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Hydrogen is not the panacea

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Bill57p9

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I don't have data to hand, but from local experience I would estimate that Saltcoats closes in the order of high single figures a year, mainly concentrated in winter.
I have seen Hunterston freight still operating whilst the (electric) passenger service is suspended hence I am under the understanding that it is only closed to electric traction.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Interesting that you should say that - do you have stats? The data I have is that a fuel cell is a more efficient mechanism to store and discharge electricity than a battery but I can't lay my hands on it to share. Not that there is enough real-life data to be confident in it anyway.
batteries are 70-80% range hydrogen is 30%. With the latter you have energy cost to produce it, then to compress it, then to convert it into electricity through fuel cell

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Really? Have you seen the plots of the rate of increase in green electicity in this country vs the rise is use? We're due to converge at some point in the next few years in both keep rising at their current rate
agree that wind and to a lesser extent solar are increasing in output every year and no doubt the green evangelists will be able to lay claim to some moment in time when they supplied all our power the acid test is though is being able to do it continuously 247 365 and we are way off that. If you add in nuclear and the totally non renewable biomass we may be able to get there for a few more days a year but even then it wont be 247 365. The reality is gas is going to be needed as standby power at least for several more decades there is no getting away from it. Then factor in the extra energy EVs will require topped up by heat pumps and we will need to build out even more renewable generation.

So to keep on topic we can't actually afford to divert any energy to hydrogen production for the foreseeable future except other than as a way to avoid windfarms being switched off because there is insufficient transmission capacity or demand to absorb available output.
 

Class 317

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Battery round trip efficiency is between circa 80 and 95% depending on battery type and application.

Hydrogen is 35% round trip efficiency. 30% is lost in the electrolysis process and fuel cell efficiency to convert back to electricity is around 50%. Loses from storage venting would likely add to this inefficiency as being a very small and corrosive element it is hard to store.

On both a carbon emissions reduction and economic basis electrification and battery power for rural routes makes more sense. In 2035 when we get to a net zero grid it still makes sense to use the increasing supply to replace as much fossil fuel use as possible in other sectors including rail by using the renewable generation as efficiency as possible. Excess electricity should be used for replacing existing hydrogen use before it is moved to new areas.

As net zero is set for 2050 you can forget thinking on solutions for far north etc for a couple of decades given the extremely small emissions versus other lines.
 

The Ham

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Whilst I am reluctant to suggest any argument against electrification, I really cannot think of circumstances that would justify the electrification of the likes of the West Highland of Far North Lines.

An edge case, however one that would need a solution - it may well be that it's something other than battery. However even if it was Hydrogen, that's not a good reason for it to be used elsewhere.

Given the weather the WHL can experience, I can't see electrification being reliable even if it were fitted.
Taking the example of Dawlish: given how often the sea wall at Saltcoats is closed to electric traction, how resilient would an electrified Dawlish be?

It's the sort of thing where batteries could work.

So I believe there will always be a requirement for some portable energy and batteries have their limits: I go back to WHL: how far does battery technology need to evolve until it would be credible to hop between power sources, accepting that much of the line is some distance from the sort of electricity supply that would be required for flash charging?

Indeed, however these sorts of lines tend to be few and far between, as such, even if hydrogen is useful for them they are going to be limited in number.

One thing which could work, is the use of line side batteries being charged from little more than a household supply to then provide a lot of power when there is a train passing as it's not all that frequent.

Hydrogen is no panacea, but may be required to bridge gaps - literally.

If you're referring to bridging the gaps caused by bridges, a battery with a range of 1 mile could be plenty large enough to get a train passed those bridges which are too constrained to provide OHLE.

Alternatively maybe the trick is to decarbonise everything that is practical and then accept that a few marginal edge cases simply cannot be economically decarbonised.

That may be the case. However that then means more of "other" carbon reduction (carbon capture and storage, tree planting, etc.). These tend to come at a cost, and currently there's an argument that we are using such things too much (or want to use them too much).

