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IEP postponed

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Pumbaa

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Originally earmarked for the York stoppers, now being done by 180s. NXEC had dibs on them, so they couldn't be used by anyone else. Now they're gone, Adonis wasn't too keen on 30 odd Mk3s sitting around doing nowt, so he's sending them North!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh - yes, WatcherZero is correct in that the announcement will be next month, GMITA indicating that it will "be within the next few weeks".
 
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route:oxford

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...and what with?

I thought DFT didn't want slow 90s hauling them?

Well, I was going to suggest that there are around five Class 55s that are mainline ready and available for spot hire...

30 MkIIIs available, 5 locos, and plenty of spare buffets...

Sadly a quick check revealed that a 55 has a top speed of 100mph whilst a 90 can manage 110mph.

:(
 

tbtc

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Well, I was going to suggest that there are around five Class 55s that are mainline ready and available for spot hire...

30 MkIIIs available, 5 locos, and plenty of spare buffets...

Sadly a quick check revealed that a 55 has a top speed of 100mph whilst a 90 can manage 110mph.

:(

I think that'd be perfect for the Midland Mainline - send some HSTs to the ECML instead :lol:
 

Daimler

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The Voyager every time. I find them much more comfortable, and I don't find the noise or vibrations at all intrusive. When I was last on one, I barely noticed them.

Seriously? Having travelled on one today, the difference - at least to my mind - in the noise and vibration from when the engine was under load and when it was at idle was, to put it mildly, marked. I've never travelled on one for more than around 35 minutes (mercifully) but even after that relatively brief amount of time I find it quite tiresome.

As for comfort, am I alone in finding that the seats on the Voyagers have a most irritating 'ridge' at the end of the squab, digging into the underside of your thighs. That is, of course, if you're lucky enough to get a seat on the ghastly things.

Anyway, about IEP, good news all round! It was about time this happened. As others have said, let's hope it gets quietly swept under the carpet after the election, and a more sensible plan is adopted.

I appreciate I'll be lambasted as a wearer of those infamous 'rose-tinted spectacles', but what's wrong with just replacing the 43s with new electric locomotives and keeping the (let's be honest perfectly adequate) Mk3s for some years yet, replacing them with a new type of coach that can operate with the 'electric 43s' as and when it is needed at some point in the future.

Cheap, and we get those electric trains that everyone wants!

Of course, I appreciate that this may lead to issues when diesel power is needed, but why not get DVTs back on one end of the Mk3s (you could even use de-engined 43s) and new electric locos at the other, changing to diesel wherever the wires end - fit the non-DVT end of the set of coaches with a Dellner coupler and it shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
 

90019

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Seriously? Having travelled on one today, the difference - at least to my mind - in the noise and vibration from when the engine was under load and when it was at idle was, to put it mildly, marked. I've never travelled on one for more than around 35 minutes (mercifully) but even after that relatively brief amount of time I find it quite tiresome.

Well, having spent 3 journeys of over 5 hours each on them a few months back, I really enjoyed them all. On one, I had a view of a pillar, but it didn't matter, beause I just did something else.
Yes, I do like to be able to watch what's passing, but if I get a pillar, it's really not a big deal, it's not going to kill me and I still get from A to B.

As for comfort, am I alone in finding that the seats on the Voyagers have a most irritating 'ridge' at the end of the squab, digging into the underside of your thighs. That is, of course, if you're lucky enough to get a seat on the ghastly things.

I really like the voyager style seats, as they actually provide good support (unlike the older seats in some Mk3s which give me a sore back <()
 

Daimler

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Yes, I do like to be able to watch what's passing, but if I get a pillar, it's really not a big deal, it's not going to kill me and I still get from A to B.

For me, looking out of the window is one of the main pleasures of train travel - and to be sat next to a pillar due to poor design is unforgivable. For 100 years, we were able to design trains where everyone could see out. Suddenly we can't!

I really like the voyager style seats, as they actually provide good support (unlike the older seats in some Mk3s which give me a sore back <()

Maybe it's just me then...:(

I have to say though, having travelled on WSMR today (in one of their entirely unrefurbished coaches), I adore IC70 seats - proper comfort! :D
 

starrymarkb

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TBH seats are subjective, I can't bear IC70s or Mallard seats, but find Voyager, 158 and FGW HST seats comfortable, others vice versa.

