IEP for beginners

[RichmondCommu]

Didn't we have a seating layout linked on here a few months ago? Which was basically a voyager again with an over the top amount of disabled toilets, no bar/buffet for an intercity train and the ditching of the likeable diesel power car in one of the driving cars for annoyingly loud, vibrating underfloor engines.

One diesel power car was never going to be enough and the idea was quickly dropped.

 

[Harbon 1]

One diesel power car was never going to be enough and the idea was quickly dropped.

Class 43s seem to manage 4.5 carriages on a de-rated engine, what's to say a better more powerful engine with traction spread throughout won't be enough for 5/7 car ieps

 

[D841 Roebuck]

A couple of points.

Firstly, Edinburgh Waverley. As I recall, there's plenty of space at the EAST end of the station for a suitable loco to stable, then in the 5-10 minutes that through trains to Aberdeen or Inverness stop there anyway, to attach to the rear of northbound/detach from the front of southbound services. Furthermore, as such a locomotive would be (presumably) a diesel electric it ought to be possible to supply electrickery to the motors on the EMU from the loco and thus get the benefits of distributed traction.

Secondly, political. The former Ambassador to Japan is apparently now employed by Hitachi. The flat pack trains will be glued together and have the "No Smoking" stickers applied in a facility not unadjacent to the former constituency of that pillar of moral rectitude Tony "there really were WMDs there" Blair. These facts are completely coincidental to the hysterical insistence on IEP by the DfT, of course...

 

[RAGNARØKR]

However its also a shame the goal posts have been moved so much, from a Diesel power car, to Underfloor engines, and then the different order sizes

Probably illegal too. Bombardier could have offered something like the E-Voyager if manufacturers had been given the opportunity to tender on the actual train that has been ordered. I am surprised that the decision has not been challenged in court. We are talking Judicial Review territory here.

 

[Clip]

Thgey would also be less than half the price to lease than the IEP!



Up to a point MU operations are better but where LHCS has its place is running beyond the wires without carting around an extra 200 tonnes of dead weight and also strengthening the service, you can "adjust" the length of the train on a daily basis depending on anticipated demand.
How can it take 24 hours just to insert 2 extra coaches in a Pendolino?:roll:

Id hazard a guess at all the electrical and safety systems testing that would need to be undertaken along with updating the software to accomodate the extra coaches.

 

[Wath Yard]

Probably illegal too. Bombardier could have offered something like the E-Voyager if manufacturers had been given the opportunity to tender on the actual train that has been ordered. I am surprised that the decision has not been challenged in court. We are talking Judicial Review territory here.

And yet nobody has challenged it. I would have expected companies that could make probably hundreds of millions of pounds in profits over 27.5 years to have challenged it if what you say is true, but they haven't.

 

[anthony263]

And yet nobody has challenged it. I would have expected companies that could make probably hundreds of millions of pounds in profits over 27.5 years to have challenged it if what you say is true, but they haven't.

I remember reading in Mordern Railways back last year, Roger Ford mentioning that Bombardier & Seimens did launch a challenge against the decision to award the IEP contract to Hitachi, but it seems the DFT manged to persuade them to quietly drop their challenge.

Of course considering how much the design has changed Alstom perhaps could challenge the DFT even though they pulled out of the bidding (I am starting to think Alstom had the correct idea not to get involvved in this white elephant)

 

[Wath Yard]

Is there any evidence of this legal challenge? Anywhere? Or any evidence to back up any of the other conspiracy theories?

 

[AndyLandy]

Id hazard a guess at all the electrical and safety systems testing that would need to be undertaken along with updating the software to accomodate the extra coaches.

The testing issue will be true of new vehicles, but should be less of an issue once stock is in service. As for the software, if we can't write a TMS that can work out how many coaches there are in a formation, we might as well give up now.

 

[tbtc]

I think this is where a HST is useful though! You can add and take off carriages.

You might be able to do it but no TOC does.

But having a power car each end and carriages means that if train lengths do need to increase you can quite easily. Whereas multiple units are fixed length.

I keep seeing the argument that loco hauled is more flexible as you can join/split much easier, yet I'm struggling to remember examples of this on daytime trains in recent years (obviously ignoring the Sleepers).

An InterCity operator could presumably switch their carriages around so that fewer First Class ones were in a rake at the weekend (when FC is pretty empty), but they don't.

