Idea: Class 365

[Flyingsprinter]

Sorry if this has already be discussed, but with a number of Class 365’s coming of lease soon and nowhere for them to go, would converting them to bi-mode, or to DEMU’s be worthwhile and doable? Would be far easier then the stupid/crazy idea of converting 158’s to bi-mode surely? With too many EMU’s and nowhere near enough DMU’s conversions do provide an answer.

 

[bramling]

Sorry if this has already be discussed, but with a number of Class 365’s coming of lease soon and nowhere for them to go, would converting them to bi-mode, or to DEMU’s be worthwhile and doable? Would be far easier then the stupid/crazy idea of converting 158’s to bi-mode surely? With too many EMU’s and nowhere near enough DMU’s conversions do provide an answer.

Two snags:

1) We are only talking about 21x 365s off lease, so a lot of design work for a small number of units. With the 319s there are potentially 86 of them. If Networkers are going to be converted, there would be greater economies of scale from doing the 465s, some of which have more modern traction packages too.
2) GN will need the 21x 365s back when the Thameslink experiment becomes politically untenable.

All in all it's a nice idea, but there would be issues to work through for sure.

 

[43096]

Two snags:

1) We are only talking about 21x 365s off lease, so a lot of design work for a small number of units. With the 319s there are potentially 86 of them. If Networkers are going to be converted, there would be greater economies of scale from doing the 465s, some of which have more modern traction packages too.
2) GN will need the 21x 365s back when the Thameslink experiment becomes politically untenable.

All in all it's a nice idea, but there would be issues to work through for sure.

And with two motor cars in each set there isn't much space under them to put the engines in. One of the advantages of the 319s (and indeed 455s) is that they have a single motor coach with space to fit engines under other cars.

 

[InTheEastMids]

It's great that in just a few years, we've gone from trying to work out how to make EMUs out of DMUs (e.g. 22x Project Thor) to the point where it now seems wholly reasonable to see an EMU somewhere and instantly be sizing it up for feasibility to a DMU conversion.

I'm just off to Ladbrokes, I think it's worth £10 on the that somebody one day makes a serious proposal to convert 230s or 769s back into EMUs.

 

[gazthomas]

It's great that in just a few years, we've gone from trying to work out how to make EMUs out of DMUs (e.g. 22x Project Thor) to the point where it now seems wholly reasonable to see an EMU somewhere and instantly be sizing it up for feasibility to a DMU conversion.

I'm just off to Ladbrokes, I think it's worth £10 on the that somebody one day makes a serious proposal to convert 230s or 769s back into EMUs.

EMUs typically have a longer life (at least in continetal Europe) so this theoretically possible

 

[bramling]

It's great that in just a few years, we've gone from trying to work out how to make EMUs out of DMUs (e.g. 22x Project Thor) to the point where it now seems wholly reasonable to see an EMU somewhere and instantly be sizing it up for feasibility to a DMU conversion.

I'm just off to Ladbrokes, I think it's worth £10 on the that somebody one day makes a serious proposal to convert 230s or 769s back into EMUs.

It's what happens when hardly an DMUs are built for a decade yet demand keeps growing...

One does feel a little sorry for Vivarail - it was their idea yet others are now proposing the same concept just better. Having said that, we wait to see how any of the conversions work out in reality - the concept could melt away very quickly if reliability turns out to be below par. Old trains don't like being stored for long periods of time and nor do they take well to being hacked around.

 

[43096]

It's great that in just a few years, we've gone from trying to work out how to make EMUs out of DMUs (e.g. 22x Project Thor) to the point where it now seems wholly reasonable to see an EMU somewhere and instantly be sizing it up for feasibility to a DMU conversion.

I'm just off to Ladbrokes, I think it's worth £10 on the that somebody one day makes a serious proposal to convert 230s or 769s back into EMUs.

No, it isn't great is it? These projects are a damning indictment on the railway's inability to string the wires up and then an inability to argue the case as to why OWUP* MUs are a bad thing.

*Over Weight Under Powered

 

[D365]

... and nor do they take well to being hacked around.

As is evidenced by the 769 project so far!

 

[Flyingsprinter]

And with two motor cars in each set there isn't much space under them to put the engines in. One of the advantages of the 319s (and indeed 455s) is that they have a single motor coach with space to fit engines under other cars.

