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Hydrogen is not the panacea

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zwk500

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As I understand it, the bi-mode 800s are specified at 110mph on diesel because that is the maximum linespeed of the bits of track they run on - I could have that wrong. Either way, if we wanted a bi-mode to run at 125mph on diesel I will bet you a shiny pound coin that Hitachi could provide it is short order, likewise 140mph. Getting from Bristol to Penzance on batteries can't be possible at the moment so that's diesel for the foreseeable future. It can't be economically viable to electrify the track through cornwall surely?
I'm almost certain that all Class 80x trains are specified for 125mph speed in all modes (I'm fairly confident they're actually designed for 140mph capability). When in 'diesel' mode the propulsion is still provided by the electric traction motors, just the energy is being provided by diesel generators not the OLE and pantograph.
There will still be sections that aren't electrified, but it is interesting to have a look at other countries and see how much of their networks they've electrified and the comparative passenger/service volume they cover.
 
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One snag with hydrogen under pressure is that you need fairly substantial (i.e. heavy) pressure vessels in which to store it. That increases the weight of a train, bus, etc., compared with one using liquid fuels. Also, you have to be careful in the materials chosen to contain hydrogen - it can make some metals brittle, and diffuse slowly (escape) through others.
Very much so. The engineer I spoke to about this recently described it in technical terms as "a little bugger to store". The weight is offset to a major degree by the fact that the hydrogen is lighter than the fossil fuel it replaces but the pressure or cryo vessels are expensive too. New materials science mitigates these effects but it is all very non-trivial.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm almost certain that all Class 80x trains are specified for 125mph speed in all modes (I'm fairly confident they're actually designed for 140mph capability). When in 'diesel' mode the propulsion is still provided by the electric traction motors, just the energy is being provided by diesel generators not the OLE and pantograph.
There will still be sections that aren't electrified, but it is interesting to have a look at other countries and see how much of their networks they've electrified and the comparative passenger/service volume they cover.
I'm very happy to be corrected on the max speed. I know they are specced to 140mph generally and I'm sad we haven't got the ambition to put the signalling in place so they can run at that speed - I believe the same is true of the Pendalinos.

Yes I understand that the diesel is used to generate the electricity for the traction motors. The question "what does diesel electric mean" was one i asked my dad 40 years ago and sparked my interest in the railway.

I'll have to look up other countries unless somebody here knows - that is an interesting point. I know for sure that I've been on non-high speed trains which run on diesel but when I've been on an ICE or TGV its all been electric.
 
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zwk500

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I'm very happy to be corrected on the max speed. I know they are specced to 140mph generally and I'm sad we haven't got the ambition to put the signalling in place so they can run at that speed - I believe the same is true of the Pendalinos.
Pendos and Class 91s (Hence the IC225 branding) as well. Not sure about 180s.
Yes I understand that the diesel is used to generate the electricity for the traction motors. The question "what does diesel electric mean" was one i asked my dad 40 years ago and sparked my interest in the railway.
Yes, sorry wasn't trying to teach you how to suck eggs, was just mentioning that different speeds between modes would make little sense as it's the same thing actually moving the train. However acceleration does apparently differ between modes as the OLE can supply more current in a shorter amount of time.
I'll have to look up other countries unless somebody here knows - that is an interesting point. I know for sure that I've been on non-high speed trains which run on diesel but when I've been on an ICE or TGV its all been electric.
https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ is a good place to start. Pure EMUs are preferred as speed increases because they're the lightest and therefore cause less issues with suspension and hammer blow on the infrastructure. AFAIK all purpose-built HS lines in Europe are fully electrified and operated by pure EMUs.
 

jayah

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There's the small problem of actual density with hydrogen. Petrol is 8000 times more dense than hydrogen at normal temperature and pressure. At 700 bar pressure hydrogen is still 1/20 of the density of petrol. Compressing it for practical transportation uses energy and it still needs a whopping amount of space then.
I recall that was also the conclusion of a farmer who Countryfile interviewed about hydrogen farm machinery.

It was quite handy for light duty cycles, but heavy duties like ploughing, no chance it doesn't have the energy density.
 

