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If enthusiasts ran the railways...

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37401

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Basicly just of how things would be if it was ran by enthusiasts

Everything would be loco hauled
Drivers would have to give horns on request
Drivers would be told to do no less than notch 4 when departing
Nothing would get scrapped
ALRs would be £2 for cranks
 
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Ivo

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Basicly just of how things would be if it was ran by enthusiasts

Everything would be loco hauled
Drivers would have to give horns on request
Drivers would be told to do no less than notch 4 when departing
Nothing would get scrapped
ALRs would be £2 for cranks

Traitor!!!!! What about Pacers? Oh, wait - some people actually like them. As in about seven people nationwide :D

It's a good point though, and one that I would like to see tested one day (however unlikely). I (among others) have pitched this idea before but if we ran the Lymington Flyer not only would the 3CIGs continue in service - there must be other examples around that could be salvaged for spares as a last resort - and the line would have a near-perfect performance record. Its costs would be almost zero, because we would run it as a volunteer (yet commercial...!) service, and the upkeep would be pristine. And the definition of "Heritage" would have a new meaning on the line.

Love the £2 ALR idea. But it can't be available to any old coot, otherwise there'd be a new Beeching on the horizon...
 

Nick W

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Erm, despite the impression you might get from reading RailUK, not all enthusiasts are naive kooks lacking any perception of reality! There are a good few enthusiasts who have gone to be very effective managers on the railway!
 

Aictos

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God help us!

No I don't think that's a good idea at all and while I do entertain the thought of seeing regular loco hauled services like we used to see, the matter of the fact is these days are long behind us.

From a operational point of view, it's easier to go with MUs although you can't just insert and remove a coach depending on demand as you can with LHCS.

If anything, while I do want to see more and more community railways springing up and have the Lymington Flyer as the newest member I do want to run the majority of the services as a public service for the majority of the public who probably wouldn't give two hoots if it were 37 hauled just as long as they got a seat.

What would I replace the Pacers with I heard some of you ask?
Simple, I would embark on replacing them with 2 or 3 car versions of the 172s and in some places try to run them in pairs.

I would then export the Pacers to our good friends, the Mullahs of Iran :)
 

TrainBrain185

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Enthusiasts running a railway? Why not, as long they are of a true professional background with the relevant qualifications. However, if the question relates to frother, foamer, nostalgic platform number crunchers running the show, then no thanks. Likely a recipe for disaster.
 

theblackwatch

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Erm, despite the impression you might get from reading RailUK, not all enthusiasts are naive kooks lacking any perception of reality! There are a good few enthusiasts who have gone to be very effective managers on the railway!

I suspect some people on here would be surprised at how many senior people in the railway are actually enthusiasts of one sort or another. I won't mention any names in particular, but I saw the MD of one TOC on a railtour in Germany before Easter. A couple of years back at the NYMR, I spent one journey sat in the front bay behind the loco talking to someone who is now MD of a TOC, and another TOC MD is known to do Deltic tours.
 

GNERman

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any plastic rubbish would be romeved...
tonnes of lines would be reopened...
loco hauled evwerywhere..
nothing from america...
 

Drsatan

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Let me guess: due to a shortage of volunteers willing to inspect the track in all weathers at all times of day, TSRs would be imposed everywhere so punctuality would plummet. And, because you wouldn't find many people able or willing to operate ballast tamping machines, rail relaying trains, or even ballast trains at worksites, rails wouldn't be replaced once they became worn out, ballast would go unwashed: basically it wouldn't be too long before a repeat of Hatfield and Potters Bar happened.

Besides, where would you find the volunteers willing to work 12 hour shifts in signalboxes to keep the trains moving? It wouldn't be easy to keep trains moving if the volunteer signalman kept ringing up control to state he'd be busy today and couldn't pop down to the box for a bit.

Mind you, if enthusiasts ran the railways, we'd be seeing more loco hauled trains because ownership of the track and the rolling stock would be in the same hands, hence LHCS trains could be run without resorting to track access charges. Expect to see 20s, 31s, 37s, 47s, 57s, 67s and Mk1/2/3 carriages on most services that operate on non-electrified track. Whether the passenger would prefer a claggy 37 and 6-7 dirty Mk1s instead of a 158 would remain to be seen, but on the former the passenger would be more likely to get a seat :)

On a national basis, I don't think the railways could be run by enthusiasts for the above reasons, although it would be nice to think they could be. However, I accept that a few, self-contained branch lines could be run on a community-orientated basis by enthusiasts, such as the Lymington branch. If enthusiasts ran that particular line, then the stations and trains might be maintained to a higher standard than if SWT were responsible for operations. Not to mention that the old timber-loading sidings near Brockenhurst station could be used to store additional rolling stock to operate Lymington branch services on a temporary basis, prior to more permanent accommodation being constructed. Top and tail 20s on Lymington services, anyone? Or, space was found to create a run-round loop at Lymington pier, maybe 34067 Tangmere and a rake of Mk1s on the odd charter service to London? These are all possibilities, but determination and money would be needed to make them happen.

