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Hypothetical - Oldham loop line replacement route

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Worm

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So it’s well known in Greater Manchester that the Oldham loop line was sadly replaced by the Metrolink (some of the original alignment is still intact at Mumps after abandonment).

Hypothetically a decision has been made to create a new replacement heavy rail line to Oldham town centre from Manchester (either station) to link up with the Rochdale line again.

Where could an entirely new line be placed to relink Oldham to the main line network from Manchester?
 
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Mcr Warrior

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So it’s well known in Greater Manchester that the Oldham loop line was sadly replaced by the Metrolink (some of the original alignment is still intact at Mumps after abandonment).
Sadly replaced? Better service provision now by Metrolink, IMHO.

If you really do want to re-connect Oldham to the national rail network, is it still possible to re-instate a connection Eastwards from the old Middleton Junction?
 

Peregrine 4903

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Sadly replaced? Better service provision now by Metrolink, IMHO.
I suspect he/she is probably more referring to journey times and passenger comfort. I do personally agree that tram is poor subsitute for heavy rail in my personal experience, but then again the oldham loop conversion seems to have been a big success, plus not exactly a whole lot of spare capacity in Manchester for an oldham train service at this moment in time.

I don't know the area so I can't answer OP's question, would be cool to see though.
 

Worm

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Sadly replaced? Better service provision now by Metrolink, IMHO.

If you really do want to re-connect Oldham to the national rail network, is it still possible to re-instate a connection Eastwards from the old Middleton Junction?
Sad from an enthusiast perspective as it puts me miles away from the nearest lines at Greenfield station or Moston.
 

tbtc

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I suppose it depends on what you are trying to solve.

If it's "a link from Manchester to Oldham" then what would you be offering that a six minute tram frequency doesn't? A significantly faster journey time? How frequent would it have to be for people to swap a six minute tram frequency and "half hour" journey time? (I say "half hour", since the tram has a lot more stations in both Oldham and central Manchester than heavy rail could provide, so you can count "King Street to Victoria" if you want to make the tram more like twenty five minutes or you can count "Mumps to Deansgate" if you want to make the tram more like forty minutes - with the proviso that heavy rail wouldn't penetrate either centre as well)

The great thing about Oldham (like Sheffield) is it's proximity to the wilderness - but the fact that the population density is so low as you go slightly beyond it counts against it in public transport terms. So would it be just a Manchester - Oldham route (and no further)?

I've suggested before that, if we are building HS3/ NPR to a brand new alignment, with lots of tunnels, then there's no reason to follow the same Victorian routes that current trans-pennine trains use - we could go in a pretty straight line from Manchester to Leeds. And, instead of spending billions on a slower route so that you can tick off Bradford too, you could follow a pretty straight line (e.g. https://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between-manchester_-england-and-leeds_-england.htm) with stops at Oldham, Brighouse and maybe Gomersal Park & Ride - that would provide a much faster route that the proposed Bradford line but allow the new railway to serve new places and provide new links (rathe than just shaving some time off existing direct journeys)

So, for me, serving Oldham involves either "mega-expensive high speed trans-pennine route" or "do nothing, stick with the high frequency tram service" - there doesn't seem any middle ground, since you'd be spending a lot of money for only marginal benefit.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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So it’s well known in Greater Manchester that the Oldham loop line was sadly replaced by the Metrolink (some of the original alignment is still intact at Mumps after abandonment).

Hypothetically a decision has been made to create a new replacement heavy rail line to Oldham town centre from Manchester (either station) to link up with the Rochdale line again.

Where could an entirely new line be placed to relink Oldham to the main line network from Manchester?

Why though??? It’s a ridiculous idea.

Metrolink is far more frequent, far more reliable and is very successful. Whilst the journey time is longer it has other benefits like frequency which out weigh any negatives imo
 

PR1Berske

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Why though??? It’s a ridiculous idea.

Metrolink is far more frequent, far more reliable and is very successful. Whilst the journey time is longer it has other benefits like frequency which out weigh any negatives imo

I agree. Metrolink conversion of the Oldham line has been a success. Capacity on heavy rail into Victoria is at a premium as it is, it's no coincidence that many of the "Victoria-n" lines are being considered for conversion in time: Atherton, Wigan, etc.
 

Purple Orange

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Good to read the favourable comments for Metrolink over heavy rail. For me there is no question that metrolink is a better system and if I could convert my local line to Metrolink, I would. Unfortunately my line is also known as the WCML.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Good to read the favourable comments for Metrolink over heavy rail. For me there is no question that metrolink is a better system and if I could convert my local line to Metrolink, I would. Unfortunately my line is also known as the WCML.

Though its possible that some lines may become tram-train i.e. local services (not the WCML) replaced by metrolink.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Good to read the favourable comments for Metrolink over heavy rail. For me there is no question that metrolink is a better system and if I could convert my local line to Metrolink, I would. Unfortunately my line is also known as the WCML.
I don't understand this comment. So are you saying you would like to travel by tram from Euston to Manchester? I can't imagine anything more hellish.

