IEP & Thameslink

[WatcherZero]

They have mated a few of them to a couple of bodyshells for running tests on their test track, the rest of the bogies will have treadmill endurance testing in test rigs.

 

[Class377/5]

Is there any proof of this prototype existing? Last I heard they'd only built some prototype bogies?

Nothing confirmed but multiple sources have spoke about a prototype unit. When Siemens held an event recently it was believed to be a reveal of the prototype until Siemens were asked about it and stated nothing to be shown off until after sign off date. Which DfT says its 'summer' and Modern Railways says October. I'd got with the latter from the stuff I've heard.

 

[jon0844]

I imagine they are piling up the champagne bottles at Hitachi ready for celebrating winning such an absurdly generous cash cow of a contract.

Like G4S did when they won the security contract for the Olympics?

 

[WatcherZero]

Well its now official http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20120725a

£4.5bn
596 carriages in 92 sets diagrammed of 5 car (bi-mode, electric) and 9 car (electric)
730 jobs in factory in Newton Aycliffe including European Technology Development Center
200 jobs building factory
15 minute faster journey to Swansea and 21 minutes faster to Bristol from higher acceleration than 125's
Initial routes:
Great Western:
London – Cardiff – Swansea,
London – Oxford – Worcester – Hereford,
London – Gloucester – Cheltenham,
London – Bath – Bristol
East Coast:
London – Leeds,
London – York – Newcastle – Edinburgh – Aberdeen / Inverness


Future routes:
i.Great Western: London – Exeter – Penzance
ii.East Coast: Replacement of the newer Intercity 225 electric stock
iii.East Coast: London – Cambridge – Kings Lynn
iv.West Coast: London – Milton Keynes – Northampton

Fly through of train
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeddoFChmm8&feature=context-cha

And less impressive fly through of factory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ0B2Mv_CiE


Looks like a cross between the Class 390's and the 125's

edit:
Factory finished in 2015, production will begin in 2016 at a rate of 35 carriages a month, first delivery to Great Western in 2017 and East Coast in 2018. At that production rate it would take 17 months to complete the initial order.

 

[jopsuk]

The "Future routes" bit is actually stated as "•There are also options for ordering further trains, which could operate on the following routes:"
In other words it is entirely possible that other stock may be procured for those routes when replacement comes around; however no tendering process would be required (as I understand it) if the "options" were exercised.

Notably, no mention of the Midland Mainline or Great Eastern.

 

[150001]

The train certainly looks impressive; great looking exterior. Good to see over 900 jobs made as well! Just found their A train (http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rv/a_train/images/a-train.pdf) as well and I wouldn't rule this out for the replacement of 142 and 143 Pacers when it finally occurs.

 

[jon0844]

The train certainly looks impressive; great looking exterior. Good to see over 900 jobs made as well! Just found their A train (http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rv/a_train/images/a-train.pdf) as well and I wouldn't rule this out for the replacement of 142 and 143 Pacers when it finally occurs.

I think the Pacer replacement is here; http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1159930&postcount=1

From what I hear, existing users are already quite excited about the improved design and features.

Obviously there will be a few mods, like removing the tyres and number plate. I guess the indicators won't be needed either, as they're only needed by Virgin Train drivers.

 

[WatcherZero]

Announcement does not seem to have made the impact the Government hoped, looks to me (as a Politics graduate) that they held the announcement back to try and offset the bad news about the Olympic Lanes, however the train order hasnt made any inroad into the news headlines.

'Transport secretary, why are there all these empty lanes in London and extra congestion?' 'Ooh look ive just ordered some pretty trains'

 

[David10]

Notably, no mention of the Midland Mainline or Great Eastern.

Replacement of Mk 3 stock on GEML will be by standard EMU, no need for IEP. MML will either see Meridian's converted to bimode and HST replaced with EMUs or an entire new fleet bought and Meridian's cascaded to West of England services.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So where is the new East coast maintenance depot, i heard rumours of sheffield? Has it been confirmed? Seems to say here doncaster but i dont entirel trust what BBC say.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18979836

 

[sprinterguy]

So where is the new East coast maintenance depot, i heard rumours of sheffield? Has it been confirmed? Seems to say here doncaster but i dont entirel trust what BBC say.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18979836

It’ll be at Doncaster, as stated in the press release.

Does anyone know if the East Coast IEPs will make their way to and from Old Oak for maintenance alongside the Great Western ones? Much like the way the present Hull Trains and FGW 180 fleets receive maintenance at Old Oak Common.

 

[David10]

Does anyone know if the East Coast IEPs will make their way to and from Old Oak for maintenance alongside the Great Western ones?

