IEP for beginners

[AndyLandy]

Wow it's interesting how you can see into the future and tell us how "uncomfortable" this train will be. For example seats could be used which are comfortable and dispute seeing floor plans of the trains they are subject to a lot of change as its DaFT lead

We being whom? You or just a generalized comment?

Again generalized. They've had their day of transforming BR but they have now become outdated by newer trains. They are sound locomotives but as with everything it is time to look into a replacement. No one has been able to prove to me how bad IEP is going to be. All I have seen is how expensive it is. If cost saving measures can be made we will end with a quality unit living hopefully as long as their predecessors. But when I have people telling me that they will be uncomfortable, really give it a chance :roll:

The hypothetical "we" in my summary are the anti-IEP brigate, I was simply enumerating the usual responses, not making any claims myself. I have reservations about IEP, but on the whole, I do believe we need some form of new Intercity Express train.

 

[Dave1987]

So you don't think any new diesel traction should built, except if they're locomotives. :roll:

Hitachi state the bi-modes can be converted to EMUs if required, however if you purchase a fleet of diesel locomotives they will be totally redundant if/when the wires do reach places like Inverness and Aberdeen.

Sorry but if Hitachi build bi-mode trains apart from hauling a huge amount of dead weight around, what happens to the Diesel engine on the bi-modes when the wires are fully up? It gets taken out but then what? At least if you attach a loco to an electric train at the end of the wires then you are not wasting energy transporting a dead heavy engine under the wires and the loco can be used for other purposes like freight in the future.

 

[455driver]

Dave this is a thread about the IEP, please dont try using common sense in it!

 

[Dave1987]

Dave this is a thread about the IEP, please dont try using common sense in it!

LOL my sincerest apologies, I will make sure I remember that!

 

[DarloRich]

My view, based on all the evidence and my gut felling is that it will be a horrible sub voyager clone not fit for long distance travel. It will be a horribly uncomfortable place to have to be for any length of time. It will be even more so when the diesels start up.

I envisage a horrible Voyager style body with Desiro style seating. God forbid they use the same perverted monsters that created the seats for Voyager and Pendolino!

The simple rule for the designers and procurement people should be:

Does this train improve on the standards set by 40 year old rolling stock? If not have another go.

 

[Bridge189]

Here.

That looks like the kitchen at the back of First class and the buffet at the south end of the STD driving motor coach. I personally would have stuck the bar in between F and STD as that half and half coach will be a nightmare to patrol!

 

[tbtc]

Sorry but if Hitachi build bi-mode trains apart from hauling a huge amount of dead weight around, what happens to the Diesel engine on the bi-modes when the wires are fully up? It gets taken out but then what? At least if you attach a loco to an electric train at the end of the wires then you are not wasting energy transporting a dead heavy engine under the wires and the loco can be used for other purposes like freight in the future.

When is the line to Inverness/ Carmerthen/ Harrogate/ Hereford getting electrified?

Supposedly you can either take out the diesel engines or can use any further electrification to put new Electric IEPs onto newly electrified lines (if/when we get further electrification) and put the bi-modes on routes like XC.

 

[Chris125]

All I have seen is how expensive it is. If cost saving measures can be made we will end with a quality unit living hopefully as long as their predecessors.

As i've already said that isn't the point - it could well be a quality unit that lasts 40 years+ but that doesn't mean there aren't better, cheaper alternatives and no 'cost saving measures' are going to address the fundamental design philosophy, nor the way it's being funded through a PFI.

Chris

 

[aylesbury]

When is the first prototype going to hit the rails ? It will be interesting to see the specification for the interiors and if they are actualy passenger friendly or they will be crammed full of seats only fit for pigmies.

 

[anthony263]

When is the first prototype going to hit the rails ? It will be interesting to see the specification for the interiors and if they are actualy passenger friendly or they will be crammed full of seats only fit for pigmies.

I wish they would put together a mock up like siemens did before they introduced the class 380's

 

[HSTEd]

I still think the best way to go about flexible multiple unit formations is to fit every vehicle with traction motors (either two or four depending) and a transformer suitable to supply all the power demands of that vehicle.

