Ideas for 'Railway M25'?

[TrainBoy98]

Hi all, in this months edition of The Railway Magazine, they were talking about the East-West line becoming a 'Railway M25'. How it this as the trains wont go the full way around London? I know that when the South London Line opens, there will be a complete 'outer' circle if you like with the current cirlce line bing then 'inner' circle.

Although, apparently the London Overground route wont we run as a circle and will be run instead as separate lines still?

Also, would it be possible to create an actual 'Railway M25' prehaps following the motorways course as much as possible?

Discuss

 

[starrymarkb]

You thinking something like the TGV interconexxion? Can't see it happening myself as TBH there isn't much south of London to serve apart from the Channel Tunnel (and that might be better done with an HS1-HS2 link (even if low speed it would still be quicker then going around!)

Before those South East of London whinge, there is a lot of France North of Paris (plus Brussels/Belgium) and a lot of France south of it too! South of London you have er... Brighton

 

[Tubeboy]

Hasn't there being plans since the 70s.... Orbirail I think it's called.

 

[Wath Yard]

There doesn't seem much point building a London avoiding line when most of the passengers will be travelling to London. There was a fairly recent central London avoider when Anglia ran a Basingstoke - GEML (I think Chelmsford or Colchester) via South Acton and the NNL service but it didn't last long.

IIRC there were a couple of reasons for it being discontinued but one was poor loadings.

 

[TrainBoy98]

yeah its orbirail, but thats what the LO are doing with their lines

 

[Lee_Again]

HS2 branch to Heathrow, continuing to Gatwick, continuing to HS1 in or around Ashford.

If there was a chord from HS1 (south bound) heading towards Gatwick, you would almost have a complete circle of HS lines around London.

St Pancras to Gatwick, if less than 35 mins, would take 4 tph of the Brigton Mail Line freeing much needed capacity and with it's station at Stratford would link Docklands to Gatwick in less time than it takes to get to Heathrow.

 

[Be3G]

There doesn't seem much point building a London avoiding line when most of the passengers will be travelling to London. There was a fairly recent central London avoider when Anglia ran a Basingstoke - GEML (I think Chelmsford or Colchester) via South Acton and the NNL service but it didn't last long.

IIRC there were a couple of reasons for it being discontinued but one was poor loadings.

I remember that. I'd have actually found it genuinely useful if it had still been around in 2005!

 

[Jonny]

Why not just build a "HS25" line around London in a full circle that other high-speed lines can feed into, and use Motorway-based numbering for future lines (e.g. HS4 for the M4).

In fact, when the first railways were built it was said "build it and they will come".

 

[Lee_Again]

Those trains from Anglia to Basingstoke took ages to go around the NLL. Hardly surprising as that line is not meant for fast IC services.

 

[cuccir]

Stansted to Gatwick with stops interchanging with the East Coast ML, Midland ML, West Coast ML, Great Western ML and Heathrow/HS2? Possibly continuing from Gatwick to HS1?

 

[Drsatan]

There doesn't seem much point building a London avoiding line when most of the passengers will be travelling to London. There was a fairly recent central London avoider when Anglia ran a Basingstoke - GEML (I think Chelmsford or Colchester) via South Acton and the NNL service but it didn't last long.

IIRC there were a couple of reasons for it being discontinued but one was poor loadings.

I read somewhere that another reason it was discontinued was that the service became increasingly difficult to path along the NLL.

Back on topic, I can imagine an HS2 branch to Heathrow being extended to Staines (similar to the now-cancelled Airtrack), with HS2 services to Southampton Central being pathed via Staines and Chertsey. Possibly a few NoL Eurostars could be bought back from SNCF to offer a Southampton Central - Manchester Piccadilly via Heathrow servicer

 

[Wath Yard]

Those trains from Anglia to Basingstoke took ages to go around the NLL. Hardly surprising as that line is not meant for fast IC services.