I think all maintenance on East Coast's HSTs is done at Craigentinny and Neville Hill, so on the assumption IEPs are like for like replacements for the HSTs in theory won't be necessary. Of course diagrams are likely to change.

Recall that it was decided to relocate the Eurostar depot when HS1 opened because of congestion on the North London line.

I believe the former Eurostar depot at OOC going to be reactivated as the IEP depot.

 

[brianthegiant]

Cycle space on the IEP, is something I've been lobbying on, as I suspect have the CTC (cyclist touring club).

Interestingly, in the fly through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeddoFChmm8&feature=context-cha

I saw 2 adjacent lobbies with space for 4 cycles (albeit hanging).
If this is the plan, then it will be a significant cycle capacity improvement on the 2-cycle space we've seen on recent IC trains like 221/222 and pendos. (often overloaded & precludes reserving bikes for eg 3 people together).

Having them mid-train will avoid the hassle of getting the door unlocked (a la pendo). But I fear that with H&S etc concerns we'll end up with dividers between the bike space and the corridor, so we end up with a space with a nightmare to get 2 bikes into a la XC voyager, adding to dwell times & passenger stress. (not that dividers are deemed necesary on 158s nowadays..)

Also is it me or are they still holding off the final bi-mode:electrics ratio decision for now..

 

[150001]

There has been virtually nothing on the radio or TV about this important news! They focus on the bad news and leave this great news hidden. The HST have been excellent but they are getting on now and the new trains are going to create 900 jobs and mean a better travel experience. When will the Class 91 East Coast electrics be replaced? Loving the Pacer replacement by the way, seems pretty sturdy against damage!

 

[David10]

There has been virtually nothing on the radio or TV about this important news! They focus on the bad news and leave this great news hidden.

Well it is hardly news, just confirmation financial close has been reached on something previously announced.

 

[sprinterguy]

When will the Class 91 East Coast electrics be replaced?

Nothing has been agreed with regard to the replacement of the 225s with IEPs, it remains simply an option for the future. They would not be replaced before 2020 at the earliest.

 

[WatcherZero]

The options give the Government room to order more at short notice for the electrification projects, the plants in direct competition with Bombardier in Derby to win future domestic orders and Siemens for foreign orders. The plant will also be competing for European production orders with a technical center, something the Bombardier plant isnt doing (though has done small contributions to the design of classes manufactured abroad).

 

[Chris125]

There has been virtually nothing on the radio or TV about this important news! They focus on the bad news and leave this great news hidden.

Great news? IEP might be a shiny new train but its the wrong shiny new train - a PFI deal is bad enough but the bi-mode concept and expensive gauging works required for 26m carriages adds unneccesary costs to an industry being asked to become more efficient, and at odds with the DfT's change of heart regarding electrification.

Chris

 

[jopsuk]

The gossip going around would indicate that the trains are not those at all wanted by most in the industry who might normally make such descions- senior personnel at TOCs and their parent groups. They're not happy about the trains, and they're not happy about the structure of the deal. Obviously the existing ROSCOS aren't happy either- with this, Thameslink and Crossrial they're rather shut out of the deals- but they they're parasitic scum anyway. ahem.

There's apparently been very little support for the deal for a long time now outside of the Department of Transport.

 

[WatcherZero]

They switched Crossrail back to Government financing from Private Financing some months ago.

 

[Class377/5]

They switched Crossrail back to Government financing from Private Financing some months ago.

No they didn't. They allowed TfL to borrow £350m towards the complete £1bn cost of the new fleet. 35% is hardly switching but way to keep TfL quiet after it raised some valid points over more private funding costing more.

 

[Pen Mill]

but the bi-mode concept
Chris

A railway system which is frequently perceived as "better" than the British one , IE SNCF has recenlty introduced 326 bi-mode units onto their network. Not only that , approaching half of them are bi-mode bi current so I'm not sure why this is objected to by the Brits , surely it's a filler position ?

 

[LE Greys]

A railway system which is frequently perceived as "better" than the British one , IE SNCF has recenlty introduced 326 bi-mode units onto their network. Not only that , approaching half of them are bi-mode bi current so I'm not sure why this is objected to by the Brits , surely it's a filler position ?

That perception may not necessarily be accurate. My abiding memory of the French railway system, apart from TGVs and suburban networks, is of BB15000s hauling 1970s-vintage coaches with opening windows, the rough equivalent of 87s and MkIIc's. They were decidedly infrequent (and probably still are) and a bit slow. Whilst it was interesting from an enthusiast's point of view, it looked rather anachronistic and I'm quite glad they are modernising the routes. If they are using EDMUs (to me 'bi-mode' is an annoying American term) then they surely have their reasons.