Just remember that your Opinion is not fact
 

jon0844

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Seeing as we're concluding that faster speeds doesn't equal much of a saving, and that extra speed costs a LOT of money in energy terms, I guess that until we have HS2 perhaps we stop looking to increase speeds beyond 125-140mph.

I have reservations about the safety of Mk3 coaches, and the doors are an obvious problem in this day and age. The Mk4s seem fine though.

Can't we just keep the same idea as we have now, with using the existing Mk4s and building more 'Mk5's, then throw on an electric OR diesel loco at the front/back as required? These will be interchangeable, as someone will agree on a standard protocol for the electrical/braking/computer systems or whatever.

It's the loco on the front that will be able to be more energy efficient, support modern signalling and so on - the coaches behind will be relatively 'dumb' and cheap to build - but last for years (and have a reference design that allows more to be built as and when). This means a train upgrade can be done in stages, not as an all-new build with loads of trains being scrapped or cascaded.

If this happened and say one ROSCO built them all, couldn't you then very easily build sets for any TOC and move them around freely? Just imagine if TOCs weren't allowed to cover trains with their painted colours and liveries and you had one single InterCity branding, but 'Operated by First' in smaller stuck-on logos? It would be easy to move trains around to meet demand.

Am I just dreaming or would anyone in power ever see this is a simple, logical, solution without a huge cost? For Inter-city travel, the needs are somewhat different to building trains on busy commuter routes - where you can argue that you need specific stock for the job.
 

Daimler

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Am I just dreaming or would anyone in power ever see this is a simple, logical, solution without a huge cost? For Inter-city travel, the needs are somewhat different to building trains on busy commuter routes - where you can argue that you need specific stock for the job.

I think you're dreaming. It's far too simple and logical a solution. :lol:
 

tbtc

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It's the loco on the front that will be able to be more energy efficient, support modern signalling and so on - the coaches behind will be relatively 'dumb' and cheap to build - but last for years (and have a reference design that allows more to be built as and when). This means a train upgrade can be done in stages, not as an all-new build with loads of trains being scrapped or cascaded

Makes too much sense!

Whilst I'm not bothered by liveries etc, I think we're in danger of throwing the baby out wit the bathwater when replacing one set of trains for another brand
new set of trains - where we get a couple of years of things going wrong/ teething problems.

A much better solution would be to replace bits at a time.

Look at it another way - you may need a new monitor for your computer, but you don't necessarily need a new mouse at the same time, or a new operating system. You don't have to buy new furniture at the same time as painting the walls and getting new carpets. A lot of businesses cope with minor upgrades slowly, which is a lot less disruptive than one MASSIVE change.
 

ChrisCooper

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I don't see why supporters of loco haulage are seen as having "rose tinted spectacles" and that units are the only way forward. It's not like anyone is suggesting bringing back 47s and 86s hauling Mk2s, we're talking about a new generation of diesel and electric locos hauling a new generation of coaches.
From the point of view of the passengers, the coaches will be the same as units, in fact my idea would use the "Mk5" coach design for units too. They would be a modular construction allowing various configuration and customisation, as well as easy repairs and changes throughout their lives.

Basically I would build a new generation of coaching stock capable of 140mph. If we want to be really radical, these could be articulated sets (for flexability I would probably avoid full length articulation, but have a "standard" length train formed of say 4 articulated sets, standard being roughly the length of a HST or Mk4 set). There would be two types of Driving Trailer, a 125/140mph capable streamlined on, and a 110mph capable gangwayed one. Like the coaches, these would be on the surface no different to MU driving coaches beyond minor details. As much as possible of the work would be done in the UK, from design through to assembly, only buying "foreign" componants when needed (and even then if possible having final assembly in the UK, if not licenced construction).

