like Great Heck and Eschede in Germany have impacts so violent that no crashworthiness can reasonably contain the damage that will result, but think of the death tolls in those incidents if the structures were designed to accommodate a few more passengers at the expense of structural integrity... it'd be like a plane crash.
 

Royston Vasey

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The main thing I would do if I ran the railways would be to slash the crashworthness requirement for new trains, reducing weight and increasing capacity. Even the Mk1s were very safe, the Mk2s and Mk3s were even safer. The modern crashworthness standards are over the top and I imagine they are only justified as the true costs are not taken into account (extra fuel use, lost capacity etc, all over the lifetime of the trains). There has only been one serious accident involving post-privatisation stock, Greyrigg, and Mk2s and Mk3s have been shown to perform very well in derailments, and the Mk1s also have a good record (at least when you don't cook the statistics by adding in pre-Mk1s in). Crumple Zones particularly have no place on trains.

Given your intelligent discussion of emissions control and engine systems in the Great Western electrification thread, I am surprised to read a post like this from you. The reason crash worthiness has been an increasing priority is exactly because Mk 1 and even the later generations have been proven to have major design flaws.

As stated by TGV, even Mk 3s have been utterly destroyed on more than one occasion, Polmont being another. The Mk 4s performed generally well (other than the buffet car, which was still survivable) at Great Heck and elsewhere. The Pendolino at Grayrigg, though not hitting a static or moving object, was remarkably intact.

Contrast that to the relatively low speed Clapham accident, which is a case in point on Mk 1s. In addition, there are numerous reports of Mk 1 coaches (and units based thereupon) becoming detached from their underframes in accidents, whereas the monocoque construction of Mk 2 and later coaches have striven beyond these flaws to where we are today.

How can you state the crumple zones have no place on trains? They have been modelled and tested to protect the passenger, they just haven't been tested to their full potential in a real accident sutuation, thankfully. So what if you could squeeze another couple of seats in when removing crash protection would leave those passengers exposed to the crushing forces of an accident?

You're obviously a technically minded guy yet you ignore the weight of evidence and make unsupported assumptions about costs of accident protection. There is no such thing as too safe.
 

CarterUSM

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That was a fine post that I found very interesting indeed TGV, I have basic physics knowledge myself, and without seeming patronising I really have to commend the clarity and easily understood terminology and examples used thus. A lot of these safety issues do require a lot of common sense, emergency egress for instance. It is also without doubt that crashworthiness should NOT be reduced at any price. Gambling with that is not an option in my book.
 

SouthEastern-465

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If it was run by Enthusiasts whilst some commuters would like the 'Heritage' scene, others would want new, nice trains to operate on the lines.

Also another thing you wouldn't get that excited if you went on a rail tour either as most of the stock running the tour the enthusiast would have running normal passenger services!
 

yorksrob

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With regard to crash worthiness, whilst it's natural and proper that modern rolling stock should be stronger than it's predecessors, and I wouldn't relax any rules on introducing new stock, I would probably relax some of the rules on running heritage trains on the mainlines. Afterall, consenting adults are allowed to get up to far more dangerous things than riding around in Mk 1's.
 

SouthEastern-465

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With regard to crash worthiness, whilst it's natural and proper that modern rolling stock should be stronger than it's predecessors, and I wouldn't relax any rules on introducing new stock, I would probably relax some of the rules on running heritage trains on the mainlines. Afterall, consenting adults are allowed to get up to far more dangerous things than riding around in Mk 1's.

I agree.

If the Lymington Class 421 CIGs did get preserved we could have 2 MK1 EMUs on the mainline, to fill in for the now deceased 1881. :)
 

yorksrob

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I agree.

If the Lymington Class 421 CIGs did get preserved we could have 2 MK1 EMUs on the mainline, to fill in for the now deceased 1881. :)

Yes indeed, would be far better to have them roaming in their natural habitat where they belong :D
 
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