HST's future careers

[yorksrob]

Plus, the fairly regular stop-start nature of the Waterloo-Exeter route is not at all suitable for HSTs, which have slow acceleration and a historical propensity to overheat on regular stop services. It is this feature of the West of England route that killed the 50s, after all.

I quite like the idea of them going on to Waterloo - Exeter, given that the capacity is about right, and the incumbent trains could be easily cascaded elsewhere.

With regard to the stop-start issue, is this still the case even with the new engines ? Plus West of Plymouth is also fairly stop-start in nature anyway.

Other thoughts - perhaps more could go on commuter services to areas unlikely to be electrified for a while - i.e. the Cotswold line or Chiltern.

More to bolster XC would be nice as well.
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The EPBs have terrible performance compared to the Networkers, which means the timetable would have to account for EPB performance preventing any travel time benefits purchased at great expense from being implemented.

Well, they were obviously being fairly run down by the early 90's, but if they had developed a strategy to use some of the better, newer examples for peak time capacity longer term, there would have been more justification to spend more money on them. Plus they wouldn't have been stretched so much, so perhaps reliability could have been brought nearer to the longer distance slammers.

 

[Kettledrum]

I believe that the current wet-lease contract for the Voyagers expires in 2016, before the Great Western HSTs will be due to be released. However, I agree with you that it is still highly unlikely that Crosscountry would take on any additional HSTs.

X country have the routes that would benefit from them, and currently have some very overcrowded trains. Some things would have to change:

- lease companies need to slash their prices - after all the trains will be so old and anything they get for them would be better than nothing.

- franchise specification - the future XC franchise needs to be much more tightly defined, so the current over crowded trains are simply not tolerated. Mandating the HSTs into the contract would be a possible move.

- access charges need to be revisited. They currently work as a disincentive for XC to run longer and more comfortable trains.

All the above would in my opinion be in the passengers interests.

 

[Train wasp]

Does anyone know what the structural condition of the power cars are in?

Cheers

They'll be 40 years old, near as. They're life - expired.
Maybe a few to charter operators, but otherwise, scrap. No machine lasts forever.

If the power cars are in good structural condition why scrap them for. Why can't they be paired with new coaches? This would give them another lease of life and could be a cheaper than building new rolling stock.

 

[bnm]

They'll be 40 years old, near as. They're life - expired.
Maybe a few to charter operators, but otherwise, scrap. No machine lasts forever.

Although the engines in the locos are fairly new (cerca 2005)

Very much 'Trigger's Broom'.

 

[starrymarkb]

Waterloo to Exeter is a Regional Express and the 159s are pretty much perfect for the work required, why replace them with an older and inferior (for the task) option...

BTW HSTs were considered when NSE were looking to replace the 50s and were ruled not suitable at an early stage!

 

[yorksrob]

Waterloo to Exeter is a Regional Express and the 159s are pretty much perfect for the work required, why replace them with an older and inferior (for the task) option...

BTW HSTs were considered when NSE were looking to replace the 50s and were ruled not suitable at an early stage!

Because the 159's are perfect for half the unelectrified routes in the country !

 

[tbtc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Overground

Tfl has also looked into the option of converting retired Mk3 coaches from HST sets into Electric Multiple Units for use on the Gospel Oak to Barking line to replace the class 172 fleet.[citation needed]

Citation definitely needed!
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I quite like the idea of them going on to Waterloo - Exeter, given that the capacity is about right

You'd lose a chunk of platform space to accommodate the power cars, and you'd presumably have to run nine coach HSTs all the way to Exeter (unlike the current arrangement of splitting services at Salisbury to match demand better).

159s will be perfect for that route for the medium term - if anything replaces them it ought to be EMUs (though not until the 202s).

 

[3141]

I remember the replacement of slam door units on South East London services with the wretched networkers. A huge publicity campagain told us how wonderfull the new trains would be. They were shorter and less reliable.
8 car slam door units on the Catford loop line were displaced in theory by 6 car networkers, but often in practice by 4 car units.
And of course the old trains had to be scrapped urgently because they became dangerous on the day that some of the networkers were delivered.

It's not just short trains but also short memories. It was considered necessary to replace slam door stock for safety reasons. They didn't just get declared dangerous once their replacements had arrived.

It's true that some slam door trains such as the 4 VEPs had far more doors - one for every 10 seats - whereas sliding or plug door stock has two double doors for up to 100 seats. Boarding and alighting is therefore slower. But sliding doors with vestibules provide room for more standing passengers than the centre gangway of a 4 VEP. We can debate whether it's right to have fewer seats and a lot more standing passengers, but I reckon that with the overall increase in passenger numbers, there are many routes on which, with slam door trains, there would now be many rush hour passengers simply unable to get on.

