HST's future careers

[43021HST]

Regarding the HST's replacing some SWT Class 159s, I think this is highly unlikely, as the stop start nature of the route, requires something with rapid acceleration and the sprinters will do the job a damn sight quicker than the HST's.

There was a proposal in the mid eighties to replace the loco hauled trains on the Basingstoke, Exeter route with shorter, slightly less powerful HST's, but that came to nothing. I think the Class 180s would be most suited for that sort of work. Really I think the future of the HST once replaced by the IEP will be scrap.
That doesn't mean they wont be around for much longer, they will still be a regular on the West of England services for quite some time yet.

The HST is designed to do one thing and thing only, express trains, they are unsuited for any other sort of passenger work.

Its a bit like using a drill when only a screwdriver is required.

 

[Class172]

I would have thought an ideal location as some have already said is the Chiltern Main Line, though I'm not too sure Chiltern would be too happy with that, unless their power-door Mk3s can be incorporated into the HST sets.

Other than that I agree with tbtc's suggestion of splitting the XC routes into a voyager operated route and HST route.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Never say never. On Chiltern we have seen the rebirth of loco-hauled as a need for a fast service with an image more premium than even the newish DMUs brought in an excellent refurbished modernised mk3.

Not every operator is getting sparked or having IEP imposed on them,, and the success of the Chiltern Silver Train plus leasecos looking for takers will surely see HSTs rolled out elsewhere.

As has already been suggested the long haul Scotrail services seem ideal, similarly what about ATWs longer services.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Goatboy]

As excellent as 159's are and as great as it would be to see them on the rest of the network, I suspect they will remain on the Waterloo to Exeter route as they are perfectly suited to this route. IMHO they are the best DMU in the country.

 

[tbtc]

I would have thought an ideal location as some have already said is the Chiltern Main Line, though I'm not too sure Chiltern would be too happy with that, unless their power-door Mk3s can be incorporated into the HST sets

The fast Chiltern services to Birmingham are a possibility, yes - with Chiltern needing 168s for the new Oxford services.

Never say never. On Chiltern we have seen the rebirth of loco-hauled as a need for a fast service with an image more premium than even the newish DMUs brought in an excellent refurbished modernised mk3

Just my personal opinion but I think that Chiltern went for the Mk3s because they were fairly easily available (for the price of a little upgrade) rather than buying new diesel stock.

Nothing to do with "premium stock", just lack of alternatives.

The HST is designed to do one thing and thing only, express trains, they are unsuited for any other sort of passenger work.

Its a bit like using a drill when only a screwdriver is required.

Good summary - I like that

 

[yorksrob]

Just my personal opinion but I think that Chiltern went for the Mk3s because they were fairly easily available (for the price of a little upgrade) rather than buying new diesel stock.

Nothing to do with "premium stock", just lack of alternatives.

Although, to be fair, it is premium stock, whatever Chiltern might think !

 

[cjmillsnun]

Would it not be easier to just rewire the power cars rather than the coaches?

No... Keep the power cars standard so that if necessary they could be subbed with other PCs on the cornwall route.

 

[RobShipway]

Never say never. On Chiltern we have seen the rebirth of loco-hauled as a need for a fast service with an image more premium than even the newish DMUs brought in an excellent refurbished modernised mk3.

Not every operator is getting sparked or having IEP imposed on them,, and the success of the Chiltern Silver Train plus leasecos looking for takers will surely see HSTs rolled out elsewhere.

As has already been suggested the long haul Scotrail services seem ideal, similarly what about ATWs longer services.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

If you are meaning services like the Cardiff - Portsmouth Service, then you have the same problem with HST's doing this service as doing the short stop services on the Waterloo - Salisbury/Exeter routes.

The only Arriva Service I can see being done by the HST's is the Cardiff - Holyhead service, but I believe even that has too many stops for the HST's to get a good run of their engines.

The HST's as a few people have pointed out need routes that it can have a good run on doing 100mph plus, which I don't think can be done on any of the Arriva routes accept along the North Wales coast line or down to Fishguard.

You may get away with running a 5t coach with two power cars doing the services between Manchester and Holyhead possibly?

As for the routes in Scotland, I believe them to be too short to be running HST's and you would have to be running them at less than 100mph which would be no good for them because as someone has stated they are designed as Express trains, with limited stops on the routes they are serving.

 

[BestWestern]

Regarding the HST being unsuitable for 'stop start' work, let's not forget that a good chunk of FGW's services do exactly that, and whilst it is never 'good' for a big diesel engine, it does appear to work without too many issues. The MTU engines are presumably more flexible than the Valenta units, doubltess have far more complex management systems and can likely cope far better with varying workloads.

 

[43021HST]

Another thought has just occurred, when the Thames Valley is electrified, Chiltern will most likely get some more 165s and 166s to boost their capacity, I don't think they would require any 35 year old HST's.