Arguably, of we had a scheme where we were building rail to allow the reduction of the road network and/or internal flights (so overall travel remains broadly the same but lower in carbon emissions) then actually small areas where carbon emissions were higher than they needed to could be broadly acceptable.
 

Energy

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Then factor in the extra energy EVs will require topped up by heat pumps and we will need to build out even more renewable generation.
EVs will make a difference though most are charged overnight. Heat pumps don't consume that much power, a 7kw Valliant Arotherm Plus is 15A maximum and a good installation would use half that.
 

4COR

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As much as hydrogen is touted, it's only a useful replacement for natural gas as it can go through the same pipes (largely: the propensity for H2 to get out of the smallest hole aside...).

Production of H2 requires either natural gas (so why not just use the gas?) or electrolysis (so why not use the electricity?).

The best approach is with wind/solar/thermal/hydro and nuclear - the latter is grossly maligned - yes, storage of waste is an issue. While Chernobyl (and Fukushima) were disasters (the former orders of magnitude greater than the latter), are these actually worse on a global scal than running fossil fuel plants instead?

Ultimately, the Laws of Thermodynamics rule over all - it's making the best of them to the least damage. (On which topic - heat pumps: yes - they are great, but utter rubbish in the wrong property. Unfortunately, most houses are old (even <50 yrs) and are unsuitable. Also, we'll need wholesale renewal of the electricity distribution network to support it all).
 

Facing Back

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As much as hydrogen is touted, it's only a useful replacement for natural gas as it can go through the same pipes (largely: the propensity for H2 to get out of the smallest hole aside...).

Production of H2 requires either natural gas (so why not just use the gas?) or electrolysis (so why not use the electricity?).

The best approach is with wind/solar/thermal/hydro and nuclear - the latter is grossly maligned - yes, storage of waste is an issue. While Chernobyl (and Fukushima) were disasters (the former orders of magnitude greater than the latter), are these actually worse on a global scal than running fossil fuel plants instead?

Ultimately, the Laws of Thermodynamics rule over all - it's making the best of them to the least damage. (On which topic - heat pumps: yes - they are great, but utter rubbish in the wrong property. Unfortunately, most houses are old (even <50 yrs) and are unsuitable. Also, we'll need wholesale renewal of the electricity distribution network to support it all).
Every option has its pros and cons. If it was obvious i1 guess we wouldn’t debate it. One interesting (to me, I’m a geek) mstatistic which came up in my physics degree was that the volume of highly radioactive (there is a scale) waste from all western nuclear combined since they started would fit into a decent sized tennis stadium.

I am assuming that we will go back to the policy of insulating houses more effectively, although that didn’t work well last time.

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As much as hydrogen is touted, it's only a useful replacement for natural gas as it can go through the same pipes (largely: the propensity for H2 to get out of the smallest hole aside...).

Production of H2 requires either natural gas (so why not just use the gas?) or electrolysis (so why not use the electricity?).

The best approach is with wind/solar/thermal/hydro and nuclear - the latter is grossly maligned - yes, storage of waste is an issue. While Chernobyl (and Fukushima) were disasters (the former orders of magnitude greater than the latter), are these actually worse on a global scal than running fossil fuel plants instead?

Ultimately, the Laws of Thermodynamics rule over all - it's making the best of them to the least damage. (On which topic - heat pumps: yes - they are great, but utter rubbish in the wrong property. Unfortunately, most houses are old (even <50 yrs) and are unsuitable. Also, we'll need wholesale renewal of the electricity distribution network to support it all).
We don’t want to use the electricity to heat our homes as there are 30 million homes in the uk heated by gas. We don’t like gas. Give us 5 years we will have a big enough electricity generating surplus to be able the waste it creating enough of the stuff we don’t mind a few atoms sneaking through the pipes.

it’s a very poor solution
 
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mike57

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As much as hydrogen is touted, it's only a useful replacement for natural gas as it can go through the same pipes
There are also the issues surrounding Hydrogen embrittlement, I think this would effectivley preclude using the existing infrastructure, as material selection to contain hydrogen is quite a tricky subject.