And so would a railway M25. Who would want to travel in a circle at 200 mph, and how many people want to travel from Kings Langley - Chafford Hundred?


As I said I recall there were a couple of reasons why the Anglia service was discontinued but poor loadings was certainly one of them.

 

[tsr]

South of London you have er... Brighton

That is quite simply not an accurate representation (sorry to be so blunt!). There are many other large settlements in the South-East, a good number of which are quite close to Greater London or are within the outskirts.

An orbital system taking in large towns and cities around London could easily be formed, should there be a copious amount of money for new track, with a route such as Ebbsfleet Intl - Otford? - Sevenoaks - Sevenoaks - Tonbridge - Redhill - Dorking (Deepdene) - Guildford - Farnborough (North) - Wokingham - Maidenhead - Bourne End - High Wycombe - Amersham - Chesham - Hemel Hempstead - St Albans - Welwyn GC or Hatfield - Hertford Stations - Harlow - Shenfield - Basildon - Tilbury (Town) - Ebbsfleet.

Pour money into new, flexible track layouts (e.g. some really useful chords), electrification to a single voltage, and nicely powerful, comfortable trains, and I think you'd likely get results from both passenger and freight statistics, and a return on investment to match.

 

[Lee_Again]

Stansted to Gatwick with stops interchanging with the East Coast ML, Midland ML, West Coast ML, Great Western ML and Heathrow/HS2? Possibly continuing from Gatwick to HS1?

See my route above.

Stansted, on to HS1 at Stratford, HS1 to new spur before Ashford and then on to Gatwick. Less than 60 mins. And with another 15/20 in to Heathrow.

 

[ChilternHenry]

That is quite simply not an accurate representation (sorry to be so blunt!). There are many other large settlements in the South-East, a good number of which are quite close to Greater London or are within the outskirts.

An orbital system taking in large towns and cities around London could easily be formed, should there be a copious amount of money for new track, with a route such as Ebbsfleet Intl - Otford? - Sevenoaks - Sevenoaks - Tonbridge - Redhill - Dorking (Deepdene) - Guildford - Farnborough (North) - Wokingham - Maidenhead - Bourne End - High Wycombe - Amersham - Chesham - Hemel Hempstead - St Albans - Welwyn GC or Hatfield - Hertford Stations - Harlow - Shenfield - Basildon - Tilbury (Town) - Ebbsfleet.

Pour money into new, flexible track layouts (e.g. some really useful chords), electrification to a single voltage, and nicely powerful, comfortable trains, and I think you'd likely get results from both passenger and freight statistics, and a return on investment to match.

I believe he said south OF London, not the Southeast, half the towns you just listed are North of London

 

[starrymarkb]

Also I was referring to longer distance traffic rather then a local orbital and was drawing a Parallel with the LGV Interconexxion that bypasses Paris (and forms 3/4s of a orbit)

 

[43106]

There was a bit of discussion about an M25 railway on this forum 2 or 3 years ago, but IIRC it was for simply connecting up the lines radiating from London, rather than providing lines that let you avoid London. I've been told that there is (or was) some sort of law that prevents (or prevented) cross-London services, though Thameslink, Rugby - Gatwick, XC services to Brighton and the Basingstoke - Essex Anglia service seems to put that rumour to bed.
The M25 service suggested was something like Dartford - Orpington - Hayes - Croydon - Sutton - Surbiton - Kingston - Feltham - Heathrow - West Drayton - Uxbridge - Denham - Rickmansworth - Watford - Radlett - Potters Bar - Cheshunt - Loughton - Romford - Upminster - Purfleet - Dartford.

 

[Robsignals]

A new service pattern which could be called 'LASER' - London and South East Rail with medium to long distance dual voltage EMU's coming off the GEML, ECML, MML, WCML & GWML running round the North & West London Lines via a new interchange "London West" at Earls Court/Olympia before running to main lines heading South either directly or via running into 'Southern Terminals' and continuing as Fast services. This would provide faster services to the West End, South London and the south coast relieving existing services into 'Northern Terminals' of this traffic.