 

[BestWestern]

Another thought has just occurred, when the Thames Valley is electrified, Chiltern will most likely get some more 165s and 166s to boost their capacity, I don't think they would require any 35 year old HST's.

Are the Turbo fleet not going en masse to FGW's West operation? Or is there a surplus, I've no idea of the numbers TBH!?

Presumably the last HST to grace the metals will be the NR 'Flying Banana', which by their fleet standards is pretty cutting edge! Would they have any use for another one I wonder?

 

[TOCDriver]

Regarding the HST being unsuitable for 'stop start' work, let's not forget that a good chunk of FGW's services do exactly that, and whilst it is never 'good' for a big diesel engine, it does appear to work without too many issues. The MTU engines are presumably more flexible than the Valenta units, doubltess have far more complex management systems and can likely cope far better with varying workloads.

As long as the bearings and con rods are kept lubricated with good quality, hot oil, any diesel engine can carry out stop-start work indefinitely. Just look at the Leyland engines in the 10X's - as good as new when retired in 2003 - only the bodywork of the saloons was beginning to suffer!

 

[455driver]

What about a re-geared power car (with a top speed of 100mph) and a DVT at the other end.

A lot of the problems with the HSTs are because of the very long gearing necessary for the 125mph top speed, shorten the gearing and the tractive effort increases proportionally meaning that a 2+8 100mph HST would accelerate much quicker than they do now.

 

[MCW]

wild thought here... now for enough times, i have banged on about the bloody birmingham to stansted services needing more rolling stock etc. now considering this route can adequately fill, if not completely overfill a class 170 in 3 car formation, then perhaps a 5 car HST would do the trick, as this would allow more passenger capcity and thus also give slightly lighter work for the hst's. the rancid 170's could then be redeployed as necessay or applicable to replace older stock elsewhere, E.G. Pacers and other second gen DMU's

 

[jopsuk]

Whilst SDO can overcome the numerous short platforms on that route, Stansted would need considerable work done in order to accommodate a 2+5 car diesel train every hour.

Furthermore, much of he route will have SP differentials but not HST- so (even fitted with power doors to aid dispatch) an HST, even a short formation, would be slower accelerating with a lower top speed.

In fact, this is important with a lot of these secondary routes people are proposing.

None of this gets round the carriages nearing the end of their structural fatigue life.

 

[The Ham]

Regarding the HST's replacing some SWT Class 159s, I think this is highly unlikely, as the stop start nature of the route, requires something with rapid acceleration and the sprinters will do the job a damn sight quicker than the HST's.

There was a proposal in the mid eighties to replace the loco hauled trains on the Basingstoke, Exeter route with shorter, slightly less powerful HST's, but that came to nothing. I think the Class 180s would be most suited for that sort of work. Really I think the future of the HST once replaced by the IEP will be scrap.
That doesn't mean they wont be around for much longer, they will still be a regular on the West of England services for quite some time yet.

The HST is designed to do one thing and thing only, express trains, they are unsuited for any other sort of passenger work.

Its a bit like using a drill when only a screwdriver is required.

It is one of the reasons why I suggested that IF (and I'm not sure it is that much of a good idea) HST's were to replace the 159's they would be running Waterloo-Salisbury (rather than to Exeter) as the most they would stop at is, Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Overton, Whitchurch, Andover, Grateley and Salisbury. Which gives it a good couple of long(ish) runs.

 

[yorksrob]

It is one of the reasons why I suggested that IF (and I'm not sure it is that much of a good idea) HST's were to replace the 159's they would be running Waterloo-Salisbury (rather than to Exeter) as the most they would stop at is, Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Overton, Whitchurch, Andover, Grateley and Salisbury. Which gives it a good couple of long(ish) runs.

I wasn't aware that the Exeter services had many more stops between London and Salisbury. Alternatively , swap it so that Salisbury services have more stops (which would surely be the more usual arrangement to have the longer distance service stopping less.

 

[RobShipway]

Since all the Class 43 have been re - engineered, I believe the replacement engines have taken up less space than the previous engine occuppied?

Now I believe this has been asked before, but if the above is correct is there enough space for OHLE equipment to be installed?

Also, are the Class 43's compatible with the Mk4 coaches?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

<snip>

Also, are the Class 43's compatible with the Mk4 coaches?

NO

hence the need for the 'surrogate DVT' powercar for the train supply on the cl 91 hauled HST - 1 sets

 

[Goatboy]

I am currently on an XC HST.

It is smooth and very quiet and seems to glide along. It is comfortable, spacious and the cabin feels light and airy.

Why can we not build modern trains which can match of exceed this? This train feels perfectly suited to the route on which it is operating, I do not feel the same about the Voyager. Nothing to do with nostalgia, I would be happy to see these trains replaced for good with something equal or better in all areas.

