Ideas From Modron

[Modron]

I will accept constructive criticism on these:

My post is in two main parts, the first is increases in services to Cardiff Central in the morning (as currently the services on offer are limited and cramped) and the second is for a number of other routes:

Part One

Service 2E00 from Cardiff Canton to Bridgend (ECS) is made up of 2 x Class 150 units. Upon arrival at Bridgend at 06:36, the train then divides with a new service being formed - the 06:42 to Aberdare (2A08) will still run as planned, but the front two coaches will form the 06:39 from Bridgend to Cardiff Central calling at Pencoed (06:46), Llanharan (06:51) and Pontyclun (06:56) before arriving at Cardiff Central (07:14) on Platform 4. This service would then couple up with the 2B55 service and work as the 07:16 Cardiff Central to Swansea.

A new service (5XXX - not too overly familiar with available headcodes) works ECS from Cardiff Canton to Maesteg at 04:40 (arrival at Maesteg at 05:35) and then works as a service to Manchester Piccadilly which will then couple up with the existing 1W48 service from Carmarthen to Manchester Piccadilly at Bridgend. The service from Maesteg would call at Maesteg Ewenny Road (05:43), Garth (05:45), Tondu (05:55), Sarn (05:58), Wildmill (06:01) and Bridgend (06:05). 1W48 would couple up and then be the rear unit of the two. The service would then operate as already advertised.

Would it also be possible to get the 06:15 from Carmarthen to call at Pencoed and Pontyclun again?

Service 1F03 from Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour to start from Swansea at 05:24 and to call at Neath (05:34), Port Talbot Parkway (05:42), Bridgend (05:57) and Cardiff Central (06:21) before continuing to Portsmouth Harbour as currently advertised.

Part Two

New early morning service from Nottingham to London Kings Cross (as Leeds to London St. Pancras is currently allowed, and takes some passengers and therefore revenue from Virgin, perhaps this could be an off-set?). Service departs Nottingham at 05:00, Grantham (05:27) and London Kings Cross at 06:34. Possibility of a return train from London Kings Cross at 20:07 calling at Peterborough (20:50), Grantham (21:15) and Nottingham (21:45)

...and now an interesting one...

Service 5S35 from Bristol Barton Hill to Bath Spa will instead travel directly to Swindon and the 1S35 service to Glasgow Central will start from there instead (thus Swindon and indeed the County of Wiltshire joins the Cross Coutry family). Service departs Swindon at 05:50 and calls at Bath Spa (06:05) and Bristol Temple Meads (06:20) with a new stop at Gloucester (bypassing Bristol Parkway) at (06:55).

At Gloucester, 1S35 would couple up with a Voyager service from Cardiff Central to Blackpool North which starts at Cardiff Central at 06:00 and calls at Newport (06:15) and Gloucester (06:53). The combined service would then depart Gloucester at 07:00, 1S35 at the front with the Blackpool North portion at the rear, bypassing Cheltenham Spa as the service will need to make up time in order to fit the current diagram and then calling at Birmingham New Street at 07:56.

At Birmingham New Street, the service would split and 1S35 would continue to Glasgow Central as currently advertised. The Blackpool service would then depart prior to an ECS movement to Wolverhampton via Tame Bridge Parkway (so roughly 08:09-08:11) and call at Stafford (08:43), Preston (09:55) and Blackpool North (10:15). This service would then run as ECS to Manchester Piccadilly via Crewe and then form the front unit of the 1V55 12:05 service from Manchester Piccadilly to Exeter St. Davids.

Like I mentioned, these are just ideas, so please feel free to comment or add suggestions/amendments if I've overlooked something (I've used Real Time Trains to the best of my ability and tried not to hold existing services up if at all possible!)

 

[30907]

I will accept constructive criticism on these:

My post is in two main parts, the first is increases in services to Cardiff Central in the morning (as currently the services on offer are limited and cramped) and the second is for a number of other routes:

Part One

Service 2E00 from Cardiff Canton to Bridgend (ECS) is made up of 2 x Class 150 units. Upon arrival at Bridgend at 06:36, the train then divides with a new service being formed - the 06:42 to Aberdare (2A08) will still run as planned, but the front two coaches will form the 06:39 from Bridgend to Cardiff Central calling at Pencoed (06:46), Llanharan (06:51) and Pontyclun (06:56) before arriving at Cardiff Central (07:14) on Platform 4. This service would then couple up with the 2B55 service and work as the 07:16 Cardiff Central to Swansea.

