Ideas for potential Heathrow Southern link services, including Gatwick link.

[si404]

A Northern link ought to be considered as part of a third runway plan, even if it opens later. And by a Northern link, I don't mean to HS2, I mean to Uxbridge, or Wycombe and Watford.

A southern rail access ought not to be dependent on a third runway, but I can see LHR being sneaky and making it part of the R3 package to try and get the controversial expansion through the onslaught of opposition it will get when they finally publish proposals for permission, rather than the pre-planning stuff we've seen so far.

-----

The DfT rules out Paddington to Waterloo services unless a load of hoops are jumped through (para 6.6). But it's explicitly Paddington to Waterloo. It doesn't rule out Waterloo to Hayes & H, nor (more importantly) Paddington to Woking, services.

There's a lot of weaseling in the DfT stuff about light rail/other modes. Oddly there can't be level crossings even if we get a tram.

 

[Meerkat]

I think you’ll find that it is being stated by HMG / DfT that through services from the Southern Link to Paddington are unlikely to be approved / possible due to pathing constraints. With that in mind, it seems most likely that Southern Link trains from both Waterloo and ‘Woking and beyond’ will be terminated in Heathrow’s T5; with the existing stuff (e.g. GWR and Elizabeth line) expected to carry folk onwards to Old Oak for HS2 connections.

The pathing constraints surely only apply for Woking trains being extra trains to Paddington, rather than taking over the HEx paths.

 

[edwin_m]

A Northern link ought to be considered as part of a third runway plan, even if it opens later. And by a Northern link, I don't mean to HS2, I mean to Uxbridge, or Wycombe and Watford.

Extending some Chiltern services to terminate at OOC, as is currently being considered, would provide some of that connectivity although not a through service to Heathrow.

 

[si404]

Extending some Chiltern services to terminate at OOC, as is currently being considered, would provide some of that connectivity although not a through service to Heathrow.

true, and it would be a useful link.

 

[Class 170101]

The pathing constraints surely only apply for Woking trains being extra trains to Paddington, rather than taking over the HEx paths.

That was my thoughts from above. regarding HEX paths to Southampton and Portsmouth because it also connects parts of the southern reigion to HS2 at Old Oak Common.

With local services between Paddington and Waterloo for direct connections to both HS2 and Heathrow rather than as separate services and forcing passengers to change.

 

[edwin_m]

With local services between Paddington and Waterloo for direct connections to both HS2 and Heathrow rather than as separate services and forcing passengers to change.

This would enable journeys such as Richmond/Brentford to OOC but it's an incredibly long way round and those areas have other options to access OOC (or indeed HS2 at Euston instead). Given you can't link everywhere to everywhere else, the priority for through service should be the one which offers the best potential for through journeys, which I believe to be Paddington-OOC-Heathrow-Staines and onto the SW main line.

 

[swt_passenger]

That was my thoughts from above. regarding HEX paths to Southampton and Portsmouth because it also connects parts of the southern reigion to HS2 at Old Oak Common...

None of the published plans, or route studies etc, have Heathrow trains going as far as Southampton or Portsmouth.

 

[si404]

With local services between Paddington and Waterloo for direct connections to both HS2 and Heathrow rather than as separate services and forcing passengers to change.

Let's hear anything that suggests that such risks can be mitigated...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...thern-access-to-heathrow-strategic-objectives

6.6 The current operational modelling suggests that through services between Paddington and Waterloo could not be provided without significant risk being created to operational performance and resilience across the Great Western and South Western networks. It is the department’s assumption that through services between Paddington and Waterloo will not be operated but the scheme may propose such services if supported by robust analysis which shows such risks can be mitigated.

 

[Class 170101]

Let's hear anything that suggests that such risks can be mitigated...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...thern-access-to-heathrow-strategic-objectives

This is what the operational railway needs to manage and the politicans and the DfT need to stop doing. These are operational decisions that the DfT needs to step away from as per Williams review.

 

[Roger100]

Yep, this is to explain what is going in the Development Consent Order. It is not a consultation.
Submission of the DCO this will follow the events, presumably.

Typical timeline from there it will be about two years to go through the DCO process, concurrent with securing funding from DfT & Heathrow, so work starts in 2020 and with the tunnelling and big works on the GWML it will be 5-6 years construction.

The DCO decision date is expected to be in early 2021. The CEMEX aggregate extraction started in 2018 and has a life of 8 years. Since the CEMEX site covers the proposed portal I fail to see how anything can happen at the GWML end until the land is restored.