 

[yorksrob]

You'd lose a chunk of platform space to accommodate the power cars, and you'd presumably have to run nine coach HSTs all the way to Exeter (unlike the current arrangement of splitting services at Salisbury to match demand better).

159s will be perfect for that route for the medium term - if anything replaces them it ought to be EMUs (though not until the 202s).

Well, those points are certainly true. On balance though, wouldn't those drawbacks be far outweighed by having an entire fleet of extremely versatile 159's freed up to tide us over the capacity issues around the rest of the unelectrified network ?
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I reckon that with the overall increase in passenger numbers, there are many routes on which, with slam door trains, there would now be many rush hour passengers simply unable to get on.

You could get a hell of a lot of standing passengers on a high density slammer.

 

[starrymarkb]

Because the 159's are perfect for half the unelectrified routes in the country !

Maybe I should add that NSE thought Electrification (750V DC) would have been a better option than HSTs back in the late 80s...

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe I should add that NSE thought Electrification (750V DC) would have been a better option than HSTs back in the late 80s...

Perhaps NSE felt happier with a form of traction more widely used on the rest of their network, rather than traction exclusively used by InterCity.

I agree, the stop-start nature of the route west of Salisbury isn't ideal for HST operation by a long chalk. But then again, is west of Plymouth ?

 

[starrymarkb]

Cornwall is a bit better - there are 7/8 regular HST stops per trip, as opposed to 22 stops per trip for a 159 on the Waterloo route...

 

[yorksrob]

Cornwall is a bit better - there are 7/8 regular HST stops per trip, as opposed to 22 stops per trip for a 159 on the Waterloo route...

A quick reccy of NRE and I make it twelve stops between Exeter and Penzance and thirteen between Basingstoke and Exeter.

 

[Starmill]

I will say that if a HST is scrapped before a pacer then I despair...

 

[tbtc]

Well, those points are certainly true. On balance though, wouldn't those drawbacks be far outweighed by having an entire fleet of extremely versatile 159's freed up to tide us over the capacity issues around the rest of the unelectrified network ?

159s would be great on a number of routes elsewhere in the country, don't get me wrong, but SWT would still need a fleet of SuperSprinters for its other DMU lines and I think that it'd take a lot of HST carriages to replace each 159.
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I will say that if a HST is scrapped before a pacer then I despair...

The difference is that we'll still need a lot of 75mph DMUs to run dozens and dozens of "local" routes for many years to come...

...we don't need huge numbers of 125mph diesel trains* after CP5 electrification wires up much of the GWML and MML plus we'll have IEP capable of running diesel services and a decent number of modern 125mph DMUs (180/ 220/ 221/ 222).

HSTs may be a nice luxury, but Pacers are still going to be a necessity - regardless of whether enthusiasts prefer HSTs.

(* - sidestepping the argument about whether HSTs are MU or loco-hauled!)

 

[yorksrob]

SWT would still need a fleet of SuperSprinters for its other DMU lines and I think that it'd take a lot of HST carriages to replace each 159.

This is certainly true. But there will come a time when we'll have a lot of HST's (many with non life expired engines and interiors) available.

 

[HSTEd]

Out of interest, how much worse would HST timings be than Pacer timings?

 

[The Ham]

A quick reccy of NRE and I make it twelve stops between Exeter and Penzance and thirteen between Basingstoke and Exeter.

With it taking about 3 hours to run between Penzance and Exeter whilst between Exeter and Basingstoke is half an hour less. i.e. more stops in less time.

Although the cripler for not having IC125's is the capacity, 3xclass 159's have 588 seats over 9 coaches, whilst FGW long distance HST (2+8) has 375 standard class and 112 or 118 first class (487/493 total seats). The HC IC125's are a little better and reconfigering the number of first class seats could improve things a little more, but at the expense of being almost a full 10 coach length.

Basicly class 159's are on the line until it is electrified, unless there is lots of careful planning and mixing IC125's and class 159's but it's unlikely to free up many class 159's for use elsewhere.

 

[David Goddard]

Once replacement electric stock is in place, my plan would be to keep sufficient sets for Devon & Cornwall workings, then transfer the rest to Cross Country for Plymouth - Edinburgh trains, extended to Penzance/Aberdeen respectively at the start and end of the day.
Any sets left after this could bolster the East Coast fleet, which would work all EC trains running north of Newcastle, including more through to Aberdeen, leaving the 91s to do half hourly Newcastle/Leeds trains.