I think trams have a purpose but they shouldn't be used to replace every heavy rail lines just for the sake of it.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I don't understand this comment. So are you saying you would like to travel by tram from Euston to Manchester? I can't imagine anything more hellish.

I think trams have a purpose but they shouldn't be used to replace every heavy rail lines just for the sake of it.

basically replace the local stoppers with trams but thats not possible on the west coast main line obvoisly

Trams provide frequencies not possible with rail. They are good to replace services within to the areas of wigan, bolton, bury, rochdale, ashton etc
 

Peregrine 4903

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basically replace the local stoppers with trams but thats not possible on the west coast main line obvoisly

Trams provide frequencies not possible with rail. They are good to replace services within to the areas of wigan, bolton, bury, rochdale, ashton etc
I disagree with the whole trams provide frequencies not possible with rail. Rail can provide the same frequencies as shown in London, you just need to cough up an awful lot more money.

For example, an expansive tram network in London wouldn't be able to hande the crowds that the underground handles. Trams may be suitable for places like Manchester, but doesn't mean they should be used everywhere which seems to me to be the common thinking on this forum. Journey times should be a consideration as well. My one time using metrolink, it was convenient but painfully slow. The underground or heavy rail are much better.
 

Purple Orange

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I don't understand this comment. So are you saying you would like to travel by tram from Euston to Manchester? I can't imagine anything more hellish.

I think trams have a purpose but they shouldn't be used to replace every heavy rail lines just for the sake of it.

No, a heavy rail line converted to metrolink, like the Altrincham, Bury, & East Didsbury line for the purpose of having a much higher frequency in to Manchester. London has nothing to do with it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I disagree with the whole trams provide frequencies not possible with rail. Rail can provide the same frequencies as shown in London, you just need to cough up an awful lot more money.

For example, an expansive tram network in London wouldn't be able to hande the crowds that the underground handles. Trams may be suitable for places like Manchester, but doesn't mean they should be used everywhere which seems to me to be the common thinking on this forum. Journey times should be a consideration as well. My one time using metrolink, it was convenient but painfully slow. The underground or heavy rail are much better.
I’m not sure why you are drawing the comparison to London’s network - the premise is based on the network in Manchester.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I disagree with the whole trams provide frequencies not possible with rail. Rail can provide the same frequencies as shown in London, you just need to cough up an awful lot more money.

For example, an expansive tram network in London wouldn't be able to hande the crowds that the underground handles. Trams may be suitable for places like Manchester, but doesn't mean they should be used everywhere which seems to me to be the common thinking on this forum. Journey times should be a consideration as well. My one time using metrolink, it was convenient but painfully slow. The underground or heavy rail are much better.

well they can also provide more stops. The reason why London Underground has a good frequency is that it is segregated and all trains run the same speed and the same acceleration. Manchester has too many trains that run different accelerations, different stopping patterns and different speeds which limits capacity for frequency. Metrolink can run frequently as all the trams are the same, they call at the same stops and all accelerate the same.
 

Peregrine 4903

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No, a heavy rail line converted to metrolink, like the Altrincham, Bury, & East Didsbury line for the purpose of having a much higher frequency in to Manchester. London has nothing to do with it.
I was joking slightly with my comment. I understand what you mean, I can see the argument for stuff like Bury and Oldham, but I think converting something like the CLC would be very short sighted, and not looking at the overall bigger picture of journey times and connectivity.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I was joking slightly with my comment. I understand what you mean, I can see the argument for stuff like Bury and Oldham, but I think converting something like the CLC would be very short sighted, and not looking at the overall bigger picture of journey times and connectivity.

CLC is a tram-train proposal i think NOT a conversion
 

Peregrine 4903

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well they can also provide more stops. The reason why London Underground has a good frequency is that it is segregated and all trains run the same speed and the same acceleration. Manchester has too many trains that run different accelerations, different stopping patterns and different speeds which limits capacity for frequency. Metrolink can run frequently as all the trams are the same, they call at the same stops and all accelerate the same.
I understand, I still think though it leads to poor journey times and Manchester's rail network could seriously do with some serious funding to allow the desired frequencies to run on these routes without having to convert all its suburban routes to metrolink.
 

Purple Orange

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I was joking slightly with my comment. I understand what you mean, I can see the argument for stuff like Bury and Oldham, but I think converting something like the CLC would be very short sighted, and not looking at the overall bigger picture of journey times and connectivity.
The CLC, if converted to metrolink, would be a light rail metro line rather than anything akin to the street-running tram lines. It requires the underground tunnel in Manchester to be constructed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I understand, I still think though it leads to poor journey times and Manchester's rail network could seriously do with some serious funding to allow the desired frequencies to run on these routes without having to convert all its suburban routes to metrolink.
Outside the city centre, the metrolink lines act as a metro. Only in the city centre do they become slow.
 