However I can't find any recent documentation relation to the impact of CEMEX on the western link so who knows?

 

[Bald Rick]

This is what the operational railway needs to manage and the politicans and the DfT need to stop doing. These are operational decisions that the DfT needs to step away from as per Williams review.

Perhaps the operational advice offered to the DfT by operations specialists has been heeded?

The DCO decision date is expected to be in early 2021. The CEMEX aggregate extraction started in 2018 and has a life of 8 years. Since the CEMEX site covers the proposed portal I fail to see how anything can happen at the GWML end until the land is restored.

However I can't find any recent documentation relation to the impact of CEMEX on the western link so who knows?

Perhaps a deal has been done?

Only guesses, of course.

 

[The Ham]

Perhaps the operational advice offered to the DfT by operations specialists has been heeded?

Indeed. Whilst there would be some benefits from running Waterloo - Paddington services the risks associated with it are fairly high. If for no other reason that a lot of the tracks being used are being used by a LOT of trains. This means that if you miss your path at one end you have no path at the other end, it also means that there are few places you can turn around short to make up lost time.

However compare this with Basingstoke and Guildford where the lines are less intensely used, so you are less tightly restrained as to when any given service can run. There's also the ability to turn trains back at Woking of there's problems without upsetting too many people very much. Even if you ran a half hourly shuttle service to Woking and turned everything else back at Heathrow, due to problems, there would be complaints but most people would just accept it and mostly get on with it without too much complaint.

 

[si404]

This is what the operational railway needs to manage and the politicans and the DfT need to stop doing. These are operational decisions that the DfT needs to step away from as per Williams review.

A simple "no, I don't have any idea how this issue will be dealt with" would suffice, rather than attacking the people pointing out the issue.

 

[hwl]

Indeed. Whilst there would be some benefits from running Waterloo - Paddington services the risks associated with it are fairly high. If for no other reason that a lot of the tracks being used are being used by a LOT of trains. This means that if you miss your path at one end you have no path at the other end, it also means that there are few places you can turn around short to make up lost time.

However compare this with Basingstoke and Guildford where the lines are less intensely used, so you are less tightly restrained as to when any given service can run. There's also the ability to turn trains back at Woking of there's problems without upsetting too many people very much. Even if you ran a half hourly shuttle service to Woking and turned everything else back at Heathrow, due to problems, there would be complaints but most people would just accept it and mostly get on with it without too much complaint.

Loop services would be a very bad idea for performance.
With the future T5 service level at 4tph HEx and 2tph Crossrail the question is what to do as regards extending those services/paths in some what shape or form.
The Western link will be to the relief lines so would be a different character service to be joined to the HEx services/paths but this isn't necessarily an issue as it wouldn't be quicker than direct relief line service to Slough Maidenhead Twyford Reading e.g. at Reading or Paddington it is only advertised as a Heathrow Service.
The Crossrail T5 could essentially match the service character stopping pattern wise to the west but only 2 tph.

Do direct T4 service continue to make sense vs a shuttle with both Western and Southern open? If so all Crossrail to T5 and extend all through to Staines as the Waterloo / Windsor line service connection part of the Southern service?

 

[kevin_roche]

Do direct T4 service continue to make sense vs a shuttle with both Western and Southern open? If so all Crossrail to T5 and extend all through to Staines as the Waterloo / Windsor line service connection part of the Southern service?

The Heathrow Southern Railway has suggested that crossrail T5 trains could go to a bay platform at Staines. Their proposed new services to/from Guildford and Basingtsoke would not stop at Staines so that would make sense for local traffic so that users on that line could change at Staines for the airport and other places on the Elizabeth Line. I don't think a single bay could handle much more than 4tph though.
No auto reverse here as that requires the CBTC signalling.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Heathrow Southern Railway has suggested that crossrail T5 trains could go to a bay platform at Staines. Their proposed new services to/from Guildford and Basingtsoke would not stop at Staines so that would make sense for local traffic so that users on that line could change at Staines for the airport and other places on the Elizabeth Line. I don't think a single bay could handle much more than 4tph though.
No auto reverse here as that requires the CBTC signalling.

The Staines bay for terminating through services from Paddington goes back to the Airtrack proposals. Detailed drawings were online at one time, but IIRC everything was taken offline when Airtrack was abandoned.