Back on the subject of IEP and Thameslink, it will be interesting to see how they interface with one another. As it happens, I will get to see it, and will probably get to know it very well. IEP isn't exactly how I would have designed it, but it's only really fair to give it a try when the thing turns up. One hopes that the point of contact (passenger comfort, internal space, ride and available catering as well as speed) will be at least as good as the current stock. I shall do my best to find out when they come into service.

 

[starrymarkb]

A railway system which is frequently perceived as "better" than the British one , IE SNCF has recenlty introduced 326 bi-mode units onto their network. Not only that , approaching half of them are bi-mode bi current so I'm not sure why this is objected to by the Brits , surely it's a filler position ?

The AGC is a rather different beast, firstly it's a light regional unit with a top speed of 100mph AC/DC and about 80mph on Diesel. Its basically equivalent to a Sprinter.

 

[tbtc]

I think all maintenance on East Coast's HSTs is done at Craigentinny and Neville Hill, so on the assumption IEPs are like for like replacements for the HSTs in theory won't be necessary. Of course diagrams are likely to change

If the maintenance for East Coast moves from Leeds (Neville Hill) to Doncaster (purpose built depot for new stock, like the TPE depot at York) then that would free up a bit of space at Neville Hill (alongside the expected loss of the maintenance for EMT sets, due to MML electrification not reaching Leeds).

This could see the dozen (or so) "South Yorkshire" Northern DMUs that are officially looked after in Newcastle (Heaton) moved to Leeds (on paper)?

 

[IanXC]

If the maintenance for East Coast moves from Leeds (Neville Hill) to Doncaster (purpose built depot for new stock, like the TPE depot at York) then that would free up a bit of space at Neville Hill (alongside the expected loss of the maintenance for EMT sets, due to MML electrification not reaching Leeds).

This could see the dozen (or so) "South Yorkshire" Northern DMUs that are officially looked after in Newcastle (Heaton) moved to Leeds (on paper)?

Neville Hill could also be looking at loosing some of its DMU fleet, if the far eastern part of the Northern franchise is split off (as per a proposal in the EC consultation), with the stock potentially being allocated to Heaton or another depot created/restored to use. Plus of course if the 'rump' Northern franchise looses Newcastle services then the "South Yorkshire" DMUs would have to move to another depot.

What does seem to be clear is that even with the expected stock additions to Neville Hill from electrification and further strengthening expansion of the existing depot, or a new depot (like Allerton in the West) is looking like it will not be required.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The gossip going around would indicate that the trains are not those at all wanted by most in the industry who might normally make such descions- senior personnel at TOCs and their parent groups. They're not happy about the trains, and they're not happy about the structure of the deal. Obviously the existing ROSCOS aren't happy either- with this, Thameslink and Crossrial they're rather shut out of the deals- but they they're parasitic scum anyway. ahem.

There's apparently been very little support for the deal for a long time now outside of the Department of Transport.

It's too late, they have been ordered.
The TOCs (it may not be the current franchisees who have to operate them) have to take what is specified.
The ROSCOs had every chance to bid and failed.
I'm not sure I like them either, but now they just have to work.
In the end it was probably UK assembly which tilted the stakes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Neville hill will soon need place for more EMUS and DMUS as WYPTE try to extend their trains.
Maybe sheffield could do with a bigger depot, and i think brightside has a perfect bit of railway land to do it on...

 

[sprinterguy]

Neville hill will soon need place for more EMUS and DMUS as WYPTE try to extend their trains.
Maybe sheffield could do with a bigger depot, and i think brightside has a perfect bit of railway land to do it on...

As Northern already has a well established and logical stabling and maintenance facility at Sheffield, I am certainly inclined to agree with you that it would be a good place to build a larger depot if Northerns’ East side gains a greater quantity of rolling stock. There is definitely enough vacant railway land at the likes of Brightside to allow it.

If the local lines around Leeds and South Yorkshire are ever wired up in their entirety, as a side product of MML and Transpennine electrification, with wiring of all the little bits in-between as a follow up, then I’m of the opinion that Healey Mills would make a good location for an EMU depot.

 

[jon0844]

We've had a bit of a rollercoaster ride on whether IEP is good or not, but besides the supposed disappointment of what they'll look like, are they really such a bad thing for the public?

The important thing now is the interior layout of the trains, so it's not all beyond hope just yet. I'm sure the interior on the video isn't final.