There could be other candidates for existing branch lines part of NR to become community railways run by enthusiasts.
 

Tomnick

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Running any part of the national network solely using enthusiasts really isn't practical. Drsatan's points are entirely relevant - although the p-way inspection and maintenance duties might not be such a problem as long as there was sufficient volunteer manpower (at least there's some flexibility, timewise, in those duties), competent cover for attending p-way and S&T faults would be much more difficult to provide on a near-24/7 basis. Likewise, rostering at least two competent Signalmen per box per day, with both turns entering into unsociable hours, would prove almost impossible. The same would apply to traincrew.

I speak from my experience on the GCR - where we (Signalmen) don't have particularly early starts, but we do regularly run as late as 2215 (and sometimes later - I think our latest booked turn each year runs until 0045, on New Year's morning). Trust me, those late turns give our roster clerk a hard time, and that's only one or two late turns per week. I suspect even 2215 is early compared to the finish that would be required on many routes that we might be considering here. Some of our (steam) loco crew turns start around 0600 or earlier (not sure, to be honest) - again, that's a relatively late start compared to the national network. The first Lymington train is in passenger service before 0600, isn't it?

P-way and S&T cover is equally a problem. We, in common with many large heritage railways I suspect, employ a small p-way gang - entirely necessarily. The S&T is, to their credit, entirely run by volunteers - but with a very small number of dedicated people competent to attend S&T faults. In our case, that cover certainly wouldn't extend to a full operation outside weekends, but is sufficient for the relatively light traffic during the week.

Mixing paid staff and volunteers often isn't the most successful exercise. You'd really need to be able to cover most of the essential work with your paid staff, otherwise you'd be in a real muddle if there was no volunteer availability on a particular day (not a huge stretch of the imagination when you consider that most will have day jobs to see to!). They can probably work in the office or something when they're not required for traffic, but it's a bit of a waste of competent, and therefore hopefully relatively well paid, staff. There's bound to be resentment if the volunteers work the 'cream' in the busier and more sociable hours, leaving the rest for the paid staff.

And how do you maintain the competency for the number of staff that would be required? We've got 50 Signalmen to cover between around 8 and 12 turns each weekend, plus a further couple of turns each time there's a midweek daytime or evening service running. If we had to run an intensive service for upwards of 18 hours each day, we'd be looking at 6 turns per day minimum (and that's assuming that the volunteers are willing to work 9 hour turns regularly!), or 42 per week. We'd need getting on for 200 Signalmen to cover that reliably. It's bad enough arranging training and assessment for 50 volunteers, never mind more!

I think there's still a strong need for volunteers on 'community' railways - I'm sure it'd be easier to cover booking office opening hours, for example, or just generally look after the stations. In either case, the service can still run if a volunteer can't be found one day - and it might also avoid some of the worst of the unsociable hours. I don't think it'd ever be possible to operate a full public service from the early hours until late in the evening in that way though.
 

Metroland

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I'm not going to knock enthusiasts (maybe, because I am one ;) ) and I think they do an amazing job running heritage railways, turning out to give their time for free.

There's no real reason why some branch lines can't be run by enthusiasts, apart from a possible shortage of volunteer labour in some cases, although I reserve judgement on busy main lines with thousands of passengers, 3000 ton freight trains and 100mph plus trains every few minutes, running day and night, in all weathers. That's an entirely different operation to most preserved lines (Though I'm frequently in awe at many galas where 100s of trains are run over single lines).

