Ideas for more services like Lumo on the UK rail network?

[Bald Rick]

Friday and Sunday have long been the peak for short-haul flights with Tuesdays and Wednesdays being the quiestest as both business and leisure slow-down on those days. Obviously this excludes holidays.

Saturday is by far the quietest day for domestic flights.

 

[Jozhua]

When people say "I want to see some rail-on-rail competition", that usually translates as "I just want a cheaper fare".

Yep - which is possible, with the right infrastructure.

Yes and that is what is needed to encourage more people to take the train.

It's exactly what happened with the airlines, while the routes were controlled by a few former flag carriers, with limited competition, high operating costs and high ticket prices travelling by air remained something of a luxury, it was only the entry of the budget airlines with a firmer focus on efficiency, much lower operating costs, and significantly lower ticket prices which transformer air travel.

The railway needs this same kind of transformational change, shake-up the industry, its operators and its practices if it's ever going to achieve the kind of passenger growth many people hope to see.

Right, so market forces are an interesting one...

Yes, budget airlines did make savings, but how did they achieve this?
-Utilising quieter, secondary airports if possible.
-Using staff to carry out multiple jobs (a.k.a check in and boarding)
-Flying multiple aircraft in to a given airport at the same time, to reduce the hours they need to run airline-specific facilities.
-High seat occupancy rates and flexible fares to maximize revenue per seat. This also comes in line with not flying as much of a frequent service as perhaps flag carriers would, because this increases the probability of carrying "fresh air".

So, how do we carry these savings out on the railways?
-Quieter, less used routes might be a possibility, but this would easily be negated by the fact that stations in cities are already overcapacity and a longer journey time would result in extra crew costs and a requirement for more trains.
-Reducing staff - railways already don't require "check in" or "boarding" processes. Most of the staff left are pretty much operationally nessacery or needed to guide passengers through larger stations (especially disabled ones).
-High occupancy rates - TOCs need to run a consistent service throughout the day, not only to serve non-peak journeys, but also to make sure trains are in the right place come the evening rush or following day. Also worth noting these off peak services are where the cheap fares are!

To be honest, I don't know how relevant the comparison to airlines is. Airlines are in many ways an operationally expensive, but fairly cheap on capital. Airports and planes are expensive, but there is little fixed infrastructure in-between those destinations besides the odd radio beacon.

Railways on the other hand are expensive in capital, but cheap operationally. Electric railways have pretty low energy costs and staffing costs can pretty much remain static with longer trains.

Unless an operator could build significant infrastructure, there is little they could do in terms of improving efficiency. Regardless, fares are high because of constrained capacity. Treasury makes a killing on repayments from IC operators!

Arguments over construction aside, HS2 will be a very operationally efficient railway when it opens with plenty of capacity. Each train will serve more journeys per day, with less upwards pressure on fares from demand outstripping supply.

 

[Bigman]

But that's my point - how much demand is there that isn't served by driving to a station currently served by LNER extensions? And unless you can extend in marginal time, is it really worth the investment in a whole (I presume 5-car) train to accommodate this extra demand?

I must admit, I can get to Horsforth in the same time as Guiseley, so yes I concede you point with regards to stations that are reasonably close together. Ilkley is not too far off either.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, fair enough. I think that once you get down to the level of wondering whether the seats are lower in mass you need to look at things like the energy needed for the ancillaries on the train and how many people they actually move (so First Class makes it worse because it lowers capacity... even if First Class is what tempts some people into rail in the first place). As such, detailed, accurate, comparisons aren't easy at all.

I think that the general principle of the properly low cost rail option however is very much worthwhile in its expansion. As I've said before the only other operator currently doing low cost all the time and at scale is West Midlands Trains. And their services are low cost by virtue of actually being there primarily for something else, i.e. intermediate stations, not just light staff ratio and stripped back customer experience (no catering or "fancy First"), though that does apply in their case. Northern have come in on the low cost market but again only as a secondary role rather than their 'raison d'etre', and only at small scale. And I think its also almost by definition these days that lower cost will mean "greener" because energy is such a huge cost. That's certainly been the Ryanair experience.