455s wouldn’t be such a good idea as they don’t have toilets and have a max speed of only 75. 317’s maybe in a few years? But they don’t offer much different to the 319’s in terms of specifications really. 317’s are much better units on the inside imo. Would rather have a 317 then a northern 319.

 

[Class313:)]

err 365s dont have any 'free' space as far as i'm aware. They would be better off working the services the Northern 319s work once they've blown themselves to bits with a diesel explosion . And as far as I'm aware the Thameslink/GN link isnt about to go pear-shaped

 

[D365]

317’s maybe in a few years?

317s are going straight to scrap, Angel Trains won't be doing anything with them. 722 is a guaranteed demic.

 

[Class313:)]

722? whats that. And as for the 317s, no-one is going to take them with available 365s

 

[Class465fan]

Please! No more bi-modes ok? And not to mention they lack free space to be fitted with an diesel engine.

 

[43096]

455s wouldn’t be such a good idea as they don’t have toilets and have a max speed of only 75. 317’s maybe in a few years? But they don’t offer much different to the 319’s in terms of specifications really. 317’s are much better units on the inside imo. Would rather have a 317 then a northern 319.

455s would be ideal as "metro" units, reduced to 3 cars, on services like the Exmouth/Barnstaple/Paignton "triangle of doom". They'd be of similar performance to a Class 150. Adding a toilet into one of the driving trailers should be an easy conversion - it's exactly what has been done with the Class 320.

 

[Class313:)]

Also on the many diesel Northern metro routes which are partially electrified but necessitate the use of Sprinters

 

[D365]

And as for the 317s, no-one is going to take them with available 365s

Or the 321s, which will be easier to cascade.

 

[Class313:)]

365s are better quality, and I think the DfT would like to get rid of 2nd gen. BR stock

 

[MatthewRead]

455s would be ideal as "metro" units, reduced to 3 cars, on services like the Exmouth/Barnstaple/Paignton "triangle of doom". They'd be of similar performance to a Class 150. Adding a toilet into one of the driving trailers should be an easy conversion - it's exactly what has been done with the Class 320.

What about 230's I did once suggest them

 

[Flyingsprinter]

365s are better quality, and I think the DfT would like to get rid of 2nd gen. BR stock

Hence the point of this thread. Trying to think outside the old box since dft seem very reluctant to invest in any new much needed dmu’s. Would be such a waste of a good unit if half of them end up in storage.
In a few years we’ll be in another desperate situation for dmu’s since there has been no look to the future, and if they can learn from what’s happened with the 319 conversions it could be a short term answer. Rather have a bi-mode then no mode! We’d all rather have brand new dmu’s but realistically that won’t happen until the sprinters are 100% dead.

 

[D365]

I doubt 21 units will make it a worthwhile investment for Eversholt, and the 465s will be completely knackered when they are replaced. A “321 Flex” (Class 771?) will be far more likely, if the 769 even works out.

 

[Class313:)]

For gods sake why doesnt the DfT electrify the whole northern core. Then we wouldnt be in this little mess

 

[class387]

722? whats that. And as for the 317s, no-one is going to take them with available 365s

317722 was a Cl317 demonstrator that turned out to be quite unreliable.

 

[Class313:)]

demonstrator of what?

 

[Class465fan]

For gods sake why doesnt the DfT electrify the whole northern core. Then we wouldnt be in this little mess

Blame that useless idiot Failing Grayling that brought us into this mess by scrapping the electrifications just for his stupid bi-mode project that would probably go pear-shape.

 

[Class313:)]

Hell yeah. I dont really like Tories in general but Patrick McLoughlin was decent

 

[SEClass375]

If everything except for branch lines was electrified, we wouldn't have this problem.

 

[Class465fan]

indeed

 

[Class313:)]

exactly

 

[D365]

If everything except for branch lines was electrified, we wouldn't have this problem.

That’s more a long-term policy issue to be quite honest. Little will be achieved with hindsight.

 

[Non Multi]

Blame that useless idiot Failing Grayling that brought us into this mess by scrapping the electrifications just for his stupid bi-mode project that would probably go pear-shape.

The current problems were caused by a decision not to electrify lines during 1998-2010, then exacerbated by cancelling (or refusing to order) new DMUs after the Govt. was persuaded to revive electrification.