This reduces the number of cables between carriages to just the multiple working jumpers and the 25kV bus line.

When being hauled the end vehicle could up convert from the ETS voltage to 25kV by running the transformer in reverse (as the traction capability of the driving car is probably bigger than the entire ETS demand of the train).

 

[Harbon 1]

I wish they would put together a mock up like siemens did before they introduced the class 380's

I 2nd that!

 

[RobShipway]

I 2nd that!

I agree that there should be a mock up as well, then that would stop some of the doubt that is being seen within this thread.

 

[Bridge189]

I know EC are still looking at another EMT set to gie them a bit more flexibility. Are the NOL eurostar sets not supose to be coming off lease from SNCF this year too? Maybe that could be looked into short term.

 

[D365]

I know EC are still looking at another EMT set to gie them a bit more flexibility. Are the NOL eurostar sets not supose to be coming off lease from SNCF this year too? Maybe that could be looked into short term.

And that relates to this discussion how? I remember hearing this a while ago...

 

[RichmondCommu]

A couple of points.

Firstly, Edinburgh Waverley. As I recall, there's plenty of space at the EAST end of the station for a suitable loco to stable, then in the 5-10 minutes that through trains to Aberdeen or Inverness stop there anyway, to attach to the rear of northbound/detach from the front of southbound services. Furthermore, as such a locomotive would be (presumably) a diesel electric it ought to be possible to supply electrickery to the motors on the EMU from the loco and thus get the benefits of distributed traction.

First of all, where is this "plenty of space"?

Secondly, given how busy Edinburgh Waverley is how are you going to find room in the timetable for light engine movements?
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At least if you attach a loco to an electric train at the end of the wires then you are not wasting energy transporting a dead heavy engine under the wires and the loco can be used for other purposes like freight in the future.

And lets face it Dave we're crying out for diesel loco's in this country :roll:

 

[The Ham]

There are a few points that need to be pointed out-

Loco's and DVT take up platform length, so to obtain the same capacity from a train which is loco hauled all the main stations need to be lengthened to accommodate the extra length. Compare this to IEP needing works to be cleared on tight bends, much of which can be done or has been done when signals are replaced and gauge clearance works for freight is undertaken. As such to build and run a loco hauled train with the same capacity as an IEP is likely to cost more.

Cost comparisons per vehicle of a Class 390 and an IEP per vehicle are not comparing like with like. An 11 coach 390 has a capacity of 589 seats, whilst a 9 coach IEP has a capacity of 627. This then means that less IEP coaches are needed compared to 390 coaches (about 1/3), so assuming that each coach cost double the cost per seat is not, it is closer to 1.55 times the cost. If you work it backwards for the cost per seat to be the same the IEP coaches can cost 1.3 times that of the 390 coachs.

The length of an 11 coach 390 is 253m whilst a 9 coach IEP is 234m, meaning that by lengthening each station by just 7m more than would be needed for an 11 coach 390 it would enable a 10 coach IEP to call there. Which could mean that in the future the electric 9 coach IEP's could be lengthened to 10 coaches at a fairly low infrastructure cost (similar to the 11 coach lengthening of the 390 which has just happened). This would further increase capacity of the IEP's over and above the 390's, with a very minimal infrastructure cost, whilst to just to get up to 12 coaches 390s would cost a lot and would only put it a little ahead of the 9 coach IEP in terms of capacity.

The problem with buying diesel loco's is that it is likely that electrification will continue to spread, meaning a smaller and smaller network that they are suitable to run on, meaning that some could be redundant before they reach their 30th birthday, as well as needing to keep buying electric locos to cover each new part of the network that gets wired up.

Therefore bi-modal has it's uses when there is a program of extending the electrification of the network. For instance, what happens when a length of line gets electrified from a major station where a loco swap occurs because the local services justify electrifying the line? Do the IC trains then have to start stopping at some random station or do you run diesel trains under the wires for no reason? It also means that only long distances of electrification will benefit the IC services, rather than being able to wire up lengths as there is time/money/resources.

I can see that there are a lot of risks with IEP, however I think that they are often overplayed by those that don't like/want them for whatever reason. Likewise there would be a lot of risks (and probably a fair amount of objection) with using a train that is already being used on the UK rail network.