I digress, we're moving away from trip reports.

I intended to post here the rather than in the other Lumo thread that ticket vending machines at Newcastle will not sell the Lumo single to Morpeth. Hopefully something that can be fixed...

I think you've got the nail on the head. The low cost element (to passengers) needs to be consistent, which is why I've often argued for an equivalent to West Midlands Trains between London and Yorkshire to fill that gap.

 

[Envoy]

Cardiff > Newport > Hereford > Shrewsbury > Crewe > Warrington > Preston > Oxenholm > Carlisle > Edinburgh would be my favoured route.
Cardiff > Newport > Gloucester > Cheltenham > Birmingham > Derby > Sheffield > Doncaster > York > Durham > Newcastle would be my second choice.
(It is appalling that Gloucester and the large population in south Wales only have one proper Inter City service = GWR to London).

 

[Ianno87]

I think you've got the nail on the head. The low cost element (to passengers) needs to be consistent, which is why I've often argued for an equivalent to West Midlands Trains between London and Yorkshire to fill that gap.

Which services [that already exist] would form such a service?

WMT only works because it is convenient to string a Euston-Northampton and Northampton-Birmingham service together and flog cheap fares on it at marginal cost.

 

[JonathanH]

Less the fault of the consumer, more the incredibly complex and outdated ticketing system.

Such a cliché.

Cardiff > Newport > Hereford > Shrewsbury > Crewe > Warrington > Preston > Oxenholm > Carlisle > Edinburgh would be my favoured route.
Cardiff > Newport > Gloucester > Cheltenham > Birmingham > Derby > Sheffield > Doncaster > York > Durham > Newcastle would be my second choice.
(It is appalling that Gloucester and the large population in south Wales only have one proper Inter City service = GWR to London).

The first of those could only be achieved by linking up the TPE Manchester to Scotland service and the TfW Cardiff to Manchester service with a connection at Warrington or Preston / Crewe for passengers needing Manchester but it isn't a Lumo-style service, or indeed something for open access. The second is just diverting Cross Country to Cardiff instead of Bristol and Exeter and a matter of which should take precedence.

A Lumo-style service would be something like Cardiff - Crewe - Preston - Edinburgh but we have to recognise that only so many trains can be fitted in between Preston and Edinburgh or between York and Edinburgh. There are already too many trains following each other on the latter route each hour due to the funnel effect of only having two lines over the Scottish border and multiple feeder lines.

When they start running 67+Mk4s on some Cardiff to Manchester service instead of units, will that give South Wales a second proper Inter City service? If Voyagers were used on Cardiff to Nottingham would it suddenly become a proper Inter City service? Seems to be more anti-170 sentiment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which services [that already exist] would form such a service?

WMT only works because it is convenient to string a Euston-Northampton and Northampton-Birmingham service together and flog cheap fares on it at marginal cost.

I think given the distance we're more talking the Crewe service, and that already really exists in the form of the York stopper, it's just operated by LNER rather than a different TOC.

e.g.: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C93366/2021-11-10/detailed

It's an interesting question as to whether people would overall prefer that being operated using 350s (but cheaper) or as it is now, or vice versa on the WCML.

 

[Haywain]

I think given the distance we're more talking the Crewe service, and that already really exists in the form of the York stopper, it's just operated by LNER rather than a different TOC.

And there's Grand Central.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As things stand there is a spare hourly path from Euston to each of Manchester and Brum. If it is decided that Avanti will not, to save money, refill those paths, then that's two that could definitely fit, though they would certainly be primarily abstractive.

 

[TravelDream]

Such a cliché.

Cliche or fact?
Obviously there are some anoraks who know the ticketing system inside out, but for Joe public, it's essentially incomprehensible to know the best deal for going from A to B on all but the shortest commuter routes.
I don't think you'll believe me, but just look how many people use thetrainline.com when they can use the same system on some TOC sites for free. Then there are the split ticketing sites. I tried to save an elderly relative about £50 just pre-Covid, but she wouldn't as she thought it was too complicated to deal with four tickets. These are normal people.