And yet we have almost every TOC running services that join/split EMU/DMUs together at some stage each day - even triple formation units - which kind of spoils the "multiple units are inflexible due to their fixed length whilst loco hauled services can easily add carriages at short notice" argument - yet it still persists.

 

[455driver]

It doesnt happen because successive governments have reduced the available rolling stock down to the bare minimum so there isnt any available.

That doesnt mean the idea is flawed though.

 

[nickshanks]

Wow, I come back the next day and there are 5 pages and 70 posts, most of which don't answer the original question. I was hoping for one person to reply with a bullet-point list of why the IEP is considered by many to be a bad thing.

As best I can tell from what I have read here, that would be:

• DfT procurement fiasco, including changing the specification after awarding the contract
• Higher than expected cost of selected option, resulting in smaller orders and consequently higher cost-per-unit
• Nostalgia for trains designed in the 1970s and 80s, which people at the time berated as an over-budget procurement fiasco (sound familiar?)
• People who've never sat in one of the yet-unbuilt coaches complaining that the windows don't line up with the seats, that the seating quality is poor, and about vibrations from the under-floor diesel engines which will be turned off most of the time.
• Some kind of tussle of righteousness between fans of locomotive-hauled plain coaches and advocates of coaches with built-in engines and cabs at either end.

There also seems to be confusion among forum posters as to whether 'gauge clearance' merely means obtaining the paperwork to run trains of a certain loading gauge, or actually clearing the line, i.e. lowing track/raising obstacles/razing obstacles. Normally it means the latter, but someone clearly thought it meant the former.

 

[Yew]

Are any prototypes going to be delivered for passanger use, to see their reaction? And if so, and the reaction is negative, will modifications be considered to the interior?

EDIT: The more I look at the IEP concepts, the closer it starts to look to a javelin with longer carriages and moved doors. I hope it doesnt have the same horrible interior...

 

[Clip]

The testing issue will be true of new vehicles, but should be less of an issue once stock is in service. As for the software, if we can't write a TMS that can work out how many coaches there are in a formation, we might as well give up now.

Compared to throwing another coach on a rake of MKIVs its rather different.

Either way you write the software or how easy it is you still have to test it to make sure it functions correctly rather than just popping in 2 extra coaches and into service.

 

[aylesbury]

IEP is a concept that eminated from DFT as a means of bringing employment to the Nth of England ..Hitachi are merely providing a new version of a stock unit ,not one suited to inter city in the UK.Bombarier and Siemens have logical solutions to the problem but have been sidelined.Problems have multiplied since inception ,numerous specifications and nobody still has an idea what the trains will look like inside.TOC,s should specify what trains they want to use and civil servants must be sidelined.Loco hauled trains will come back into vogue again but it will take a blast of common sense to prevail something I dispair of.

 

[Bridge189]

Didn't we have a seating layout linked on here a few months ago? Which was basically a voyager again with an over the top amount of disabled toilets, no bar/buffet for an intercity train and the ditching of the likeable diesel power car in one of the driving cars for annoyingly loud, vibrating underfloor engines.

Could this start the beginning of a revolution, where Voyagers are better than a train?

I do hope they don't put the sewage pipes next to the exhaust again

Who says there will be no Buffet Bar? From what i've heard there will indeed be a Buffet area on the long distance version as both EC and FGW have buffet facilites and thats unlikley to be any different on the new stock.

While I see the flaws with the whole idea, I think some people are just being awkward on certain aspects of the design of which certain parts of it won't be known until your onboard. My personal gripe is the pocket doors instead of proper intercity style plug.

 

[Dave1987]

I think the main oposition to IEP is cost. Has there been a report that compares the costs of building IEP compared to the cost of keeping the HST's until the wires are up so you can have Electrostars everywhere?

If IEP wasnt as expensive, the interiors were as comfy as the upgrades to the mk4's on the ECML look like and the acceleration and braking characteristics were a huge improvement, opposition to IEP would melt away.

If the pendo's are anything to go by then any new intercity express train will not take passenger comfort as it first priority. There should be a consultation put out as to what passengers want from trains (within reason).

Talking of MU's flexiblity we are not talking about the peak/off peak reducing of train length argument. Im talking long term for example on HST's it is easy to add a coach if demand grows like FGW have done on their most overcrowded service but take one out if it goes down. On the pendo's it seems the 11 car formation is perminant

Also the argument about underfloor engines being very noisy is a very good one!