To haul these there would be two types of loco, a 125/140mph electric and a 100-125mph diesel. These would likely be based on a foreign design, but again as much work as possible should take place in the UK. Take the "Warships" as an example, built in Britain but licenced from a German design. The electric locos would have sufficient power to give good performance, although on fairly limited stop work Desiro performance would not be needed. The diesels would be much lower powered, but would be geared to balence top speed with acceleration on the particular duties they would normally perform. The coaches they would be hauling would be lighter weight than the EMU some others would have them haul. On any routes which required considerable high speed diesel running, the locos could be used top and tail, HST like. Both the electric and diesel locos would be lightweight, with bogie design to keep track forces to a minimum. Depending on duties, the diesels may be ballasted to provide extra traction.

Operationally, the Electric locos would run push-pull with a driving trailer. On routes where the service continued off the wires the loco would be at the London end. On arrival at the last wired station the Diesel loco would be waiting in the platform and the DT would be driven up to it and coupled. Depending on the requirements, the train may be split with the diesel taking just part forward, or the full set, minus the electric loco. On the return, the diesel would propel with another DT leading. On trains which split, this would be one of the gangwayed DTs. Now, if we're talking new ideas, this is based on the 1960s solutions to the same problem on the London to Weymouth line. Hardly cutting edge, but then as I keep pointing out, Multiple units have been around since the 18th century.
 

jon0844

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EU rules would stop you being able to guarantee UK construction and lock everyone else out, but you can still request a certain specification that could possibly make other companies drop out of the bidding process.

We are in Europe and can't just decide to protect UK interests any more.
 

ChrisCooper

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It can't be that hard, afterall I can't see Siemens or Hitachi building the next generation TGV any more than Alstom or Hitachi building the next generation ICE. If the French and Germans can find ways around EU laws to protect their own interests i'm sure we can.
 
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Seeing as we're concluding that faster speeds doesn't equal much of a saving, and that extra speed costs a LOT of money in energy terms, I guess that until we have HS2 perhaps we stop looking to increase speeds beyond 125-140mph.

I have reservations about the safety of Mk3 coaches, and the doors are an obvious problem in this day and age. The Mk4s seem fine though.

Can't we just keep the same idea as we have now, with using the existing Mk4s and building more 'Mk5's, then throw on an electric OR diesel loco at the front/back as required? These will be interchangeable, as someone will agree on a standard protocol for the electrical/braking/computer systems or whatever.

It's the loco on the front that will be able to be more energy efficient, support modern signalling and so on - the coaches behind will be relatively 'dumb' and cheap to build - but last for years (and have a reference design that allows more to be built as and when). This means a train upgrade can be done in stages, not as an all-new build with loads of trains being scrapped or cascaded.

If this happened and say one ROSCO built them all, couldn't you then very easily build sets for any TOC and move them around freely? Just imagine if TOCs weren't allowed to cover trains with their painted colours and liveries and you had one single InterCity branding, but 'Operated by First' in smaller stuck-on logos? It would be easy to move trains around to meet demand.

Am I just dreaming or would anyone in power ever see this is a simple, logical, solution without a huge cost? For Inter-city travel, the needs are somewhat different to building trains on busy commuter routes - where you can argue that you need specific stock for the job.

This man speaks sense, which is why it will never happen.

Too many vested interests and palms greased so that each time a new fleet of trains is required they have to re-invent the wheel.

Just build simple, dumb coaches with seats in them (some around tables) and have nice big windows. You can have plug-doors that won't open whilst on the move and you can even build-in accessible toilets because the trains will be 11 or 12 coaches long. As a radical departure, you might think about where the passengers will put their luggage, so design some luggage-sized cubby holes at each end of every coach.

Stick a big electric loco (or a big diesel if necessary) on one end with two (or three) six-wheeled bogies to keep the track loading down and put a DVT on the other end. Simples!

This could all be done with existing technology and using off-the peg motive power (more-or-less) Perhaps they could give it a snappy name, I like "High Speed Train."
 

Lampshade

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Personally I think units are the way forward, as much as I like the HSTs/225s.

This opportunity should be taken to make new trains articulated, much like the APT and with power cars at each end - but powerful enough to provide good acceleration (I'm thinking 323-esque on a 14 car intercity unit).

For diesel, lessons should already have been learned that engines under the floor of every carriage is not the answer. Last time I travelled on a 221 I was fortunate enough to sit at the opposite end of the carriage to the engine, it's like sitting on a washing machine otherwise.
 

jon0844

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If the French and Germans can find ways around EU laws to protect their own interests i'm sure we can.