 

[tornado]

SNCF are bringing back the old Corail rolling stock and running routes such as Paris-Lyon for 5 euros but at double the time taken for a TGV. But perhaps they have the advantage of completely separate slow and fast lines going to the same destination.

 

[TravelDream]

Saturday is by far the quietest day for domestic flights.

True. There's strong demand for leisure flights, but it's the weakest day for business meaning domestic runs tend to be quieter.

Friday late afternoon/ evening is the busiest time of the week as there is very strong business and leisure travel

When they start running 67+Mk4s on some Cardiff to Manchester service instead of units, will that give South Wales a second proper Inter City service? If Voyagers were used on Cardiff to Nottingham would it suddenly become a proper Inter City service? Seems to be more anti-170 sentiment.

I've always found the 170s to be pretty reasonable. Crowding can be a big issue on the route, but with XC that's pretty much standard.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

As things stand there is a spare hourly path from Euston to each of Manchester and Brum. If it is decided that Avanti will not, to save money, refill those paths, then that's two that could definitely fit, though they would certainly be primarily abstractive.

What did Lumo have to do to convince the regulator (ORR, right?) that their primary abstraction would be from air, not rail - and would this be possible for these routes?

 

[Ianno87]

As things stand there is a spare hourly path from Euston to each of Manchester and Brum. If it is decided that Avanti will not, to save money, refill those paths, then that's two that could definitely fit, though they would certainly be primarily abstractive.

Well, there would be an interesting counter-case to present to ORR: They have this capacity allocated and are choosing not to use it, so why can't I?

A bit like "use it or lose it" for freight paths.

 

[Bald Rick]

As things stand there is a spare hourly path from Euston to each of Manchester and Brum. If it is decided that Avanti will not, to save money, refill those paths, then that's two that could definitely fit, though they would certainly be primarily abstractive.

The Manchester path is being filled from next month.

 

[yorksrob]

Which services [that already exist] would form such a service?

WMT only works because it is convenient to string a Euston-Northampton and Northampton-Birmingham service together and flog cheap fares on it at marginal cost.

Personally, I'd extend a Thameslink to Doncaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Manchester path is being filled from next month.

As in Avanti are returning to a full 3tph service? Good to hear; it did seem at times like they wouldn't, and things are getting busier.

 

[JonathanH]

I think given the distance we're more talking the Crewe service, and that already really exists in the form of the York stopper, it's just operated by LNER rather than a different TOC.

e.g.: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C93366/2021-11-10/detailed

It's an interesting question as to whether people would overall prefer that being operated using 350s (but cheaper) or as it is now, or vice versa on the WCML.

I think passengers probably see the York slow just as a natural part of the LNER offering.

The Crewe LNR service should be switched to Avanti now in any case to make the situation more consistent with other routes and, assuming the Birmingham 3tph and peak extras are never restored, use the spare capacity in the Avanti fleet once the 807s arrive, with SDO fitted as necessary.

Yes, it would mean higher costs for some but it would also give greater connectivity on the Avanti network. Anyone who wants a LNR fare can go via Birmingham and / or Northampton.

Personally, I'd extend a Thameslink to Doncaster.

That would be insane when the path can be better used for the existing LNER train to York.

 

[Starmill]

Personally, I'd extend a Thameslink to Doncaster.

That would be noticeably slower and much more uncomfortable than what West Midlands Trains have. Unfortunately we're drifting badly from Lumo experiences.

 

[Bald Rick]

As in Avanti are returning to a full 3tph service? Good to hear; it did seem at times like they wouldn't, and things are getting busier.

Yes, for Manchester. All published in timetables and tickets on sale.

 

[Haywain]

Personally, I'd extend a Thameslink to Doncaster.

There's already a choice of 3 operators to Doncaster from London - how complicated do you want to make it?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Paddington to Bristol perhaps?