I think the rail industry would benefit from more enthusiasts at all levels (in reality they are quite sparse in number - demonstrated by there are 170,000 railway related employees in the UK and very few are on this forum). Indeed, its not unknown for some staff to take the mickey out of others for showing an interest - which is pretty tragic. Some areas actively do not recruit enthusiasts, and consider them interfering know-alls, and you will do yourself no favours sticking down 'enthusiast' on your CV. There is, sadly, far to much 'don't care' inside the national network, if heritage railways operated like this they would quickly shut down.
 

yorkie

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Basicly just of how things would be if it was ran by enthusiasts
It already is run by enthusiasts, to quite an extent.:p

Actually only a very small proportion of enthusiasts are bothered about train horns IMO. The number that go jumping up and down on platforms getting all excited is quite small, and if you exclude under 18s then there's hardly any.

Many enthusiasts are intelligent and you would not know they were enthusiasts necessarily as they don't go making it obvious by getting over-excited.

The question is flawed. Quite apart from the fact that many high-up railway employees are enthusiasts, you could ask, what if the road network was run by car enthusiasts? Well, a boy racer and a vintage car owner are both car enthusiasts are they not? Yet would they run the road network in a similar way? I think not...

If the railway was run by bashers, everything would be loco hauled? Well no, you can't even say that, because 37 bashers prefer 156s to 47s, and vice-versa. I remember us getting a lot of stick off a certain 37 basher because we'd got a 47 to Kyle on a circular trip before getting the 37 from Fort William, instead of taking a 156 up for the 37.
 

starrymarkb

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Very true, saw a youtube clip where the commentary was talking about the angry and violent scenes when the 50 used for a 50 basher tour did what a 50 was prone to do and broke down and control supplied a 37 to assist :lol:
 

yorkie

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It would be a disaster.
Are you sure? Given that your MD is an enthusiast, you may wish to re-consider ;):lol:

I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever to suggest that enthusiasts are any worse at managing the railways than non-enthusiasts. If someone has the qualifications, the knowledge, the experience and communications skills for the job, then enthusiasm can only help.
 

theblackwatch

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It already is run by enthusiasts, to quite an extent.:p

Actually only a very small proportion of enthusiasts are bothered about train horns IMO. The number that go jumping up and down on platforms getting all excited is quite small, and if you exclude under 18s then there's hardly any.

Many enthusiasts are intelligent and you would not know they were enthusiasts necessarily as they don't go making it obvious by getting over-excited.

Some good points there. I mentioned in an earlier thread about three TOC Managing Directors. You don't see any of those three TOC's playing at trains and kicking out pairs of 37s or 55022 on a daily basis - they run their companies in professional manner.

Also agree with you on train horns. Until a year or two, I had never heard of anyone getting excited over them. Now, the hobby is full of the youtube generation who seem excited by the "nine-tone my lorrdddzzz the 158 blew its horn at me and I act like I am still at primary school" brigade.
 

Chester025

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Now, the hobby is full of the youtube generation who seem excited by the "nine-tone my lorrdddzzz the 158 blew its horn at me and I act like I am still at primary school" brigade.

Please, that is a bit harsh on the 9 year old school children.
 

37401

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Very true, saw a youtube clip where the commentary was talking about the angry and violent scenes when the 50 used for a 50 basher tour did what a 50 was prone to do and broke down and control supplied a 37 to assist :lol:

Having not looked at page 2 of this so I dont know if this has been said but they were bellowing at "Death", didnt seem like they were shouting noseped, pointy nose vermin ect ect
 

rail-britain

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Personally, I would reorganise what we already have (yes yet another one!)

The first step would be to re-establish the old regional setup, within Network Rail -
Scottish, Midland, Western, Eastern, Southern

The next step would be to re-align the current franchises to those regions
However, this presents issues as this may create franchises that are too large, therefore they would be split into at least two for each region; urban and inter-urban
This would create more competition and in turn lower fares

The main intercity routes that connect would be merged into a single franchise
It would be mandatory that these services are operated by loco hauled trains, pendolino style, or HSTs
Short distance services would be exempt and operated by Voyager (maximum journey time 2 hours)

Liveries would be consistent to the franchise, irrespective of the franchise holder

Expansion of early morning, late evening, and in some cases overnight train services, where there may be demand
Trial services would be encouraged

Encouragement to franchise holders to operate high frequency timetables rather than increasing train length, where the infrastructure allows
This then increases longer distance journey options, without the need to change trains or with less changes of trains
 

Aictos

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If I were to run anything, I would prefer to return to sectorisation ie have NSE and sub brands celebrating that's patch ie Great Northern, Thames Valley etc...I would keep the infrastructure chaps under a centralised management who knew how to manage, InterCity would see Cross Country maintained to the same level of care and attention as the East Coast, West Coast InterCitys with freight running as Freighliner, RES etc...