Peregrine 4903

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The CLC, if converted to metrolink, would be a light rail metro line rather than anything akin to the street-running tram lines. It requires the underground tunnel in Manchester to be constructed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Outside the city centre, the metrolink lines act as a metro. Only in the city centre do they become slow.
You'd still be losing an important diversionary route to Liverpool from Manchester and Warrington Central and Widnes lose their long distance services. A very poor trade off, in my view.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I understand, I still think though it leads to poor journey times and Manchester's rail network could seriously do with some serious funding to allow the desired frequencies to run on these routes without having to convert all its suburban routes to metrolink.

Some will be tram-trains. One of the reasons why so many people use transport in London is frequency not journey times. Basically you can just turn up and go, yet up north some places barely get 2tph.

You'd still be losing an important diversionary route to Liverpool from Manchester and Warrington Central and Widnes lose their long distance services. A very poor trade off, in my view.

Its not going to be closed. It would be a tram-train i.e a tram service replacing the existing local service but remain open for express services to use.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

See here for the plans for Metrolink. It labels it Metro/Tram-train so it wouldn't be the same as Oldham Loop line is

https://downloads.ctfassets.net/nv7...35/Delivery_Plan_2021-2026_Jan_2021_Final.pdf (page 24)
 

Peregrine 4903

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Some will be tram-trains. One of the reasons why so many people use transport in London is frequency not journey times. Basically you can just turn up and go, yet up north some places barely get 2tph.



Its not going to be closed. It would be a tram-train i.e a tram service replacing the existing local service but remain open for express services to use.
I benefit personally from it in London. But stuff like the Victoria Line has very quick journey times as well as being frequent. I doubt metrolink has anything remotely similar. You have Thameslink, the ELL, Southeastern metro services amongst other.

I could be completely wrong, but I don't think a tram system will come close to any of the example I've listed above.
 

Purple Orange

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You'd still be losing an important diversionary route to Liverpool from Manchester and Warrington Central and Widnes lose their long distance services. A very poor trade off, in my view.

Not at all. We are talking about 2040 by which point NPR should be on the way and it is possible to run semi-fast services in conjunction too.
Some will be tram-trains. One of the reasons why so many people use transport in London is frequency not journey times. Basically you can just turn up and go, yet up north some places barely get 2tph.



Its not going to be closed. It would be a tram-train i.e a tram service replacing the existing local service but remain open for express services to use.
It would not be a tram-train if converted. For the CLC to be converted, the Manchester tunnel needs to be constructed, which would link to either the Glossop & Rose Hill line and/or the Bury line. That means we would see light rail metro trains on the route. Tram-trains would run on existing metrolink lines that share sections of this metro line, to Ashton, Middleton, Manchester Airport via Wythenshawe.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Not at all. We are talking about 2040 by which point NPR should be on the way and it is possible to run semi-fast services in conjunction too.

It would not be a tram-train if converted. For the CLC to be converted, the Manchester tunnel needs to be constructed, which would link to either the Glossop & Rose Hill line and/or the Bury line. That means we would see light rail metro trains on the route. Tram-trains would run on existing metrolink lines that share sections of this metro line, to Ashton, Middleton, Manchester Airport via Wythenshawe.
Well until NPR is constructed, it should not happen though.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I benefit personally from it in London. But stuff like the Victoria Line has very quick journey times as well as being frequent. I doubt metrolink has anything remotely similar. You have Thameslink, the ELL, Southeastern metro services amongst other.

I could be completely wrong, but I don't think a tram system will come close to any of the example I've listed above.

Metrolink has a high frequency of every 6-12 Minutes which is a vast improvement on the previous rail service.

Remember those systems all don't have to put with the problems that Manchester has with its rail system
 

Purple Orange

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I benefit personally from it in London. But stuff like the Victoria Line has very quick journey times as well as being frequent. I doubt metrolink has anything remotely similar. You have Thameslink, the ELL, Southeastern metro services amongst other.

I could be completely wrong, but I don't think a tram system will come close to any of the example I've listed above.
That level of investment is not happening outside of London though. My line runs in to Piccadilly and I look at the service on the Altrincham, East Didsbury, Oldham & Bury lines and I see a far better service than what I get on my line.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Not at all. We are talking about 2040 by which point NPR should be on the way and it is possible to run semi-fast services in conjunction too.

It would not be a tram-train if converted. For the CLC to be converted, the Manchester tunnel needs to be constructed, which would link to either the Glossop & Rose Hill line and/or the Bury line. That means we would see light rail metro trains on the route. Tram-trains would run on existing metrolink lines that share sections of this metro line, to Ashton, Middleton, Manchester Airport via Wythenshawe.

Well until NPR is constructed, it should not happen though.

Thats not how i interpreted it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Metro/Tram-Train means metro or a tram-train
 

Peregrine 4903

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That level of investment is not happening outside of London though. My line runs in to Piccadilly and I look at the service on the Altrincham, East Didsbury, Oldham & Bury lines and I see a far better service than what I get on my line.
I really do hope Manchester can get that level of investment for its heavy rail system. It clearly needs it, badly.
 
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