A new service (5XXX - not too overly familiar with available headcodes) works ECS from Cardiff Canton to Maesteg at 04:40 (arrival at Maesteg at 05:35) and then works as a service to Manchester Piccadilly which will then couple up with the existing 1W48 service from Carmarthen to Manchester Piccadilly at Bridgend. The service from Maesteg would call at Maesteg Ewenny Road (05:43), Garth (05:45), Tondu (05:55), Sarn (05:58), Wildmill (06:01) and Bridgend (06:05). 1W48 would couple up and then be the rear unit of the two. The service would then operate as already advertised.

Would it also be possible to get the 06:15 from Carmarthen to call at Pencoed and Pontyclun again?

Service 1F03 from Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour to start from Swansea at 05:24 and to call at Neath (05:34), Port Talbot Parkway (05:42), Bridgend (05:57) and Cardiff Central (06:21) before continuing to Portsmouth Harbour as currently advertised.

Part Two

New early morning service from Nottingham to London Kings Cross (as Leeds to London St. Pancras is currently allowed, and takes some passengers and therefore revenue from Virgin, perhaps this could be an off-set?). Service departs Nottingham at 05:00, Grantham (05:27) and London Kings Cross at 06:34. Possibility of a return train from London Kings Cross at 20:07 calling at Peterborough (20:50), Grantham (21:15) and Nottingham (21:45)

1. Operationally simpler would be 0440 Canton, 0543 Maesteg-Bridgend (shunt), 0639 Bridgend-Cardiff C. I assume there is demand for the service from Maesteg? If 1W48 requires 4 cars, attach them at Swansea.

2. What stock are you proposing for Nottingham-KGX and where is it coming from? I think it would fall foul of the "not primarily abstractive" rule for OA - the Leeds-STP service revenue will already be factored in for LNER as it predates privatisation.

 

[Modron]

1. Operationally simpler would be 0440 Canton, 0543 Maesteg-Bridgend (shunt), 0639 Bridgend-Cardiff C. I assume there is demand for the service from Maesteg? If 1W48 requires 4 cars, attach them at Swansea.

2. What stock are you proposing for Nottingham-KGX and where is it coming from? I think it would fall foul of the "not primarily abstractive" rule for OA - the Leeds-STP service revenue will already be factored in for LNER as it predates privatisation.

To answer:

1. There are definitely a few 'early birds' who could benefit from this service, such as those people who work in Cardiff but live in the Llynfi valley. The main issue currently is that Pencoed, Llanharan and certainly Pontyclun get a lot of patronage in the early mornings (Monday-Friday and sometimes Saturday) and currently there is overcrowding on the first two stopping trains towards Cardiff (the 06:31 to Manchester Piccadilly and the 07:15 to Ebbw Vale Town from Pontyclun are standing room only) and so more trains to shift more commuters and thereby less overcrowding is the central crux of this. Also 1W48 does not stop at Swansea - after leaving Llanelli it turns briefly onto the Heart of Wales line and then travels via the Swansea District Line to Court Salt junction where it joins the South Wales Main Line at Briton Ferry.

2. You're probably right that it would fall foul of the OA, and if the Leeds-London St. Pancras service does indeed predate privatisation then I would ditch it. I would probably have used an ex-GWR HST (2x8) as the Grantham-Nottingham section isn't currently electrified.

 

[Modron]

My latest pearl of (perhaps) wisdom:

If certain Voyager services to Southampton/Bournemouth could be 2x4 cars, would it be an idea for one unit to detach at Winchester and to thence run to Portsmouth Harbour or Portsmouth & Southsea via Fareham?

Going the other way, a unit from Portsmouth & Southsea/Portsmouth Harbour could then attach to a Glasgow Central/Manchester etc. service from Bournemouth or Southampton at Winchester before heading north possibly?

 

[Bald Rick]

My latest pearl of (perhaps) wisdom:

If certain Voyager services to Southampton/Bournemouth could be 2x4 cars, would it be an idea for one unit to detach at Winchester and to thence run to Portsmouth Harbour or Portsmouth & Southsea via Fareham?