Sorcerer

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I think that all governments are guilty of short-term thinking - its one of the features of a 5 year election cycle and not one of the good ones. I don't think it is purely a conservative problem so if you are hoping for a radically different horizon from the next labour government I worry you might be sadly disappointed.
I don't expect much from a Labour Government either, but this Conservative Government has without a doubt been bad with short-term thinking, and more than that the Conservative Party since Thatcher has been about individualism, and cars are very much a symbol of that. Therefore I am more inclined to expect conservatives to not be so enthusiastic about railway investments, but that's a whole other discussion.
As I understand it, the bi-mode 800s are specified at 110mph on diesel because that is the maximum linespeed of the bits of track they run on - I could have that wrong. Either way, if we wanted a bi-mode to run at 125mph on diesel I will bet you a shiny pound coin that Hitachi could provide it is short order, likewise 140mph. Getting from Bristol to Penzance on batteries can't be possible at the moment so that's diesel for the foreseeable future. It can't be economically viable to electrify the track through cornwall surely?
As far as I'm aware Class 800s and 802s can't go as fast as they can under diesel power as they can under electric. I think 100mph is about as fast as they can reach. I have no doubt that bi-mode units can be built to reach speeds of 125 and 140 but the question is whether we should. As a short-term strategy bi-mode units regardless of fuel source can be excellent stop gaps, but they should not be seen as alternatives to electrification.
 

zwk500

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As far as I'm aware Class 800s and 802s can't go as fast as they can under diesel power as they can under electric. I think 100mph is about as fast as they can reach. I have no doubt that bi-mode units can be built to reach speeds of 125 and 140 but the question is whether we should.
This thread:
Confirms that although performance on the diesel gensets is worse than on pure electric, there's nothing stopping them getting to 200kph other than PSRs and other trains.
As a short-term strategy bi-mode units regardless of fuel source can be excellent stop gaps, but they should not be seen as alternatives to electrification.
Agree. Bi-modes should be seen as a gap-filler enabling a more targeted electrification strategy. However there will always be a need for trains able to operate away from electrified tracks.
 

Class 317

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To make hydrogen from electrolysis you lose 30% of the electric. When converting it back to electricity in a fuel cell you lose 50% of the remaining energy. In other words you need 3 times the electric to produce the same useful energy. This increases the fuel cost by 3 times before you look at the cost of transport, storage, handling and more complicated trains to maintain which will add to the cost further.

As it stands presently virtually all hydrogen is produced at the point it's used by reforming natural gas with short storage and distribution pipework systems.

In terms of trains all routes with higher speeds and traffic densities, electrification will be cheaper will lower fuel costs and other operating costs. I can't see long distance hydrogen trains making sense.

For rural lines battery power makes more sense. Battery technology is improving rapidly both in energy density which reduces weight and/or improves range. Materials required in batteries are reducing driven by competition to reduce production costs. Technology from electric bus and coaches could maybe be transferred to light weight rural trains.
Batteries are also likely to be used in bimode electric units for runs of the wires a short distance eg Hastings to Ashford or Hull to Doncaster.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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To make hydrogen from electrolysis you lose 30% of the electric. When converting it back to electricity in a fuel cell you lose 50% of the remaining energy. In other words you need 3 times the electric to produce the same useful energy. This increases the fuel cost by 3 times before you look at the cost of transport, storage, handling and more complicated trains to maintain which will add to the cost further.

As it stands presently virtually all hydrogen is produced at the point it's used by reforming natural gas with short storage and distribution pipework systems.

In terms of trains all routes with higher speeds and traffic densities, electrification will be cheaper will lower fuel costs and other operating costs. I can't see long distance hydrogen trains making sense.

For rural lines battery power makes more sense. Battery technology is improving rapidly both in energy density which reduces weight and/or improves range. Materials required in batteries are reducing driven by competition to reduce production costs. Technology from electric bus and coaches could maybe be transferred to light weight rural trains.
Batteries are also likely to be used in bimode electric units for runs of the wires a short distance eg Hastings to Ashford or Hull to Doncaster.
Yup all true but if CO2 emissions from fossil fuels is killing the world then the argument against the economics of hydrogen is irrelevant and the human race has no choice. Personally a few lines with diesel trains isn't going to register in the long run either and there's far more urgent forms of transport that need decarbonising first so rather than waste the money of prototypes just divert the money and get more wires up.
 

Class 317

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Yup all true but if CO2 emissions from fossil fuels is killing the world then the argument against the economics of hydrogen is irrelevant and the human race has no choice. Personally a few lines with diesel trains isn't going to register in the long run either and there's far more urgent forms of transport that need decarbonising first so rather than waste the money of prototypes just divert the money and get more wires up.
The CO2 emissions argument is all the more reason to go electric whenever practical over hydrogen. 3 times more decarbonising effect for each renewable energy watt generated.

Green Hydrogen is going to be needed first for industrial processes where alternatives do not exist or are very difficult to implement.

Transport like heat is going electric.
 

eldomtom2

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It can't be economically viable to electrify the track through cornwall surely?
That depends on how you define "economically viable" - personally I feel that Penzance easily meets the service levels necessary to justify full electrification - it's hardly a little-used branch that escaped Beeching by the skin of its teeth.
 