When electrification Birmingham - Oxford - Reading - Basingstoke is complete dual voltage EMU's can operate from Edinburgh/Glasgow/Manchester to Heathrow, Southampton, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and along the coast to Brighton. If the missing sections Wokingham - Ash & Shalford Jct - Reigate are juiced then direct portions can be detached at Reading for Gatwick, Eastbourne and Kent destinations via Redhill providing an effective 'South & West M25' at little cost.

It's already possible to run 3rd Rail EMU's Weymouth - Bournemouth - Southampton - (Portsmouth) - Worthing - Brighton (reverse) - Gatwick - Redhill (reverse or new chord) - Tonbridge - Ashford - Canterbury - Margate providing a faster service between Brighton and Ashford than the sometimes overcrowded 2 car diesels.

Finally existing connections at London Bridge, Waterloo, Victoria & Clapham Jct could be promoted as bypassing the M25 for many south of London journeys with no need to use the Underground.

 

[HSTEd]

Was there not a circular HSR line around London proposed as part of that plan by Norman Foster?

If nothing else it would allow a possible Thames Estuary Airport to use the Heathrow site as the mother of all park-and-rides.....

 

[The Ham]

I believe he said south OF London, not the Southeast, half the towns you just listed are North of London

Most of the towns listed are not that far from the M25 (other than some to west, but these where mostly joining up existing lines), for instance St Albans is only about 3 to 4 miles north of the M25 and Harlow is 7 to 8 miles.

As there is already the circle line in central London and the orbital Overground routes fairly close to London it would make sense for the next ring out to be further out perhaps somewhere close to the route of the M25.

The route would also need to meet fairly well severed stations which would either mean a large expense if you built a lot of new routes or moving a little further out to use the existing tracks.

 

[JamesRowden]

An orbital South of London already runs as a combination of services:

Reading-Guildford-Redhill
Redhill-Tonbridge
Tonbridge-Maidstone West-Strood
Strood-Dartford

With the introduction of East-West Rail the North West corner of an orbital will be available:

Reading-Oxford-Bletchley-Bedford

With regards to the use of the south west of the orbital. I think that this service should run (in addition to present services) (stops shown):

Reading-Guildford-Redhill-Tonbridge-Ashford-Folkestone-Dover (pretty much a straight line)

Estimating journey times

Reading-Redhill ~ 54m (subtracting 10 minutes from present service due to not stopping at 5 stations on a 70 mph line)

Reverse at Redhill ~ 5m

Redhill-Tonbridge ~ 20m (subtracting 10 minutes from present service due to not stopping at 5 stations on a 70 mph line [I think it might be faster than this)

Waiting at Tonbridge ~ 1m

Tonbridge-Ashford ~ 21m (subtracting 15 minutes for not stopping at 5 station on a 90 mph line)

Waiting at Ashford ~ 1m

Ashford-Dover ~ 27m (subtracting 1 minute for not stopping at Folkestone West)

Times From Reading
Redhill 54m (idea) 64m (present)
Tonbridge 79m (idea) 95m (present [via London])
Ashford 101m (idea) 95m (present [via HS1 & London]
Dover 129m (idea) 128m (present [via HS1 & London]

Considering the journey times I have estimated, this would apear to be a good alternative to travelling through central London for someone wanting to travel to Reading and those who want only 1 change (or no LUL) to get to Bristol, South Wales or Oxford etc. It would also be useful for myself traveling between Reading and Hastings (change at Tonbridge).

The new East West line can be used for a service following the route below:

Southampton-Reading-Oxford-Bedford-Sheffield-(Doncaster or Leeds [requires further eletrification])-York-Edinburgh

If the present plans for electrification and East West Rail go ahead then all that is needed for a useful electrified Crosscountry service that bypasses London is some obvious infill electrfication.