Going the other way, a unit from Portsmouth & Southsea/Portsmouth Harbour could then attach to a Glasgow Central/Manchester etc. service from Bournemouth or Southampton at Winchester before heading north possibly?

Yes, if:

1) The signalling allows trains to attach / detach at Winchester
2) the timetable has enough space in it at Winchester to allow for the attachment / detachment
3) a viable path to/from Portsmouth can be found that lines up with the existing XC path to/from Southampton or Bournemouth
4) there is sufficient rolling stock to enable it.

I’m afraid the answer is likely to be no to all 4.

 

[Modron]

Yes, if:

1) The signalling allows trains to attach / detach at Winchester
2) the timetable has enough space in it at Winchester to allow for the attachment / detachment
3) a viable path to/from Portsmouth can be found that lines up with the existing XC path to/from Southampton or Bournemouth
4) there is sufficient rolling stock to enable it.

I’m afraid the answer is likely to be no to all 4.

Oh well, nothing ventured...

The line from Eastleigh to Fareham could possibly be used - swear I have seen a YouTube video of a XC Voyager on there once...

 

[30907]

Oh well, nothing ventured...

The line from Eastleigh to Fareham could possibly be used - swear I have seen a YouTube video of a XC Voyager on there once...

Eastleigh is certainly possible for attaching, but Pompey trains can only use the down side.

 

[Modron]

Eastleigh is certainly possible for attaching, but Pompey trains can only use the down side.

Plus I doubt that South Western Railway would allow access to Eastleigh for XC as well.

 

[6Gman]

Yes, if:

1) The signalling allows trains to attach / detach at Winchester
2) the timetable has enough space in it at Winchester to allow for the attachment / detachment
3) a viable path to/from Portsmouth can be found that lines up with the existing XC path to/from Southampton or Bournemouth
4) there is sufficient rolling stock to enable it.

I’m afraid the answer is likely to be no to all 4.

May I add:

5) if there are staffing resources to crew such a move (not sure XC crewing arrangements in the area)
6) if there is a commercial justification.

 

[6Gman]

I will accept constructive criticism on these:

New early morning service from Nottingham to London Kings Cross (as Leeds to London St. Pancras is currently allowed, and takes some passengers and therefore revenue from Virgin, perhaps this could be an off-set?). Service departs Nottingham at 05:00, Grantham (05:27) and London Kings Cross at 06:34. Possibility of a return train from London Kings Cross at 20:07 calling at Peterborough (20:50), Grantham (21:15) and Nottingham (21:45)

So is this set going to sit around in the London area from 0634 to 2007 each day?

Just not how it's done these days.

 

[Modron]

So is this set going to sit around in the London area from 0634 to 2007 each day?

Just not how it's done these days.

That wouldn't be the intention, no, and hopefully other work could be found for it.

Getting a path into London is relatively easy first thing in the morning, but later in the day and in the evening it is harder to get paths in/out without messing up existing services hence the 20:07 suggested departure time back to Nottingham.

I did receive a message about this suggestion from a fellow Forumite who suggested that rather than Virgin Trains have the route, it should be Grand Central as they would have more rolling stock at their disposal.

 

[Modron]

May I add:

5) if there are staffing resources to crew such a move (not sure XC crewing arrangements in the area)
6) if there is a commercial justification.

Good points, thanks for those!

I think that Portsmouth Harbour was on the XC network until 2003 (I'm sure that I saw a train going to Blackpool North from there at the time?), therefore if enough people in Portsmouth want these trains to return then it could be possible with some discussions and serious plans.

I'm also glad that I found proof that XC's have visited Fareham.. although it was on a diversion:

 

[30907]

ISTR the Portsmouth service was via Guildford?

 

[700007]

I also had the same ideas about an LNER service going to Nottingham via Grantham. I think having the morning train run slightly later and evening train run slightly earlier would do the trick. However instead of a stop at Peterborough (partially to reduce revenue abstraction off EMT), why not introduce a stop at Huntingdon that would thrive a with a non-stop service from London King's Cross?

During the day the train would probably work services to other East Coast destinations.