 

[Yew]

I think the main oposition to IEP is cost. Has there been a report that compares the costs of building IEP compared to the cost of keeping the HST's until the wires are up so you can have Electrostars everywhere?

If IEP wasnt as expensive, the interiors were as comfy as the upgrades to the mk4's on the ECML look like and the acceleration and braking characteristics were a huge improvement, opposition to IEP would melt away.

If the pendo's are anything to go by then any new intercity express train will not take passenger comfort as it first priority. There should be a consultation put out as to what passengers want from trains (within reason).

Talking of MU's flexiblity we are not talking about the peak/off peak reducing of train length argument. Im talking long term for example on HST's it is easy to add a coach if demand grows like FGW have done on their most overcrowded service but take one out if it goes down. On the pendo's it seems the 11 car formation is perminant

Also the argument about underfloor engines being very noisy is a very good one!

I'm sure there has been passanger consultation, with sufficiently lead in questions to get the aswers the government wants. ie; Do you want shorter journey times? Do you want a seat? and Do you want trains to be safe? Of course, no mention of noisey underfloor engines, claustrophobic carriages and packed in seats will have been made.

 

[krus_aragon]

Didn't we have a seating layout linked on here a few months ago? Which was basically a voyager again with an over the top amount of disabled toilets, no bar/buffet for an intercity train and the ditching of the likeable diesel power car in one of the driving cars for annoyingly loud, vibrating underfloor engines.

Here.

 

[AndyLandy]

Wow, I come back the next day and there are 5 pages and 70 posts, most of which don't answer the original question. I was hoping for one person to reply with a bullet-point list of why the IEP is considered by many to be a bad thing.

Essentially, the biggest complaint against IEP is it costs too much (AKA the Incredibly Expensive Project), followed by a lack of trust in the DfT's abilities to run such a project, and finally the inevitable enthusiast reason.

In summary:

• It will be uncomfortable, due to squeezing in as many seats as possible.
• It's too long at 26m and lots of costly infrastructure upgrades will be required.
• It's over-specced with all kinds of pointless features (Limp-home engines, Bi-mode versions etc)
• The DfT keep changing the spec, do they even know what they're doing? (See also: WCML franchising)
• The date keeps getting pushed back, are we just buying vapourware?
• This is a completely new design, Alstom/Bombardier/Siemens probably already have a suitable train platform upon which we could start from.
• We already dislike the Voyagers/Pendolinos for [insert reason], and these are likely to be more of the same.
• We really like the HSTs and don't want to see them replaced.

My personal opinion is that we do need something to replace the HSTs, but I have some reservations about what IEP is likely to deliver.

Oh, and personally, I'll miss the opening droplights. Where's the fun in train travel if you can't stick your head out the window and watch the world go by?

Compared to throwing another coach on a rake of MKIVs its rather different.

Either way you write the software or how easy it is you still have to test it to make sure it functions correctly rather than just popping in 2 extra coaches and into service.

Oh, absolutely. My point is that if we were in a situation where there was the will to re-form Pendolinos on the fly, we'd find a way to be able to do so. I do not believe the "problems" associated with re-forming MU vehicles are insurmountable.

 

[Dave1987]

88 seats per coach, holy cow they are gonna cram the seats in!! Just a I thought they would. That is unreal!!

 

[swt_passenger]

88 seats per coach, holy cow they are gonna cram the seats in!! Just a I thought they would. That is unreal!!

Not really - and it's that sort of assumption that is completely illogical, and clouds the debate. Take a 23m Mk3 vehicle that has a mixture of table and airline of 76 seats. Add 3m extra length to the seated area, as the drawings show, and that would easily provide 12 extra seats, at 4 across, and at normal spacings.

It is wrong to use a simple 'ratio' of 26:23 for the seated area because the existing coaches have a significant part of their length without seats. So it is the current seating area, say about 18m, that has to be scaled up by +3m; so 21:18 which is uncannily near to 88:76

So there is no real evidence that the seat spacing will be any worse than current trains.

 

[Dave1987]

Not really - and it's that sort of assumption that is completely illogical, and clouds the debate. Take a 23m Mk3 vehicle that has a mixture of table and airline of 76 seats. Add 3m extra length to the seated area, as the drawings show, and that would easily provide 12 extra seats, at 4 across, and at normal spacings.