 

[XAM2175]

What did Lumo have to do to convince the regulator (ORR, right?) that their primary abstraction would be from air, not rail - and would this be possible for these routes?

You may like to read the ORR's decision rationale - noting that it's from May 2106 and thus not necessarily reflective of how such an application would be approached today:

UK Government Web Archive

This Page is [ARCHIVED CONTENT] and shows what the site page https://www.orr.gov.uk/east-coast-main-line looked like on 1 Dec 2025 at 05:59:56

www.orr.gov.uk

(noting also that what we know as Lumo today is referred to in the decision as "East Coast Trains Limited" and "FirstGroup Edinburgh")

 

[RH Liner]

I was going to maybe find a way around the outskirts, connect to Metrolink and be all smart about it, but doing some research that looks just as impossible. However, it did make me realise we could include Sheffield and Leeds instead, and connect up to the WCML at Carlisle to reach Glasgow that way.

And call it the Thames-Clyde Express

 

[Ianno87]

Personally, I'd extend a Thameslink to Doncaster.

That's not free. That's at least 2 extra 12-car 700s, minimum (which incidentally don't exist anyway)

It would only really make sense if:
A) There's track capacity for it (including a 12-car capable platform at Doncaster)
B) The Thameslink core can handle the presentation risk of a train all the way from Doncaster (purely so some Yorkshire folk can have a cheap ride to the capital)
C) Retford and possibly Newark/Grantham lose their LNER services to avoid over-provison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2021 ==

There's already a choice of 3 operators to Doncaster from London - how complicated do you want to make it?

Doing a random search - in 24 hours time I can get an Advance single from Doncaster to London on Hull Trains for £27.50. Pretty good deal in my eyes.

 

[Haywain]

Doing a random search - in 24 hours time I can get an Advance single from Doncaster to London on Hull Trains for £27.50. Pretty good deal in my eyes.

I can find cheaper with both of the other operators!

 

[yorksrob]

That's not free. That's at least 2 extra 12-car 700s, minimum (which incidentally don't exist anyway)

It would only really make sense if:
A) There's track capacity for it (including a 12-car capable platform at Doncaster)
B) The Thameslink core can handle the presentation risk of a train all the way from Doncaster (purely so some Yorkshire folk can have a cheap ride to the capital)
C) Retford and possibly Newark/Grantham lose their LNER services to avoid over-provison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2021 ==



Doing a random search - in 24 hours time I can get an Advance single from Doncaster to London on Hull Trains for £27.50. Pretty good deal in my eyes.

I can find cheaper with both of the other operators!

Then get some of those smiley trains to run it.

To be honest, im not that fused you can get a AP for tuppence hapenny. I'd like a bit of flexibility and I'm stuck and tired of getting screwed over for it.

My employer purchased me a "super off peak" single from London to Wakefield the other day for work. Personally I don't see anything "super" or "off-peak" about that fare. Super extortionate maybe.

 

[Ianno87]

Then get some of those smiley trains to run it.

Again? Who is paying? Where are the paths across Welwyn coming from? You don't make a cheap service by using trains you otherwise don't need.

Notwithstanding the fact that the smiley trains are fast on their way to becoming razor blades.

To be honest, im not that fused you can get a AP for tuppence hapenny. I'd like a bit of flexibility and I'm stuck and tired of getting screwed over for it.

Or "planning in Advance" as it's otherwise known. Like I have already shown, you can be flexible enough to be booking to travel tomorrow, and still be getting a good deal.

My employer purchased me a "super off peak" single from London to Wakefield the other day for work. Personally I don't see anything "super" or "off-peak" about that fare. Super extortionate maybe.

Did you tell you're employer that? Presumably it must be value for money for them, otherwise you are openly losing your employer money by spending more on the ticket than the journey is worth.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Then get some of those smiley trains to run it.

WAGN did of course look at running smiley trains from London to Doncaster (before they acquired the smile...) but were turned down.