I am usually on a service an hour later which is a cramped, noisy 4 car Voyager. Today's journey is immeasurably better.

 

[Manchester77]

NO

hence the need for the 'surrogate DVT' powercar for the train supply on the cl 91 hauled HST - 1 sets

Actually the reason for their use was because the 91s were ready before the mark IVs and so BR ran 91+mark IIIs+HST acting as a DVT however they were very unreliable iirc.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Actually the reason for their use was because the 91s were ready before the mark IVs and so BR ran 91+mark IIIs+HST acting as a DVT however they were very unreliable iirc.

They were, so they were used as power cars with the 91's and this lead to some of the fastest accelerating trains used on the ECML.

 

[43021HST]

None of this gets round the carriages nearing the end of their structural fatigue life.

Agreed, the rust around some of the windows on the MK3s looks a bit iffy and I've heard the underframes aren't brilliant.

The HST fleet in the next few years I don't think is going to see many more drastic changes now until scrapping, expenditure on a structural improvement project just wouldn't be justified.

I know as an enthusiast I would like too see them run for as long as they possibly can, but physically that is impossible, nothing lasts forever.
Hate to say it but the HST's are now near the buffer stops of their life.

 

[MCW]

Whilst SDO can overcome the numerous short platforms on that route, Stansted would need considerable work done in order to accommodate a 2+5 car diesel train every hour.

Furthermore, much of he route will have SP differentials but not HST- so (even fitted with power doors to aid dispatch) an HST, even a short formation, would be slower accelerating with a lower top speed.

In fact, this is important with a lot of these secondary routes people are proposing.

None of this gets round the carriages nearing the end of their structural fatigue life.

very true and point well made.

the only other way around it would be plug doors and re gearing the HSt's to have faster acceleration and a top speed of 100 or 90 MPH. but then that is defeating my idea as more money would need to be spent for this to happen.

 

[Charlie2555]

It is one of the reasons why I suggested that IF (and I'm not sure it is that much of a good idea) HST's were to replace the 159's they would be running Waterloo-Salisbury (rather than to Exeter) as the most they would stop at is, Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Overton, Whitchurch, Andover, Grateley and Salisbury. Which gives it a good couple of long(ish) runs.

Well, half the trains don't stop at Overton, Whitchurch and Grateley. On the other hand, the train can stop at Wimbledon, like it is currently

I really like 159s, and they're very good condition and well cared for- so why replace them? 159s are fast enough, and I have once recorded one at 95mph!

I agree that it would be pointless to operate HSTs beyond Salisbury. There are quite a fair few stops, and not forgetting the single track layout for lengths of it. Also, the sleeper conditions are very poor- especially at my local station Gillingham where the wooden sleepers are very splintered and rotting.
I imagine several stations are considerably too short for HSTs too.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I believe another poster suggested a few pages ago 220s for Scotrail express?
With there current layout they dont hold all that many more than a 170 and these are not coping with the loadings as it is as well as the HML being a bit much for the gutless things.
The HSTs may be old but with 5 standard coaches and with a few of the rebuilt micro buffet coaches from FGW retro fitted with FC Seating these would be a huge improvement!

 

[broadgage]

I am currently on an XC HST.

It is smooth and very quiet and seems to glide along. It is comfortable, spacious and the cabin feels light and airy.

Why can we not build modern trains which can match of exceed this? This train feels perfectly suited to the route on which it is operating, I do not feel the same about the Voyager. Nothing to do with nostalgia, I would be happy to see these trains replaced for good with something equal or better in all areas.

I am usually on a service an hour later which is a cramped, noisy 4 car Voyager. Today's journey is immeasurably better.

Agree entirely, but as I have previously posted, there seems to be a view in the rail industry that HSTs are too good for todays railway and that the future is short DMUs with minimal facilities.

 

[TheWalrus]

Would HSTs be more suitable for Waterloo-Exeter if they were reconfigured to 2+9 with 8 standard and 1 first? That that would give about 640 standard seats and maybe ok for peak time Waterloo-Salisbury displacing more 158/159s to strengthen Exeters?

 

[Mainline421]

I predict HSTs will be very popular with charter work. They are rail tour length, can be turned round more easily than (other) locomotive hauled trains and are popular with enthusiasts. Also they have already been used on charters.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Actually the reason for their use was because the 91s were ready before the mark IVs and so BR ran 91+mark IIIs+HST acting as a DVT however they were very unreliable iirc.

Cl91 cannot supply electric power to HST spec mk 3s which is why the engine in the Surrogate DVT power car had to be run , conversly therefore, cl43 cannot provider power to Mk4s ( or loco hauled spec mk 3) due to different ETS specification ...

as HST stock needs 415 v 3 phase AC rather than standard ETH