I am sure we can too.. Many EU member states flout the rules, but we seem to be the ones that abide by them - or get caught out!

By law, any EU member can bid for any tender - even if it's pretty obvious that they can't actually do the work. My parents put out contracts for heating maintenance on housing association properties, and you'll get companies bidding from abroad that have NO service engineers here at all.

If they won (and they do bid low prices), then they'd look to hire or sub-contract the work to other people, which means the terms have to be set that they must have a base here, their own staff or whatever.

You could stipulate that the train builder must be on-site here, be able to make parts here or something like that. You'd need a good legal team to work out the T&Cs, but I am sure it's possible - but you can't just go out and only invite UK companies (if there are any) to do the work.

This opportunity should be taken to make new trains articulated, much like the APT and with power cars at each end - but powerful enough to provide good acceleration (I'm thinking 323-esque on a 14 car intercity unit).

If you have separate interchangeable power cars, presumably you can now configure these to suit the needs on different routes too - so some are built for fast acceleration, while others for a faster top-end. Just think how dynamic the sets would, or could, be!
 

Pumbaa

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I don't see why supporters of loco haulage are seen as having "rose tinted spectacles" and that units are the only way forward. It's not like anyone is suggesting bringing back 47s and 86s hauling Mk2s, we're talking about a new generation of diesel and electric locos hauling a new generation of coaches.
From the point of view of the passengers, the coaches will be the same as units, in fact my idea would use the "Mk5" coach design for units too. They would be a modular construction allowing various configuration and customisation, as well as easy repairs and changes throughout their lives.

To haul these there would be two types of loco, a 125/140mph electric and a 100-125mph diesel. These would likely be based on a foreign design, but again as much work as possible should take place in the UK. Take the "Warships" as an example, built in Britain but licenced from a German design. The electric locos would have sufficient power to give good performance, although on fairly limited stop work Desiro performance would not be needed. The diesels would be much lower powered, but would be geared to balence top speed with acceleration on the particular duties they would normally perform. The coaches they would be hauling would be lighter weight than the EMU some others would have them haul. On any routes which required considerable high speed diesel running, the locos could be used top and tail, HST like. Both the electric and diesel locos would be lightweight, with bogie design to keep track forces to a minimum. Depending on duties, the diesels may be ballasted to provide extra traction.

Operationally, the Electric locos would run push-pull with a driving trailer. On routes where the service continued off the wires the loco would be at the London end. On arrival at the last wired station the Diesel loco would be waiting in the platform and the DT would be driven up to it and coupled. Depending on the requirements, the train may be split with the diesel taking just part forward, or the full set, minus the electric loco. On the return, the diesel would propel with another DT leading. On trains which split, this would be one of the gangwayed DTs. Now, if we're talking new ideas, this is based on the 1960s solutions to the same problem on the London to Weymouth line. Hardly cutting edge, but then as I keep pointing out, Multiple units have been around since the 18th century.

I'm using Chris' post to reply to, but it's directed at those who advocate similar logic as well. It's all very well thinking this, but the numbers simply do not add up.

If loco-hauled sets were a better option than MUs, operators all over the world have gone down that route rather than MUs. But they haven't, MUs are cheaper, more reliable and distributed power is the way forward. There is no sense in having all your eggs in one or two power packs, when if you can have them in five and still run through potential problems, you're clearly onto a winner. Plus it uses space that would be otherwise wasted for engine rooms etc.

The next generation replacements, whether it be IEP or not, will be MUs. Future rolling stock ordered on the Continent will be MU. China, Russia, Finland, Timbuktu, everywhere. In the eyes of operation, MUs win hands down every time; the only downside is the lack of flexibility for short notice.

Besides, they can easily be part of a modular design family - like the Mk3 modular design which gave 317, 319, 320, 321, 322, Mk3, 150, 156.
 

jon0844

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Having multiple engines as a way of crawling in the event of a problem is a big advantage, I'll give you that - but how many trains run in 'limp mode' before they have to be pulled out of service anyway (because they'll fall so far behind and hold up many other services).