The Ham

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The CO2 emissions argument is all the more reason to go electric whenever practical over hydrogen. 3 times more decarbonising effect for each renewable energy watt generated.

Green Hydrogen is going to be needed first for industrial processes where alternatives do not exist or are very difficult to implement.

Transport like heat is going electric.

Indeed, whilst we've still got gas generation of power, the more efficiently we can use that energy the better.

It's part of the reason that battery cars aren't ideal when compared to rail, as like for like cars are worse than rail, then add to that the inefficiencies which batteries add over OHLE direct power and EV's are always going to be in the back foot.

Even with about 62% of the network unable to use electric traction (including the lack of battery trains and most freight) the fact that rail is comparable per person per km to EV's in carbon emissions highlights this.
 

zwk500

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That depends on how you define "economically viable" - personally I feel that Penzance easily meets the service levels necessary to justify full electrification - it's hardly a little-used branch that escaped Beeching by the skin of its teeth.
Electrification to Exeter makes a lot of sense, and although the engineering challenges will be big I think a very good case for Plymouth can be made, although it might need to wait for more of the XC route to be electrified. However beyond that to Penzance really does struggle to put the numbers together. Services aren't that regular and the passenger numbers just aren't there.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Electrification to Exeter makes a lot of sense, and although the engineering challenges will be big I think a very good case for Plymouth can be made, although it might need to wait for more of the XC route to be electrified. However beyond that to Penzance really does struggle to put the numbers together. Services aren't that regular and the passenger numbers just aren't there.
Labour are more committed to the green agenda than Tories so assuming they don't lose next time we may well see them head in a different direction but don't bank on it as NR still can't make electrification cost effective compounded by inflation in construction materials running well ahead of the 10% headline inflation rate.
 

matacaster

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Electrification is very efficient as long as
-mr Putin doesn't start a war (in which case a few well targeted missiles hitting major junctions, national grid feeder transformers and signalling control centres would cripple the network for ages)
-there are electrified diversionary routes for all significant lines
-either all lines are electrified or there is some other means of propulsion not dependent on wires for lesser used lines.

Hydrogen could play a part, particularly if it was obtained by electrolysis using wind power.
 

zwk500

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Labour are more committed to the green agenda than Tories so assuming they don't lose next time we may well see them head in a different direction but don't bank on it as NR still can't make electrification cost effective compounded by inflation in construction materials running well ahead of the 10% headline inflation rate.
Labour SAY they are more committed, but I'm yet to be convinced anything said by the opposition of the time (all parties) means 10% of it will lead to action.
Electrification is very efficient as long as
-mr Putin doesn't start a war (in which case a few well targeted missiles hitting major junctions, national grid feeder transformers and signalling control centres would cripple the network for ages)
Tbf the UK is extremely unlikely to come under direct attack for the annexation of irredentist Russian claims.
-there are electrified diversionary routes for all significant lines
This does not necessarily have to be so, the ECML has coped without significant diversions north of Stevenage for many years.
-either all lines are electrified or there is some other means of propulsion not dependent on wires for lesser used lines.
Yes.
Hydrogen could play a part, particularly if it was obtained by electrolysis using wind power.
Indeed. I think though that Hydrogen has been very effectively promoted by vested interests but now that people are beginning to look seriously at it the Emperor's clothes are falling off a little. However that's not to say it couldn't be made to work, and at some point we will need to stop using oil-based fuels.
 

GRALISTAIR

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If there was a panacea, there wouldn't be any debate.

Batteries, Electrification and Bi-modes (diesel or hydrogen) are all part of the solutions. Whether you like them or not.
Very true. I don’t disagree.

Electrification is very efficient as long as
-mr Putin doesn't start a war (in which case a few well targeted missiles hitting major junctions, national grid feeder transformers and signalling control centres would cripple the network for ages)
-there are electrified diversionary routes for all significant lines
-either all lines are electrified or there is some other means of propulsion not dependent on wires for lesser used lines.

Hydrogen could play a part, particularly if it was obtained by electrolysis using wind power.
Surely Mr Putin could target the hydrogen production plants too.
 

HSTEd

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Electrification is very efficient as long as
-mr Putin doesn't start a war (in which case a few well targeted missiles hitting major junctions, national grid feeder transformers and signalling control centres would cripple the network for ages)
Under a concerted attack by a competent opponent (unlike the Russian targeting complex in the current conflict) then a diesel operated railway would collapse in short order regardless.

Precision weapons are simply too potent.
 