It is wrong to use a simple 'ratio' of 26:23 for the seated area because the existing coaches have a significant part of their length without seats. So it is the current seating area, say about 18m, that has to be scaled up by +3m; so 21:18 which is uncannily near to 88:76

So there is no real evidence that the seat spacing will be any worse than current trains.

sorry according to those blueprints they will be 25m long so 2m longer than mk3 but with 12 extra seats also the vestibules look very big

 

[Yew]

I hope the First/standard divide is more substantial than on a Meridian though..

 

[swt_passenger]

sorry according to those blueprints they will be 25m long so 2m longer than mk3 but with 12 extra seats also the vestibules look very big

You need to find a comparable Mk3 diagram and measure just the cabin. Believe me it is at least 3m less than the IEP, but my numbers were rounded from memory.

But even if there were only 2m in it, it would still allow 12 seats at typical current airline pitch anyway, which is around 700mm.

What is the body length of a Mk3 in comparison anyway - is the 23m over the coach ends or over the coupling - in which case a Mk3 might only be 22m long for our purposes.

 

[LexyBoy]

FGW Mk 3s have 84 seats, so only 4 more with an extra 3-ish metres sounds good to me. Nice to see a decent proportion of table seats included in the plans too.

No idea whether the DfT's draft seating plans will be the same as what we get though (presumably specified by the franchisee).

 

[Wath Yard]

I think the main oposition to IEP is cost. Has there been a report that compares the costs of building IEP compared to the cost of keeping the HST's until the wires are up so you can have Electrostars everywhere?

Who on Earth wants Electrostars everywhere? They're absolutely fine for the duties they have been built for but London - Inverness on an Electrostar?!

 

[Dave1987]

You need to find a comparable Mk3 diagram and measure just the cabin. Believe me it is at least 3m less than the IEP, but my numbers were rounded from memory.

But even if there were only 2m in it, it would still allow 12 seats at typical current airline pitch anyway, which is around 700mm.

What is the body length of a Mk3 in comparison anyway - is the 23m over the coach ends or over the coupling - in which case a Mk3 might only be 22m long for our purposes.

Admittedly I hadn't taken just the cabin into consideration. If you are correct then they do look to have a comfortable amount of room for passengers. That just leaves the issue of cost and noise/vibrations from the underfloor engines

Who on Earth wants Electrostars everywhere? They're absolutely fine for the duties they have been built for but London - Inverness on an Electrostar?!

Apologies I meant electric AC traction throughout the railways in its various different forms. I seriously dont think there needs to be anymore diesel traction built now. The HST's could last as long as is needed to put the wires up and I think bi-mode trains are just an unneccessary expense, unless you do as I said before attach a diesel loco to the front when the wires run out.

 

[Manchester77]

In summary:

• It will be uncomfortable, due to squeezing in as many seats as possible.
• We already dislike the Voyagers/Pendolinos for [insert reason], and these are likely to be more of the same.
• We really like the HSTs and don't want to see them replaced.

Wow it's interesting how you can see into the future and tell us how "uncomfortable" this train will be. For example seats could be used which are comfortable and dispute seeing floor plans of the trains they are subject to a lot of change as its DaFT lead

We being whom? You or just a generalized comment?

Again generalized. They've had their day of transforming BR but they have now become outdated by newer trains. They are sound locomotives but as with everything it is time to look into a replacement. No one has been able to prove to me how bad IEP is going to be. All I have seen is how expensive it is. If cost saving measures can be made we will end with a quality unit living hopefully as long as their predecessors. But when I have people telling me that they will be uncomfortable, really give it a chance :roll:

 

[Wath Yard]

Apologies I meant electric AC traction throughout the railways in its various different forms. I seriously dont think there needs to be anymore diesel traction built now. The HST's could last as long as is needed to put the wires up and I think bi-mode trains are just an unneccessary expense, unless you do as I said before attach a diesel loco to the front when the wires run out.

So you don't think any new diesel traction should built, except if they're locomotives. :roll:

Hitachi state the bi-modes can be converted to EMUs if required, however if you purchase a fleet of diesel locomotives they will be totally redundant if/when the wires do reach places like Inverness and Aberdeen.