Ideas for more services like Lumo on the UK rail network?

[yorksrob]

*whisper voice* you can as long as you ask for a single to Leeds. You can then just exit at Wakefield Westgate if you want to.

Oh yes. How do they justify that then ?

 

[Bald Rick]

If that were available on its own to Wakefield I'd agree with you. It's alas not.

I missed that subtlety. Apologies.

Yes, that a modern car would easily do it for £60 worth of fuel (with 5 people in it if you want). And is as flexible as an Anytime Return. And nobody, literally nobody, accounts car use as anything other than fuel-ish per journey and the rest as a near-fixed, sunk cost.

I’d still rather spend £120 return for central London to Wakefield by train - flexibly, and generally reliably - than £60 in fuel and have the rigours of the M1. Clearly many other people do, or there wouldn’t be as many London -Wakefield return tickets sold.

 

[Starmill]

Oh yes. How do they justify that then ?

Ostensibly it's a trial of setting single fares at 50% of the return and obolishing those. Leeds was included while Wakefield wasn't. So anyone in Wakefield gets the short straw unless they're an enthusiast or ''in the know". Same goes for London to Durham single costing nearly double the London to Newcastle single.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d still rather spend £120 return for central London to Wakefield by train - flexibly, and generally reliably - than £60 in fuel and have the rigours of the M1. Clearly many other people do, or there wouldn’t be as many London -Wakefield return tickets sold.

I wonder if the high usage of Advances on LNER suggests it's little more than a fare cap to most?

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if the high usage of Advances on LNER suggests it's little more than a fare cap to most?

That's how VTEC saw it. Their leaked business plan from the end of their first year identified it as a constraint on yield at weekends, in other words demand was enough that they would have increased Advance prices on weekends and bank holidays if they had been able to charge more for two of them than thr Super Off Peak Return.

The same business plan however noted the 1% fall in numbers in the first full financial year of operation (but a large % rise in revenue).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same business plan however noted the 1% fall in numbers in the first full financial year of operation (but a large % rise in revenue).

Sounds exactly the same as the VTWC business plan - charge more to fewer people and make more overall.

 

[yorksrob]

Ostensibly it's a trial of setting single fares at 50% of the return and obolishing those. Leeds was included while Wakefield wasn't. So anyone in Wakefield gets the short straw unless they're an enthusiast or ''in the know". Same goes for London to Durham single costing nearly double the London to Newcastle single.

Ah yes, I remember reading about that !

 

[Shred Metal]

Eurostar is the original Lumo.

Build on what already exists. More services to Amsterdam or Schipol, Frankfurt, Cologne/North Rhine area.

Attack the dominance of the short-haul-London-to-Europe market with the already solid infrastructure, the already healthy demand and a huge opportunity to offset many many air miles of carbon.

[edit: not entirely as specified by the OP, but definitely within reason!]

 

[30907]

In the 6 pages of this thread, lots of interesting stuff, but how many airline-competitive new route have we come up with? London-Glasgow yes, are there any others with a significant air market?

 

[JonathanH]

In the 6 pages of this thread, lots of interesting stuff, but how many airline-competitive new route have we come up with? London-Glasgow yes, are there any others with a significant air market?

Bristol to Newcastle is a level down from London to Scottish Central Belt but the railway being truly airline competitive is out of the question really. That said, it would be interesting to know what could be achieved if it were possible to run Bristol to Newcastle non stop missing out the slow bits through Birmingham / Sheffield / Leeds etc.

Realistically, London is so much larger than any other place that no other internal UK airline flow could hope to have frequencies as high as London to Glasgow or London to Edinburgh. The railway is able to put on fast trains from London to the West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester conurbations already.

 

[Haywain]

Bristol to Newcastle is a level down from London to Scottish Central Belt but the railway being truly airline competitive is out of the question really. That said, it would be interesting to know what could be achieved if it were possible to run Bristol to Newcastle non stop missing out the slow bits through Birmingham / Sheffield / Leeds etc.

Realistically, London is so much larger than any other place that no other internal UK airline flow could hope to have frequencies as high as London to Glasgow or London to Edinburgh. The railway is able to put on fast trains from London to the West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester conurbations already.

What also makes Edinburgh an attractive destination for Lumo is that it is a major tourist destination - this shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[miklcct]

And nobody, literally nobody, accounts car use as anything other than fuel-ish per journey and the rest as a near-fixed, sunk cost.

I doubt this statement - the accounting is done when considering if I buy a car or not. Once the car is bought it's a sunk cost. I'm considering if I will buy a car to worth my next year's predicted travel, with the comparison to off-peak public transport fares (including the use of off-peak train tickets and advance tickets if suitable)

I find WCML Off Peaks borderline-reasonable (and they are about 10% lower than other routes for historical reasons). Others not. And other than the few at 50% of return, Off Peak Singles are not reasonable.

Most off-peak singles are reasonable in my view with the exception of some ultra-short one-stop journeys or some flows originating from/to London.

 

[Starmill]

I doubt this statement - the accounting is done when considering if I buy a car or not.

More than 80% of the population has direct car access. That's not a number which is reducing, of is likely to be reduced under current policies.

In other words very few people need to travel and have no way to do so by car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2021 ==

Most off-peak singles are reasonable in my view with the exception of some ultra-short one-stop journeys or some flows originating from/to London.

Really? What about a single from Wakefield to London?

 

[miklcct]

Really? What about a single from Wakefield to London?

This is one of the relative few journeys where an off peak single is ridiculously priced. Most non-London based off peak single are reasonably priced.

Let's say York to London off peak single as an example. The any permitted price is ridiculous but the Grand Central only ticket is reasonable. The speed of both operators are the same.

However, you need to factor in congestion charge and ultra low emission zone charge into car cost in London as well.

 

[Starmill]

This is one of the relative few journeys where an off peak single is ridiculously priced. Most non-London based off peak single are reasonably priced.

OK then what about Stalybridge to Chorley, Greenfield to Bradford, Fratton to Guildford, Birmingham to Leeds, East Garforth to York, or University (Birmingham) to Cheltenham Spa?

 

[miklcct]

OK then what about Stalybridge to Chorley, Greenfield to Bradford, Fratton to Guildford, Birmingham to Leeds, East Garforth to York, or University (Birmingham) to Cheltenham Spa?

Thanks for pointing out these fares outside London - I'm so used to the cheap flexible fares along the south coast, do return journeys most of the times (as I seldom find the train is fast in one direction but not as fast as other public transport in the opposite - most singles I use are for local journeys such as Bournemouth - Poole) combined with the use of different kinds of tickets and the widespread availability of railcards to have an impression that train travel is cheap.