 

[Dave1987]

What would happen to the Diesel engines of the bi-mode trains once the wires are all up? They would be removed and probably scrapped, ie a total waste of money designing and building bi-mode trains!!

 

[Manchester77]

They could be reused in DMUs whereas in locomotives the engines are bigger

 

[Dave1987]

Loco's and DVT take up platform length, so to obtain the same capacity from a train which is loco hauled all the main stations need to be lengthened to accommodate the extra length. Compare this to IEP needing works to be cleared on tight bends, much of which can be done or has been done when signals are replaced and gauge clearance works for freight is undertaken. As such to build and run a loco hauled train with the same capacity as an IEP is likely to cost more.

Sorry but only passenger doors need to be in the platform. That's why HST power cars can be off the end of the platform.
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They could be reused in DMUs whereas in locomotives the engines are bigger

So they are going to be designed to be retrofitted to other dmus?? Excuse me if I'm a little sceptical about that.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think the main oposition to IEP is cost. Has there been a report that compares the costs of building IEP compared to the cost of keeping the HST's until the wires are up so you can have Electrostars everywhere?

Are you seriously suggesting that Electrostars are suitable for long distance Intercity routes? Let alone the fact they can't run at 125mph? As someone else has already said; IEP discussion and common sense?

 

[RAGNARØKR]

First of all, where is this "plenty of space"?

Secondly, given how busy Edinburgh Waverley is how are you going to find room in the timetable for light engine movements?

How many times a day, and when, are trains going to need a loco change at Waverley to proceed to Aberdeen?

 

[Manchester77]

Sorry but only passenger doors need to be in the platform. That's why HST power cars can be off the end of the platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So they are going to be designed to be retrofitted to other dmus?? Excuse me if I'm a little sceptical about that.

Erm it was a suggestion. It feels like you can't have a positive opinion on IEP without it being ripped apart. And I don't actually see any suggestions for what we could use the redundant diesels for...

 

[Dave1987]

Are you seriously suggesting that Electrostars are suitable for long distance Intercity routes? Let alone the fact they can't run at 125mph? As someone else has already said; IEP discussion and common sense?

I have already corrected myself on this comment earlier thank you

 

[RAGNARØKR]

What would happen to the Diesel engines of the bi-mode trains once the wires are all up? They would be removed and probably scrapped, ie a total waste of money designing and building bi-mode trains!!

No, they will use the IEPs on the Glasgow-Mallaig route and the Falmouth and St Ives branches.

Of course there might be a little bit of work to be done to get them to fit.

 

[Dave1987]

Erm it was a suggestion. It feels like you can't have a positive opinion on IEP without it being ripped apart. And I don't actually see any suggestions for what we could use the redundant diesels for...

What I am saying is why fork out for IEP and bi-mode? Why not electrify and use electric traction, then when the wires finish attach to a loco like the pendo's do with the 57's and drag it the rest of the way?

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I agree that there should be a mock up as well, then that would stop some of the doubt that is being seen within this thread.

At £2.6 million a vehicle it would be hopelessly uneconomic to give standard class passengers in an IEC the amount of space they could enjoy in a third class mark 1 coach. The real cost is about eight times more.

 

[Manchester77]

What I am saying is why fork out for IEP and bi-mode? Why not electrify and use electric traction, then when the wires finish attach to a loco like the pendo's do with the 57's and drag it the rest of the way?

Because they have an awful lot of difficulties. The last pendo drag was cancelled as the 390 and 57 wouldn't talk with each other and it was replaced by a double voyager...

 

[ainsworth74]

Because they have an awful lot of difficulties. The last pendo drag was cancelled as the 390 and 57 wouldn't talk with each other and it was replaced by a double voyager...

Though of course that was with a locomotive and a unit that were never really expected to work together except for rescue purposes. I would imagine a locomotive and unit that were built/designed from the outset to couple day in day out would be far more reliable.

 

[Dave1987]

The way I see it that is a far more viable option and doesn't involve dragging around a heavy dead Diesel engine under the wires. And then as soon as the wires are up all the way just get rid of the loco.