 

[Modron]

I also had the same ideas about an LNER service going to Nottingham via Grantham. I think having the morning train run slightly later and evening train run slightly earlier would do the trick. However instead of a stop at Peterborough (partially to reduce revenue abstraction off EMT), why not introduce a stop at Huntingdon that would thrive a with a non-stop service from London King's Cross?

During the day the train would probably work services to other East Coast destinations.

A very good idea, if paths for trains can be found. I think that a stop at Huntingdon makes sense as well.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some interesting ideas, but I think there would be some practical problems relating especially to traction knowledge, route knowledge and maybe also getting traction cleared to traverse some routes.

For example, if worked by EM, their crews currently work between Nottingham & Peterborough. Would it be economic to train enough crews to do Peterborough - Kings Cross for so few trains per day?

Do XC crews "know" Swindon to Bath, If not, is it worth them learning the route for one train per day. Also, XC crews do not work north of Crewe on the WCML - would there be sufficient business to justify them "learning" the road to Blackpool ?

 

[Modron]

Some interesting ideas, but I think there would be some practical problems relating especially to traction knowledge, route knowledge and maybe also getting traction cleared to traverse some routes.

For example, if worked by EM, their crews currently work between Nottingham & Peterborough. Would it be economic to train enough crews to do Peterborough - Kings Cross for so few trains per day?

Do XC crews "know" Swindon to Bath, If not, is it worth them learning the route for one train per day. Also, XC crews do not work north of Crewe on the WCML - would there be sufficient business to justify them "learning" the road to Blackpool ?

You raise some good points!

1) It depends on how many trains could run and who ultimately the TOC is and if they can work with other TOCs. There needs to be space on the network, but also the need for the service.

2) I think that the answer to both is no, but I believe that there is the desire to have Wiltshire join the XC network at some point. Worcestershire is joining their network soon (although I think that some XC trains between Cardiff and Nottingham call at Worcester Shrub Hill) so they may wish to follow suit.

The only thing which I would say re: Cardiff to Blackpool North is that:

a) It could give better access to Scotland, as people would not have to change at Bristol Parkway or Birmingham New Street during busy times.

b) I recall seeing a comment on this forum about how Stafford could benefit with more services towards Preston/Blackpool North. My proposed service is one extra, if it ever came to be.

 

[VT 390]

(although I think that some XC trains between Cardiff and Nottingham call at Worcester Shrub Hill) .

A few pass through but non are timetabled to actually stop there.

 

[6Gman]

I will accept constructive criticism on these:

At Birmingham New Street, the service would split and 1S35 would continue to Glasgow Central as currently advertised. The Blackpool service would then depart prior to an ECS movement to Wolverhampton via Tame Bridge Parkway (so roughly 08:09-08:11) and call at Stafford (08:43), Preston (09:55) and Blackpool North (10:15). This service would then run as ECS to Manchester Piccadilly via Crewe and then form the front unit of the 1V55 12:05 service from Manchester Piccadilly to Exeter St. Davids.

Like I mentioned, these are just ideas, so please feel free to comment or add suggestions/amendments if I've overlooked something (I've used Real Time Trains to the best of my ability and tried not to hold existing services up if at all possible!)

This seems a very complicated way to provide a single daily service to Blackpool! And I'd be interested to see the timings to get from a 1015 arrival at Blackpool to a 1205 departure from Manchester Picc. (Bear in mind the reversal needed south of Piccadilly)

 

[Modron]

If the train left Blackpool North at 10:20/10:25 (before the Northern services to Manchester Airport and Preston) and ran non-stop to Crewe, then it could pass Platform 5 at Preston before the Mossend-Daventry freight and continue south to Crewe. From there it could possibly reverse up to Manchester if there is a path.

It's a speculative idea, might have legs in it and it might have none.

 

[6Gman]

The only thing which I would say re: Cardiff to Blackpool North is that:

a) It could give better access to Scotland, as people would not have to change at Bristol Parkway or Birmingham New Street during busy times.

b) I recall seeing a comment on this forum about how Stafford could benefit with more services towards Preston/Blackpool North. My proposed service is one extra, if it ever came to be.

a) Doesn't it make more sense for S Wales - Scotland passengers to change at Crewe?
b) I was on the 1633 Euston - Blackpool today; travelling in the front carriage (of 5). At Stafford two people alighted from that coach; 3 boarded (I was one of them). At Crewe all 3 alighted; 1 boarded. The coaches further back were (probably) slightly busier, but it hardly points to a lot of demand.