Overnight sleeper services would see further improvement ie more services covering wider part of the country, I would introduce a Plymouth to Aberdeen sleeper which would replace the daytime Cross Country service which would cascade the stock elsewherew to boost capacity where needed.

Besides although there's probably not many who do the whole trip, I believe there are alternatives available and as much as I would prefer to just keep it and put a HST on it, I can't see that happening.

Now I guess I probably get shot for wanting to kill off the service but the pain will be worth it in the long run - I might even see about trying for loco hauled on the Cross Country but in all seriousness, I rather see extra coaches inserted into the 220s and 221s.
 

atomicdanny

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The only problem I see is that you are going to have enthusiasts saying remove all of the "plastics" and have slam door stock / deltics / 37s run all the trains instead, but that wouldn't really help anyone, I myself don't like most of the newer trains but they do what they are supposed to do don't they? Its all good and well saying keep all of the older 30 - 40 year old stock but all of these trains won't last for ever even if they are well maintained. In my opinion what the UK needs the most, is a better rail service with more newer trains to cover most of the country with a lot more railways re-opening.

(and get rid of the pacers)
 

Aictos

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Stuff them! As you have pointed out, the older stock can't be ezpected to carry on forever I mean there's talk of a new fleet for Norwich to London as by 2020, the trains in use won't meet RVAR regulations.

So while I certainly will get rid of the Pacers, I will only replace them like for like with 172s, I mean the PEP class will need to be looked at as by then you would looking at 50 plus years usage and in need of replacement.

I would see more of the railway seeing improved services, by steamrolling improvements to remove bottlenecks, redoubling former double lines which got singled, electrification and probably scrapping HS2 until the rest of the network is brought up to a world standard and we can boast how great our railways are to the world!
 

rail-britain

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Overnight sleeper services would see further improvement ie more services covering wider part of the country, I would introduce a Plymouth to Aberdeen sleeper which would replace the daytime Cross Country service which would cascade the stock elsewherew to boost capacity where needed
I agree with the introduction of such a sleeper, but I would have to disagree with the withdrawal of the day service
I agree that not many people use it for journeys between Aberdeen / Dundee and Bristol / Penzance, but it offers more flexibility and removes the need to change trains, which ironically makes it a more attractive travelling option

Expanding on that
The Penzance - Paddington and Penzance - Aberdeen sleepers could be merged as far as Bristol, although this does leave a risk of delays southbound
The Penzance - Aberdeen and Euston - Aberdeen could also be merged between Edinburgh and Aberdeen
The main issue would be finding spare sleepers, or building new ones!
 

37401

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If I ran it I would re-open BREL, build a few more HSTs and replace 220/221/222s with them, id keep a few 222s because they are longer than 220/221s so they can carry more passengers but a few more HSTs wouldnt go amiss, they would have VP185s too not knocking the MTU but VP185s are nicer, I wouldnt fit them with valentas because as much as I like them they would just keep failing.

222s would go over to the Cross country services, the smaller sets would be used on routes such as Cardiff-Nottingham beacuse I dont think a 2 car 170 does the job well and ive been in standing class a few times on the train home, 4-5 car 222 would solve this and hopefully make the passengers happyer as they will have a shop serving food for them.

HSTs would do all the long distance runs on the XC, MML, ECML and WCML routes to places such as Holyhead and the odd one to Glasgow with a few diagrams doing BHM-EUS alongside 390s to free up 390s for the longer WCML runs.

Everything would be in EMT livery as its nice a bright and colourful only it will be called Intercity East Coast/West cost/Great Western/ Cross Country and Midland

I would also have a Penzance-Inverness sleeper via aberdeen, hauled by a 56 T+T
 
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I would restructure the railways so that they were like BR during sectorisation, design a standardised fleet of MK5 coaches and construct a set of units/locos that are all interchangable, so you could have a coach from unit A running a busy suburban commuter service in rush hour then doing a transpennine LHCS the next day (OK that is a bit extreme but the principle is the same).

if you have a passion for the railways you would do what is best for them, sure you may want claggy class 37s everywhere, but think, do the average pax really want to be smoked out in a boiling hot coach with no air conditioning in the middle of summer? no, they just want to get to their destination in relative comfort, I am a fan of modern traction, (IE brand new stuff) if I had the choice between a class 350 and loco hauled MK1 stock, I would go for the 350 because it just feels right
 
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