 

[AndyLandy]

I've been told that there is (or was) some sort of law that prevents (or prevented) cross-London services, though Thameslink, Rugby - Gatwick, XC services to Brighton and the Basingstoke - Essex Anglia service seems to put that rumour to bed.

I believe this was true in the 18th Century, an Act of Parliament forbade mainline railways through the capital. It would almost certainly have been repealed a long time ago, but sadly that doesn't mean you can plough a new railway through the centre of London, the costs would be astronomical!

I imagine that even without that Act, running a line through London at the time would have been expensive enough, never mind trying to do it now.

 

[Nym]

It would almost certainly have been repealed a long time ago, but sadly that doesn't mean you can plough a new railway through the centre of London, the costs would be astronomical!

I imagine that even without that Act, running a line through London at the time would have been expensive enough, never mind trying to do it now.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, astronomical!

 

[AndyLandy]

Haha, yes!

How many buildings are they demolishing to run Crossrail through the centre of the capital?

I believe (but I'd have to check) that the legislation referred to surface rail. Crossrail is going to be underground, isn't it?

 

[Nym]

Haha, yes!

How many buildings are they demolishing to run Crossrail through the centre of the capital?

I believe (but I'd have to check) that the legislation referred to surface rail. Crossrail is going to be underground, isn't it?

A damn site more than you'd think...

Tottenham Court Road, Bond Street, Paddington Vent Shafts, etc etc.

 

[Manchester77]

I believe (but I'd have to check) that the legislation referred to surface rail. Crossrail is going to be underground, isn't it?

meh kind of. its going to be run like London Overground i think with strict control from TfL but with a contract for who operates it. (i think)

 

[dggar]

I believe this was true in the 18th Century.

18th Century??????

The following appears on Wikipedia, London and Birmingham Railway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_and_Birmingham_Railway

It has often been claimed that initially, owing to the lack of power available to early locomotives,[6] trains from Euston were cable-hauled up the relatively steep incline to Camden by a stationary steam engine. This however was denied by Peter Lecount, one of the L&BR engineers, who wrote in his 'History of the Railway connecting London and Birmingham' (1839), page 48: "It is not because locomotives cannot draw a train of carriages up this incline that a fixed engine and endless rope are used, for they can and have done so, but because the Company are restricted, by their Act of Parliament, from running locomotive engines nearer London than Camden Town." The railway opened from Euston on 20 July 1837; the stationary engines and rope haulage did not commence until 27 September, and handled all trains from 14 October 1837. Until then, and whenever the rope system was stopped for repairs, locomotives hauled the trains up the incline. From November 1843 some expresses were worked without recourse to the rope, and from 15 July 1844 the rope working ceased permanently.

 

[Ivo]

As mentioned before, this comes up once every so often. Regrettably, the scope for a railway M25 is quite limited, not least owing to geographical issues (and NIMBYs), but also because the vast majority of destinations only really have demand to London, or otherwise to other local destinations.

For such a scheme to work, in my opinion it would have to link some of the larger towns on the edge of the commuter belt, with the intention of opening up some of the larger markets in the area. Disregarding the costs of such a plan, which would make Crossrail look like pocket money, I would suggest something like this (starting on the north bank of the Thames and going anti-clockwise as per the NRTT):

Southend - Chelmsford - Stansted Airport - Stevenage - Luton - Aylesbury - Reading - Aldershot - Guildford - Gatwick Airport - Tonbridge - Maidstone - Chatham

...pretty farfetched.

 

[transmanche]

Also I was referring to longer distance traffic rather then a local orbital and was drawing a Parallel with the LGV Interconexxion that bypasses Paris (and forms 3/4s of a orbit)

I suspect that the nearest we'll get to the Paris Interconnector is a connection between HS2 & HS1 and a connection between HS2 and Heathrow (and a possible future HS3).