On a related topic I suspect there are some undiscovered issues surrounding Hydrogen storage and transport, which widespread use would uncover, and if you think a gas explosion is bad a hydogen one is far worse, and the flammable range is much wider at 4% - 74%, for comparision Methane (i.e. 'gas') is 5.5% - 15% in air.

I wouldn't say never use it, but taking the case of a rural railway line, with say one 3 car train every 2 hours or so I dont see the logic to switch to Hydrogen, the CO2 emissions saved are miniscule in the grand scheme of things, and there are far bigger contributers that should be eliminated at far less risk and cost.

In my industry we sometimes encounter unwanted Hydrogen occuring as a side effect, and its very difficult to deal with.
 

Poppysdad

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There are a few areas to consider in the overall scheme of things

The railways account for a very small % of the CO2 produced and the money need to be spent where we as a nation get the best return for the investment. The railways are currently facing a funding crisis due to the passenger revenues reducing dramatically and apparently flattening out at 80% of pre-covid levels.

The costs of electrification need to come down significantly and unfortunately the significant over spends on recent electrification programs have inevitably caused a rethink.

All budgets are being cut to pay for COVID, energy support etc

Irrespective of whether it is a Conservative or Labour Govt the money still has to come from somewhere and if you gave me a choice I would spend the money on health and social care rather than the railways
 

InTheEastMids

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Off-topic:
Unfortunately, most houses are old (even <50 yrs) and are unsuitable
This is widely believed to be the case, but is not borne out by the latest evidence. Link below is to a project report from Energy Systems Catapult.

Quote from the media release: "The suggestion that there are particular home archetypes in Britain that are “unsuitable” for heat pumps is not supported by project experience and data"

On topic:
The railways account for a very small % of the CO2 produced and the money need to be spent where we as a nation get the best return for the investment.
Yes, so investment ought to focus on where it gets the biggest return in terms of carbon reduction per £ (which is probably why so little electrification is happening!)
However if every industry does special pleading on behalf of being "a very small %" of the problem (which they all are), and that there are all sorts of edge cases that need to be exempted then Net Zero becomes ever more difficult.

On the efficiency of H2 vs BEV vs OHLE, the slide below - from Prof David Cebon at Cambridge Uni - shows the issue with the inefficiency of hydrogen (albeit for road, rather than rail). Obviously efficiency is not the only thing that matters, but if you're thinking of buying a train that's going to cost 3-3.5 times more to run than the electric version, then you do need to be avoiding a lot of other investment, and recognise that you're saddling yourself with that cost for the life of the asset. Given road haulage is probably going down a pure electric route, it will be unhelpful for rail freight operators to be trying to compete with hydrogen-powered traction.

[Image shows a flow chart, starting with 100 kWh of renewable electricity. The useful transport energy from this 100 kWh is 77 kWh for an electric road system vehicle, 69 kWh for a battery electric vehicle and 23 kWh for a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle]

Cebon slide.jpg
 

Nicholas Lewis

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How do we charge batteries or produce hydrogen without electricity?
My point is the more EVs penetrate the market and heat pumps take over the demand on the National grid will increase to twice todays max demand so we will need to build out even more renewables to keep up and it won't be able to.
 

D365

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My point is the more EVs penetrate the market and heat pumps take over the demand on the National grid will increase to twice todays max demand so we will need to build out even more renewables to keep up and it won't be able to.
Renewables, indeed not. Hence nuclear. But that’s another topic.

In either scenario - what’s the alternative to electricity?
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Renewables, indeed not. Hence nuclear. But that’s another topic.

