IEP Annoucement

[LE Greys]

How silly would it be if someone proposed a service calling Royston-Meldreth-Foxton-Cambridge and Royston-Shepreth-Cambridge? At least a few people in all three would be very annoyed, even if they only ever go to London or Cambridge.

 

[Zoe]

It seems they should naturally have services linking them!

I doubt there are many people in Bedwyn wanting to go to Pewsey.

 

[Ivo]

It's more a case of both serve as railheads for, er, Marlborough. It's usually faster to walk than to go by train when travelling between Marlborough and Marlborough.

 

[Nym]

Faster acceleration plus some modest line speed improvements is how they could be 20 minutes faster.

I dont think the current version Agility and Dft are working on is anything remotely like that first announced with specs in the public domain. Anyway last time I heard the details of the new Bi-mode discussed it was two unpowered driving cars with three powered coachs each using three underfloor diesel aux power units of approx 250-350hp.

5 Carrages? Why does a doubled up 5 carrage unit with less power per tonne than a pacer is a good idea for an intercity unit? It needs the same power per tonne on diesel as an IC125 set, and to be 10 carrage fixed formation, as discribed in my posts before. If they want outer commuter sets aswell the carrages should be sufficently hogonised to be able to be re-formed similarly to coaching stock. Granted there may be 3 or 4 special kinds of coaches, but they should all be pretty much the same.

Eg.
(PC) Passenger Coach: Busbar & Control Passthrough with Traction Packages
(TR) Transformer Coach: Driving cab, Guard's Office, Pantograph, 5KW Transformer, 1,000hp 'Emergency Generator' and control systems.
(GE) Generator Coach: Driving Cab, 3,500hp Generator and control systems.
(DV) DVT & Passenger Coach: Passenger accomadation, Driving cab & Control Systems

Possible additions:
(IT) Transformer Coach Intermediate: No driving cab, pantograph, 2kw transformer, control systems & 350 - 500hp 'Emergency Generator'

Possible formatons:

Electric Only LDPE: TR - nPC - DV (8>n>10)
Bi-Mode LDPE: TR - nPC - GE (8>n>10)

Electric Only Commuter Service: DV - PC - IT - PC - DV
Formed in the depot with couplers on the unit ends...

Bi-Mode Commuter Service: DV - PC - IT - PC - TR

And any other number of formations you'd care to think of, effectlivly designing the Mk5 coach to contain traction packages. You can have formations of any length, re-formed overnight...

 

[Zoe]

5 Carrages? Why does a doubled up 5 carrage unit with less power per tonne than a pacer is a good idea for an intercity unit? It needs the same power per tonne on diesel as an IC125 set

If it isn't going to run west of Newton Abbot though it doesn't need the same power as an HST when on diesel. Underfloor engines also remove the need for generator coaches which woudl cose some space. Remember that Voyagers use underfloor engines and are quite succesful when compared to an HST for power.

 

[Nym]

If it isn't going to run west of Newton Abbot though it doesn't need the same power as an HST when on diesel. Underfloor engines also remove the need for generator coaches which woudl cose some space. Remember that Voyagers use underfloor engines and are quite succesful when compared to an HST for power.

Would need more than a pacer though?

Voyager more power than an HST though, 10 carrages of voyager have 7500hp, as apposed to an HST's 4500hp...

 

[Zoe]

Remember if the post above is correct then there are to be three underfloor engines in three of the coaches so at least nine engines. The maximum speed needed will be 100 mph although in theory you could get away with 90 mph as there's only a short 4 mile 100 mph sectio n between Cardiff and Swansea. It wouldn't be too difficult either in theory to put engines under the two driving cars givin a total of fifteen engines. If you are running in a 2 x 5 formation then that's a least eighteen engines and thirty if you could put engines under the driving cars.

 

[starrymarkb]

In July 2009 with the original electrification announcement, it said work on the electrification would begin immediately. That of course didn't happen. So let's hope now it's not long before the actual physical evidence of work on the electrification going ahead.

It did, Alstom surveyed the route in 2009 and were working on design work when the election occured

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed thats upto 1050 horsepower per coach (3 coachs with 3 small APU in each), more than the 750hp in each coach of the Super Voyagers though there are engines in the driving cars of those. Thats about 3150hp total for 5 cars compared to 3750hp in a heavier super voyager (about 30% weight saving in powered cars and more in the driving cars according to Hitachi claims). The driving cars both have pantos so under the wire the potential power is much greater.