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Facing Back

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Under a concerted attack by a competent component (unlike the Russian targeting complex in the current conflict) then a diesel operated railway would collapse in short order regardless.

Precision weapons are simply too potent.
haha a response to that will take us well off topic so I am not going to even start
 

The Ham

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Electrification is very efficient as long as
-mr Putin doesn't start a war (in which case a few well targeted missiles hitting major junctions, national grid feeder transformers and signalling control centres would cripple the network for ages)

Whatever the energy mix, if the signalling control centres get hit the network is going to be out for a significant amount of time. Also this sounds very much like a desperate attempt to justify something which has few advantage.

-there are electrified diversionary routes for all significant lines

If we're arguing that significant lines need diversionary routes of they are wired up, why not if they are diesel (for example Exeter to Plymouth via Tavistock, a second route to Brighton, Alton to Winchester, and many of the other schemes which people could cite)?

Most of the network is too busy to run extra services (for example the GWML hasn't seen extra services because of the landslip at Hook closing a 4 track railway - which by anyone's measure must be a significant line), so most diverted people would have to use the services which used that route already (there are some exceptions like GWR services using the WofE line, but they tend to replace SWR services).

Again, it sounds like a bit of a desperate arguement, as there'd never be enough hydrogen trains to run along diversion routes at the same frequency as they would on their own lines (given by their nature the diversion routes would be longer).

-either all lines are electrified or there is some other means of propulsion not dependent on wires for lesser used lines.

Agreed, however electrification of all lines is going to take time, and beyond the short term it's likely that batteries are likely to give you a more uniform fleet in bridging the gaps in the wires which are short, anything longer (and whilst not ideal) it's likely to be more efficient to use the old diesel trains were have rather than custom build something which could see limited use in (say) 20 years time.

If we had a rolling program of electrification at 30 STM a year per region, then England would be completely weird up in about 35 years. However even at that rate in 20 years time (and bearing in mind there are bimodals trains, like the 38 class 755) there's a good chance that most of the gaps in the wires too long for battery trains could be dealt with by bimodal trains.

To aid in that, arguably the line between Newbury and Taunton could be one of the latter lines to get wires (except for the freight which uses it) to keep using the class 800's.

Hydrogen could play a part, particularly if it was obtained by electrolysis using wind power.

Not a significant part in rail travel, and there's a lot of grey hydrogen which needs to be converted to green before we start using hydrogen for too many other new uses.

That's before we consider how costly it is to move it about.

For example it's more efficient to create hydrogen as an energy store to then use it to create electricity to charge a battery car than it is to use it directly in a car - and charging batteries are less efficient than direct power like OHLE.

Currently our grid isn't in a place where we can afford to be wasting large amounts of electricity on something which isn't that efficient.

There's other energy storage options which could be created fairly cheaply, for example gravity batteries (take a disused mine, put a heavy weight at the bottom linked to a pit wheel and then just it up at times of over supply and then use regenerative braking to get electricity back out as it lowers back down at times of under supply), whilst they require a fair amount of upfront costs, they down degrade (like batteries) or require complex storage systems (like hydrogen).
 

fandroid

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We cannot afford to not electrify. The overriding purpose is to reduce carbon emissions, so any traditional notion of cost efficiency is secondary to carbon reduction efficiency.

The problem with both battery and hydrogen is that they are both inefficient users of generated electricity compared with OLE. While we are still using fossil fuel power stations to generate any of our power, then we shouldn't be wasting any of that. Green electricity is still a scarce resource and the railway isn't the only sector that needs to electrify, so we need to increase the green energy generated to cover those sectors as well.

An electrified railway offers big opportunities for modal transfer of freight, as it's the only realistic alternative to diesel for freight haulage.

There's probably a niche role for batteries for last mile work and for the short term, as extending OLE won't happen overnight. But neither they nor hydrogen can be afforded as a primary solution until we have big surpluses of green energy and all the other sectors have caught up.
 

Facing Back

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We cannot afford to not electrify. The overriding purpose is to reduce carbon emissions, so any traditional notion of cost efficiency is secondary to carbon reduction efficiency.

She problem with both battery and hydrogen is that they are both inefficient users of generated electricity compared with OLE. While we are still using fossil fuel power stations to generate any of our power, then we shouldn't be wasting any of that. Green electricity is still a scarce resource and the railway isn't the only sector that needs to electrify, so we need to increase the green energy generated to cover those sectors as well.

An electrified railway offers big opportunities for modal transfer of freight, as it's the only realistic alternative to diesel for freight haulage.