I've been on trains at half power, and they've lost 15 minutes late on a 30 minute journey! Imagine covering a much longer distance - it would be a nightmare.

As for being cheaper; why are they cheaper? Surely there's a lot more maintenance required, as well as the issue of an entire train out of use while there's a repair - as against a new engine thrown on the front/back? How are the costs calculated? A simple cost-to-build or all of the likely costs during its lifetime?

I won't disagree that we'll probably go the way of every other operator around the world, but that doesn't make it the right way to go. I can see why these trains are favoured purely on the cost of construction, which might please accountants but does that make it right?

Bear in mind, I'm talking about long distance services, not how we might have 'normal' rolling stock for suburban routes. There, MUs are indeed the right tools for the job.
 

Pumbaa

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Cheaper because designs are already firmly established with well developed supply lines, firms have bought up key components of the production line with a lot of the finished product being effectively from the same place. Cheaper maintenance again from the pure scale factor to be achieved from having such commonality between components.

I'd wager a hefty bet that the relative maintenance cost of a 222 with EMT is lower than than that of an HST! Unfortunately, such data is not available!
 

jon0844

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An HST is ancient. If every Intercity route was using the same coaches and a few different engine configurations, economy of scale would apply there too.

It would need to be a national project, not just one individual TOC. You'd be talking about quite a big construction project - and if it was to be done in the UK, a good way of securing work for a long time.
 

Chafford1

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I appreciate I'll be lambasted as a wearer of those infamous 'rose-tinted spectacles', but what's wrong with just replacing the 43s with new electric locomotives and keeping the (let's be honest perfectly adequate) Mk3s for some years yet, replacing them with a new type of coach that can operate with the 'electric 43s' as and when it is needed at some point in the future.

Cheap, and we get those electric trains that everyone wants!

Of course, I appreciate that this may lead to issues when diesel power is needed, but why not get DVTs back on one end of the Mk3s (you could even use de-engined 43s) and new electric locos at the other, changing to diesel wherever the wires end - fit the non-DVT end of the set of coaches with a Dellner coupler and it shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

Interesting that Roger Ford makes exactly the same suggestion in March's Modern Railways - the Mk3s can be completely overhauled with power doors and retention toilets as Chiltern are trialling with one of their Mk3s.
 

Daimler

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If loco-hauled sets were a better option than MUs, operators all over the world have gone down that route rather than MUs. But they haven't, MUs are cheaper, more reliable and distributed power is the way forward. There is no sense in having all your eggs in one or two power packs, when if you can have them in five and still run through potential problems, you're clearly onto a winner. Plus it uses space that would be otherwise wasted for engine rooms etc.

Multiple units may be a smart move when it comes to pure electric power, and some might argue that they make sense also when diesel powered (personally, I think that a DMU is inadequate for intercity services - the NVH levels of underfloor engines make it a less than ideal solution).

However, when it comes to changing power source midway through a journey, they aren't so good, especially if we're talking a 'high-speed' train. You've either got to lug a heavy diesel unit around under the wires or a load of heavy electrical equipment around when there are no wires. It is an illogical waste of resources to do this, particularly when changing engines is so easy! As for reliability, while I agree that once underway a unit offers better reliability, as it can (more often than not) limp to its destination, the LHCS option has its own advantages - if a unit won't get moving at the beginning of the day, the train is cancelled. With LHCS, you simply get another locomotive out. Equally, if one coach is a problem, it can be removed - again, impossible in practical terms with a unit.

With regard to wasted space, as Ian Walmsley repeatedly points out, why can't the loco just be off the end of the platform?
 

MCR247

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Would it be possible to have a 225 style train, but with a loco that can be diesel and electric
 

Daimler

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Usually because of the signalling.

I thought about that - but how often are signals at the end of the usable section of platform? Usually (at least, where I've seen) they're down at the end of the ramp, at the earliest - if not further away, meaning that at least half of the locomotive, I'd say, could be off the end. (That is, of course, if trains can go right up to the signal before 'tripping' it - I wonder if any drivers could enlighten us?)

It is a valid point, of course, but in the majority of cases I can think of, shouldn't cause a problem.
 
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