IEP 3x3x250-350hp = 2250-3150hp
221 750x5 = 3750hp

221 adjusted -30% hp to compare power to weight ratio = 2625hp

I make a higher power to weight ratio at the upper end than the Super Voyagers in that, of course though these were just specs they were considering (around the time of the election) and they may well have gone in a completley different direction. I also may have misremembered and the engines upper limit may have been 375hp rather than 350hp (not that it makes much difference), it was almost 10 months ago :P

 

[starrymarkb]

The multiple engines sounds like these
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_72500

2 car units, 4 MAN diesels for traction and 2 Perkins diesels for auxiliaries per unit

but will they work better then the SNCF units which have been v troublesome due to their complexity

 

[Nym]

Erm, multipule engines per coach? And transformers and invertors, and power electronics, where are the passengers going again?

 

[Zoe]

Erm, multipule engines per coach? And transformers and invertors, and power electronics, where are the passengers going again?

Above the floor and below the roof. That's the advantage of multiple units, put the equipment under the floor and on the roof without losing any space for passengers.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes sounds very similar to that Starry though on the IEP they would be generating power for electrical motors rather than a mechanical transmission for each axle.

Nym, the equipment for converting 25kv would be in the driving cars with the pantos while the APU equipment would be in the powered cars. Essentially as your not having each motor directly drive the axles you need much less torque and you can use several smaller lighter generators in parallel compared to the single large one in a normal DMU.

 

[Nym]

Seems like a hell of a lot of maintinance to me, 18 engines per 10 car bi mode rather than 2 to maintain? And it would mean taking the whole formation out of service to service one generator, yes it has more redundancy but it sounds a pain in the arse to deal with.

But it is one way to be Euro IIIii compliant, (use bus engines that drink fuel like it's going out of fassion)

The lower emissions engines in buses tend to drink more fuel than the older ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes sounds very similar to that Starry though on the IEP they would be generating power for electrical motors rather than a mechanical transmission for each axle.

Nym, the equipment for converting 25kv would be in the driving cars with the pantos while the APU equipment would be in the powered cars. Essentially as your not having each motor directly drive the axles you need much less torque and you can use several smaller lighter generators in parallel compared to the single large one in a normal DMU.

In that case couldn't we have a bank of generators in the 'generator coach' if passenger comfort is at all a priority, in combination with homogonisation between Electric and Bi-Mode carrages...

Or, removable generator modules under the floors of the coaches, for the standard APU, just have a couple somwhere in the set, if it where two per carrage able to be fitted then have them all in a frame that can be removed from the center of the underside of the unit, except the transformer car.

Basically theres a welth of options available, but both revolve around having underfloor engines or a power car, and a variations on this theme, lets see what Hitachi can do with mounting these engines.

 

[WatcherZero]

Or, removable generator modules under the floors of the coaches, for the standard APU, just have a couple somwhere in the set

Thats pretty much it, 3 underfloor engines which could be easily swapped out or removed entirely if no longer required and the coachs would instead draw power from the OHLE through the driving cars.

The whole idea is that the Bi-mode and EMU coachs would be identical apart from the modular engines meanwhile there would be no difference at all in the driving cars and no need for the complication of another seperate generator car. Having diesel generator cars to take the IEP beyond the wires was rejected by the government on logistic and operational grounds, they decided it wasnt worth maintaining another type of car and the time and hassle of attaching it to every service travelling beyond the wires.

 

[Zoe]

In that case couldn't we have a bank of generators in the 'generator coach'

You lose passenger space by having a generator coach. Underfloor engines allow for the full length of the train except the crumple zones to be used by passengers. Seeing as the units are going to be five coahes, you need all the passenger space you can get. When the train is off the wires, the diesel engines will be supplying power for the traction motors so I wouldn't have thought they could be described as auxilliary power units.

 

[WatcherZero]

Your right, they would be auxillary to OHLE operation, but it may not be the correct terminology, Primary Power Units PPU?

 

[Zoe]

Your right, they would be auxillary to OHLE operation

I hope you are not saying there are going to be diesel APUs running when the train is under the wires.

 

[WatcherZero]

One of the three in operation while under the wires to supplement and cover the extra weight of the APU's has been mentioned, which if true would be very unsatisfactory.

 

[Zoe]

One of the three in operation while under the wires has been mentioned.

So one of the three would be powering the auxilliary systems then both when the train is under or off the wires with the other two powering the traction motors but switched off when under the wires?