There's probably a niche role for batteries for last mile work and for the short term, as extending OLE won't happen overnight. But neither they nor hydrogen can be afforded as a primary solution until we have big surpluses of green energy and all the other sectors have caught up.
Who’s overriding purpose? It’s not the government’s.

*edit - changed overwhelming to overriding
 
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Bill57p9

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There's probably a niche role for batteries for last mile work and for the short term, as extending OLE won't happen overnight. But neither they nor hydrogen can be afforded as a primary solution until we have big surpluses of green energy and all the other sectors have caught up.
Whilst I am reluctant to suggest any argument against electrification, I really cannot think of circumstances that would justify the electrification of the likes of the West Highland of Far North Lines.
Given the weather the WHL can experience, I can't see electrification being reliable even if it were fitted.
Taking the example of Dawlish: given how often the sea wall at Saltcoats is closed to electric traction, how resilient would an electrified Dawlish be?

So I believe there will always be a requirement for some portable energy and batteries have their limits: I go back to WHL: how far does battery technology need to evolve until it would be credible to hop between power sources, accepting that much of the line is some distance from the sort of electricity supply that would be required for flash charging?
Hydrogen is no panacea, but may be required to bridge gaps - literally.
Alternatively maybe the trick is to decarbonise everything that is practical and then accept that a few marginal edge cases simply cannot be economically decarbonised.
 

zwk500

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Whilst I am reluctant to suggest any argument against electrification, I really cannot think of circumstances that would justify the electrification of the likes of the West Highland of Far North Lines.
Given the weather the WHL can experience, I can't see electrification being reliable even if it were fitted.
Taking the example of Dawlish: given how often the sea wall at Saltcoats is closed to electric traction, how resilient would an electrified Dawlish be?
How often is Saltcoats blocked to electric traction due to OHLE damage? Given the rather large new sea wall at Dawlish, you'd hope it's only spray and winds, which can be braced against (with effort)
So I believe there will always be a requirement for some portable energy and batteries have their limits: I go back to WHL: how far does battery technology need to evolve until it would be credible to hop between power sources, accepting that much of the line is some distance from the sort of electricity supply that would be required for flash charging?
Battery technology is currently claiming in-service capacity of c.80km so quite a lot further to go for the WHL. But the WHL is very much an outlier on the UK network and even if it stayed diesel it would not be noticed in the carbon emissions discussion.
Hydrogen is no panacea, but may be required to bridge gaps - literally.
Alternatively maybe the trick is to decarbonise everything that is practical and then accept that a few marginal edge cases simply cannot be economically decarbonised.
This is a good point
 

Nicholas Lewis

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We cannot afford to not electrify. The overriding purpose is to reduce carbon emissions, so any traditional notion of cost efficiency is secondary to carbon reduction efficiency.
the problem is the world needs to do it not just a few countries so little point in us going for total zero when other countries are still producing carbon. The better balance would be accept localised diesel lines and uses the money to help other countries remove the highest producing CO2 plant.
The problem with both battery and hydrogen is that they are both inefficient users of generated electricity compared with OLE. While we are still using fossil fuel power stations to generate any of our power, then we shouldn't be wasting any of that. Green electricity is still a scarce resource and the railway isn't the only sector that needs to electrify, so we need to increase the green energy generated to cover those sectors as well.
battery round trip efficiency is far superior to hydrogen not forgetting all the energy that is required to produce the infrastructure for ole
An electrified railway offers big opportunities for modal transfer of freight, as it's the only realistic alternative to diesel for freight haulage.
er have that now but very few electrically hauled freights although GBRf are moving in the right direction.
There's probably a niche role for batteries for last mile work and for the short term, as extending OLE won't happen overnight. But neither they nor hydrogen can be afforded as a primary solution until we have big surpluses of green energy and all the other sectors have caught up.
we will never have a surplus of green energy if we are electrifying everything
 

Facing Back

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battery round trip efficiency is far superior to hydrogen not forgetting all the energy that is required to produce the infrastructure for ole
Interesting that you should say that - do you have stats? The data I have is that a fuel cell is a more efficient mechanism to store and discharge electricity than a battery but I can't lay my hands on it to share. Not that there is enough real-life data to be confident in it anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

we will never have a surplus of green energy if we are electrifying everything
Really? Have you seen the plots of the rate of increase in green electicity in this country vs the rise is use? We're due to converge at some point in the next few years in both keep rising at their current rate
 

Class 170101

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How often is Saltcoats blocked to electric traction due to OHLE damage? Given the rather large new sea wall at Dawlish, you'd hope it's only spray and winds, which can be braced against (with effort)

Its not OLE damage but trippings and reset thats more problematic I'd say.
 
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