In either scenario - what’s the alternative to electricity?
None only how its generated and that has to be a nuclear and a lot more of it but going to happen anytime soon if ever. It will be a bloomin miracle if Hinckley point C opens in 2027 and that will be two years late and given that its contemporary's in France and Finland are over a decade late the omens aren't good but hopefully at least we will have benefited from there learning.
 

Trainbike46

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I think that all governments are guilty of short-term thinking - its one of the features of a 5 year election cycle and not one of the good ones. I don't think it is purely a conservative problem so if you are hoping for a radically different horizon from the next labour government I worry you might be sadly disappointed.

As I understand it, the bi-mode 800s are specified at 110mph on diesel because that is the maximum linespeed of the bits of track they run on - I could have that wrong. Either way, if we wanted a bi-mode to run at 125mph on diesel I will bet you a shiny pound coin that Hitachi could provide it is short order, likewise 140mph. Getting from Bristol to Penzance on batteries can't be possible at the moment so that's diesel for the foreseeable future. It can't be economically viable to electrify the track through cornwall surely?
It probably would be viable actually. There's quite a lot of trains going down that line. there is a number of carriages per day that, when you pass that on average, electrification is cheaper, and the line to Penzance crosses most estimates of that number that I have seen

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Interesting that you should say that - do you have stats? The data I have is that a fuel cell is a more efficient mechanism to store and discharge electricity than a battery but I can't lay my hands on it to share. Not that there is enough real-life data to be confident in it anyway.

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Over the whole cycle, so including hydrogen production and storage losses, batteries easily beat hydrogen.
Really? Have you seen the plots of the rate of increase in green electicity in this country vs the rise is use? We're due to converge at some point in the next few years in both keep rising at their current rate
If decarbonisation continues at its required pace electricity use will start rising faster due to a switch to electricity for heating and transport, as well as industrial electrification. The demand increase when/if the steel factories switch to electric arc furnaces will be enormous

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Ultimately, the Laws of Thermodynamics rule over all - it's making the best of them to the least damage. (On which topic - heat pumps: yes - they are great, but utter rubbish in the wrong property. Unfortunately, most houses are old (even <50 yrs) and are unsuitable. Also, we'll need wholesale renewal of the electricity distribution network to support it all).
It is important that the heat pump fits the building yes, but the suggestion that heatpumps cannot work in old houses is wrong. It can and has been done in the past, and will only become easier in the future as more and better heatpumps become available
 
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GRALISTAIR

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Over the whole cycle, so including hydrogen production and storage losses, batteries easily beat hydrogen.
Absolutely no question whatsoever.

If decarbonisation continues at its required pace electricity use will start rising faster due to a switch to electricity for heating and transport, as well as industrial electrification. The demand increase when/if the steel factories switch to electric arc furnaces will be enormous.
The Grid will need upgrading that is for sure.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The Grid will need upgrading that is for sure.
The grid is already inadequate now as it was designed around the large coal and nuclear stations which as we know have largely disappeared and replaced by gas stations but wind power and interconnectors are connecting at the periphery of the system which was sized to receive power for local distribution not transmitting 100's of MW. Currently this leads to wind having to be constrained off the system when wind output is high. A few days ago best part of 50GWh was constrained off. There is a pretty good case for electrolysers to be co located at onshore windfarm substations so this energy isn't wasted.
 

The Ham

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It is important that the heat pump fits the building yes, but the suggestion that heatpumps cannot work in old houses is wrong. It can and has been done in the past, and will only become easier in the future as more and better heatpumps become available

As a rough rule of thumb you need to double the size of your radiators if using a heat pump over a gas boiler.

That's fine in a new build where they are about 300mm high, not so good in a 1980's home where there 700mm high. Although the new build may struggle with the smaller pipe diameters which are now used.