 

[WatcherZero]

It comes from the IEP being primarily designed as Electric or Diesel versions and the Hybrid unholy melding that was not designed in from the start. They may have worked out this power shortfall by now for example theyve had time to refine the Driving car design to strengthen its transformers. In any design process theirs stuff you work through during development.

 

[Zoe]

Having one of the diesel engines power the auxilliary systems when under the wires would at least allow all of the power from the OHLE to go to the traction motors and if you are carting around these engines then they will need more power than an EMU would.

 

[Adamw5433]

But it is one way to be Euro IIIii compliant, (use bus engines that drink fuel like it's going out of fassion)

The lower emissions engines in buses tend to drink more fuel than the older ones.

Don't i know it!
The new engine have a daft computer built into them, if it all goes wrong and doesn't want to play.
We have to call someone out from Leeds to reset the computer, which takes an hour to rest with a laptop.
Why we engineers can't just have a 'depot' laptop to reset the computers i just don't know.


I can see the first batch of EIP stock requiring alot of maintance and rejigging, before they are upto expected reliability.
Then a delay while the rejigging is applied to the next batch of stock before delivery.

Adam

 

[Nym]

Yes, but waste how much diesel? When under OHLE all diesel should be OFF or warming up.

And when did somone say the're 5 coach units? When is the GWML going to need a 5 coach unit that is going to restrict movment between the two when you could just have 10 car units, or will it be two half sets like E*?

 

[Zoe]

Yes, but waste how much diesel? When under OHLE all diesel should be OFF or warming up.

It won't be using as much as it would if it was supplying power for the traction motors. As I said it would allow all of the OHLE power to go to the traction motors and with engines to cart around you are going to need as much as you can get.

 

[WatcherZero]

The government decided hybrid sets would be 5 car as they would be more likely to be serving secondary destinations, the EMU would be 5 or 10 car sets. They arent fixed formations either because of the multiple design they could be strengthened by adding more centre coachs if the timetable required like a locomotive when more than 5 carriages there would be two pantos up.

 

[RichW1]

I try not to be nagative from the outset over anything but this is going to be a complete mess. Carting around diesel engines wherever they're mounted is nonsense. Acceleration will be reduced from its optimum not to mention my concern incase these are 5 car units! Who the hell in any other country makes 5 car Intercity trains?! Yes they'll be coupled together etc but there'll be no more capacity than now with the drivers ends on 4 sections of units.

Moreover, where the hell do they get that crap about 20 mins saving from bristol?! My ass, 91's can't manage 20 minutes saving over 393 miles to Edinburgh so we'll no way get any such saving to Bristol especially carting round diesel engines on top of the usual weight considerations. This is going to be a project that produces trains that'll look like special needs trains like the voyagers only worse!

To top it off, just like the voyagers, I bet no effort goes into external appearance and design. They'll look 'functional' or in other words...a pile of s**t. I don't know another country that has such poor looking multiple unit front ends as in Britain except for the Pendolinos that have had such consideration shown.

All this is supposed to be a replacement for the HST's? Oh god. I've got to live with this for the next 40years...what a tragic shame.

 

[Zoe]

Just to clarify, will the other two engines supply the traction motors directly when off the wires?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I try not to be nagative from the outset over anything but this is going to be a complete mess. Carting around diesel engines wherever they're mounted is nonsense.

That's where one of the diesel engines power the auxilliary systems when under the wires will have its use. It will allow the OHLE power that would have been for the auxilliary systems to go to the traction motors so the train will still have good acceleration.

 

[WatcherZero]

I believe all engines would pool power into a central power bus which the motors would directly draw from and there would be a feed transformed down for the low power equipment like power sockets, similar to the Siemens 380's. Under the wires the Power cars would draw the AC and transform it down and convert to DC for feeding into the central power bus.

And again take what im saying with a pinch of salt, this was just the design they where working on 10 months ago, the final result may be different.

 

[Zoe]

That seems reasonable, you'd only need to have one engine running under the wires to keep the axuilliary systems running then. Seems a much better solution than providing one larger engine per coach as this way you won't be wasting diesel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

5 car Intercity trains?

If there hadn't been a sudden increase in demand in September 2002 (in part due to Virgin's agressive marketing) we may well be saying now what a success the introduction of the Voyagers was. The trains were half length but they doubled the frequency on the core route. Bristol Temple Meads will get twice as many trains to Paddington under the plans announced.