 

[Modron]

a) Doesn't it make more sense for S Wales - Scotland passengers to change at Crewe?
b) I was on the 1633 Euston - Blackpool today; travelling in the front carriage (of 5). At Stafford two people alighted from that coach; 3 boarded (I was one of them). At Crewe all 3 alighted; 1 boarded. The coaches further back were (probably) slightly busier, but it hardly points to a lot of demand.

a) Possibly, but I've also spoken with people who travel between South Wales and Scotland via train (they have a fear of flying and also don't drive) and they have said that sometimes changing at Crewe/Birmingham New Street has been 'problematic' for them. However, I guess that even at Preston they'd encounter some sort of issue.

b) For that part, I was only mentioning what another Forum user was saying in regards to 'I want to see more Stafford-Preston/North West England services'.

XC only currently operate one train a week from Birmingham New Street to Blackpool North, therefore I would assume that they'd wish to put more services in there in the long-term.

 

[VT 390]

XC only currently operate one train a week from Birmingham New Street to Blackpool North, therefore I would assume that they'd wish to put more services in there in the long-term.

I thought the once a week service from Birmingham New Street on a Saturday departed at 07:21 ans was operated by Virgin Trains not XC.

 

[Modron]

I thought the once a week service from Birmingham New Street on a Saturday departed at 07:21 ans was operated by Virgin Trains not XC.

Heard it was XC, but if it's VT then no issue.

You might well be correct, on reflection, as a previous poster said that XC don't work north of Crewe.

 

[6Gman]

Heard it was XC, but if it's VT then no issue.

You might well be correct, on reflection, as a previous poster said that XC don't work north of Crewe.

Surely it's basically a VT positioning move for a Blackpool - Euston?

 

[Modron]

Surely it's basically a VT positioning move for a Blackpool - Euston?

Could well be.

 

[Modron]

You raise some good points!

1) It depends on how many trains could run and who ultimately the TOC is and if they can work with other TOCs. There needs to be space on the network, but also the need for the service.

2) I think that the answer to both is no, but I believe that there is the desire to have Wiltshire join the XC network at some point. Worcestershire is joining their network soon (although I think that some XC trains between Cardiff and Nottingham call at Worcester Shrub Hill) so they may wish to follow suit.

The only thing which I would say re: Cardiff to Blackpool North is that:

a) It could give better access to Scotland, as people would not have to change at Bristol Parkway or Birmingham New Street during busy times.

b) I recall seeing a comment on this forum about how Stafford could benefit with more services towards Preston/Blackpool North. My proposed service is one extra, if it ever came to be.

Also, if you look on the Wikipedia page for the Class 221, there is one shown at being at Swindon (on a diversion).

Therefore, I would say that the drivers must have some knowledge of the route, so Swindon to Glasgow (via Edinburgh) could be possible in time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Plus I doubt that South Western Railway would allow access to Eastleigh for XC as well.

XC have regularly used Eastleigh in passenger service over the last few years, whenever there hasn’t been any access to Southampton Central. They already split at least one ECS in the platforms. The route to/from Eastleigh TRSMD has to use the station platforms on over a dozen occasions every day of the week.

In terms of reasons why not, Eastleigh isn’t one of them.

 

[Modron]

XC have regularly used Eastleigh in passenger service over the last few years, whenever there hasn’t been any access to Southampton Central. They already split at least oneECS in the platforms. The route to/from Eastleigh TRSMD has to use the station platforms on over a dozen occasions every day of the week.

In terms of reasons why not, Eastleigh isn’t one of them.

Interesting, did not know that! I thought that Eastleigh was strictly LSWR only!

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting, did not know that! I thought that Eastleigh was strictly LSWR only!

For a few years after the extension of alternate Newcastle services there was a Southbound service each weekday evening that terminated at Eastleigh in passenger service on its way to the depot. Then they swapped it to run to Guildford, from where it runs empty via Havant, Fareham and Eastleigh platform 3 to reverse into the depot.