Obviously switching to underfloor heating works well, but then there's a big cost in doing so for the existing housing stock.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The grid is already inadequate now as it was designed around the large coal and nuclear stations which as we know have largely disappeared and replaced by gas stations but wind power and interconnectors are connecting at the periphery of the system which was sized to receive power for local distribution not transmitting 100's of MW. Currently this leads to wind having to be constrained off the system when wind output is high. A few days ago best part of 50GWh was constrained off. There is a pretty good case for electrolysers to be co located at onshore windfarm substations so this energy isn't wasted.

Agree, although up to a point. In that it'll still be better to them feed that power back to the grid as electricity rather than ship it to be used for other purposes.
 

Trainbike46

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As a rough rule of thumb you need to double the size of your radiators if using a heat pump over a gas boiler.

That's fine in a new build where they are about 300mm high, not so good in a 1980's home where there 700mm high. Although the new build may struggle with the smaller pipe diameters which are now used.

Obviously switching to underfloor heating works well, but then there's a big cost in doing so for the existing housing stock.
an alternative to replacing radiators is adding extra ones, or as you say underfloor heating.

Other alternatives, such as reducing heat demand (by insulating) or using a high temperature heat pump (no need to change radiators at all) are also available, though each option has drawbacks. At the end of the day a decision would have to be made taking into consideration a range of factors. But the point is, there is a range of options to suit different buildings
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Agree, although up to a point. In that it'll still be better to them feed that power back to the grid as electricity rather than ship it to be used for other purposes.
Totally but the nimby's don't want anymore pylons routes and even forcing them through the planning inspectorate can take upto five years then you have construction time. If decarbonisation is mission critical for the human race then this sort of nonsense needs challenging head on but it wont be.
 

Yew

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Absolutely no question whatsoever.
That depends how much of a premium you put one carrying all that weight for the batteries around. It's probably a fair comment in many situations, but certainly not all of them.
 

Energy

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an alternative to replacing radiators is adding extra ones, or as you say underfloor heating.

Other alternatives, such as reducing heat demand (by insulating) or using a high temperature heat pump (no need to change radiators at all) are also available, though each option has drawbacks. At the end of the day a decision would have to be made taking into consideration a range of factors. But the point is, there is a range of options to suit different buildings
There isn't a one size fits all with retrofits though insulating is always needed for leaky buildings.

Air to air heat pumps are also a good option if both small pipework and small radiators are an issue and the house is already well insulated.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Air to air heat pumps are also a good option if both small pipework and small radiators are an issue and the house is already well insulated.
Trouble the bulk of the housing stock wasn't built with adequate insulation and nor has teh ability to be upgraded sufficiently
 

GRALISTAIR

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That depends how much of a premium you put one carrying all that weight for the batteries around. It's probably a fair comment in many situations, but certainly not all of them.
Efficiency is well established.
Power density - that is different and believe it or not Hydrogen is better than battery.
Also, you have to carry the Hydrogen around too - so----
 

Yew

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Also, you have to carry the Hydrogen around too - so----
Yes, but you don't have to keep carrying it around once you've used it. A dead battery weighs basically the same as a full one.
 

Greybeard33

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Yes, but you don't have to keep carrying it around once you've used it. A dead battery weighs basically the same as a full one.
You do still have to keep carrying around the hydrogen pressure vessel, which is far heavier than the hydrogen it can hold.
 

Energy

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Yes, but you don't have to keep carrying it around once you've used it. A dead battery weighs basically the same as a full one.
Depends on the vehicle, on a car it makes a difference. On a train an extra 8 tonnes doesn't make that much of a difference compared to the rest of the train.
 

david1212

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If hydrogen could be produced using 100% green energy by small low cost plants it would be viable despite the low efficiency. Then for e.g. West Highland, North of Scotland, Aberdeen <> Inverness, Cumbrian Coast, west of Shrewsbury a train would need to carry enough plus a reserve for the end-to-end journey. On arrival it would be refilled from the hydrogen plant for the next journey.
 
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