 

[Monty]

You might be able to justify 4 HST power cars being retained for the Night Riviera if the sleeper formations could be properly rewired to accept them.

Would remove the rather troublesome 57s from service and give Laira a uniform fleet of traction for all services.

Would it not be easier to just rewire the power cars rather than the coaches?

 

[Muzer]

I cannot see how an HST would replace a two or three car Class 170 train and the routes the Scotrail class 170's do, I would suspect are not passed for HST Operation anyway.

The only place if they are to stay running, I could see them appearing is on the SWML doing the trains from Waterloo - Salisbury/Exeter replacing the Class 158/159 trains which quite often run as 6 - 8 car trains.

Loco-hauled stock was originally replaced by 159s there because the stops are too close together, IIRC. Will going back to it really be a sane move?

EDIT: Ah, it wasn't anything like HSTs of course, presumably HSTs might be slightly more suitable?

EDIT2: Ah, again, just read the rest of the thread, seems that many agree with me

 

[RobShipway]

Loco-hauled stock was originally replaced by 159s there because the stops are too close together, IIRC. Will going back to it really be a sane move?

EDIT: Ah, it wasn't anything like HSTs of course, presumably HSTs might be slightly more suitable?

EDIT2: Ah, again, just read the rest of the thread, seems that many agree with me

Maybe it is an historical thing as the line did have Class 50 and Class 47 pulling coaches from Waterloo to Salisbury/Exeter prior to the Class 159/158's.

However, I am suspecting that sometime in the future with the line from Basingstoke down to Southampton going OHLE, that you could potentially see an increase in line speed such it would be increased to 110 - 125mph. The stumbling block then is that you could not increase the maximum speed of the Class 159/158's above 90 and the paths these trains take would need to be done at greater speeds. If refurbished HST's do not go on the West of England route then I see either Voyagers or Meridians taking over the route in future, unless it is electrified with OHLE in which case it is more likely to be IEP trains or something similar from Siemens.

 

[broadgage]

I will say that if a HST is scrapped before a pacer then I despair...

Pacers are horrible and must therefore be kept as long as possible, unless something worse can be developed to replace them.

HSTs are comfortable and liked, but too good for todays railway and must therefore be scrapped ASAP. No need to waste effort on developing something worse with which to replace them as we already have voyagers and will soon have the new 5 car DMUs.

The more or less fixed formation of an HST is an advantage from the passengers point of view since it means that the railway can not easily run a short train.
The much touted "flexible train length" of a DMU in practice all too often means shorter.

 

[The Ham]

Maybe it is an historical thing as the line did have Class 50 and Class 47 pulling coaches from Waterloo to Salisbury/Exeter prior to the Class 159/158's.

However, I am suspecting that sometime in the future with the line from Basingstoke down to Southampton going OHLE, that you could potentially see an increase in line speed such it would be increased to 110 - 125mph. The stumbling block then is that you could not increase the maximum speed of the Class 159/158's above 90 and the paths these trains take would need to be done at greater speeds. If refurbished HST's do not go on the West of England route then I see either Voyagers or Meridians taking over the route in future, unless it is electrified with OHLE in which case it is more likely to be IEP trains or something similar from Siemens.

The 159's do not have anything (non electric) currently that have a high enough capacity to replace them. As such they are there to stay until electrification.

As I implyed earlier it could be possible with careful planning to run HST's so that they replace some class 159's on some of the quieter services on the route, which would free up a few class 159's. By doing so SWT's could swap some for some 158's to be able to run more 10 coach trains in the rush hour and potentially a more frequent service around the Salisbury 6.

By doing so there would be a few longer sets (three coaches rather than two) for other operators to use. With the possibility of a few additional sets as well (depending on how many could be released).

The best services to run the HST's on would be those that run to Salisbury, which would keep the services to Exeter as being able to split.

Although there would be a few problems with such an option. Firstly it would require a micro fleet of HST's (three would be enough to run an hourly service, plus one or two spares). Secondly although it could free up 9 class 159's (27 coaches) it is likely that there would need to be at least 10 coaches to operate one of the peak hour services as a 10 coach train (2x159's and 2x158's), whilst more likly it would require 20, which isn't a lot more coaches for others to use (and some of them may be required to lengthen the Exeter peaks from Salisbury). Thirdly if you are keeping that number of trains to be able to run the peak hour services it results in a lot of rolling stock not doing anything for chunks of the day (although it could allow SWT's to have less spare sets for mainternance and the like, as if a HST turned up for a peak hour service due to the DMU's needing mainternace, failing, etc. it wouldn't be a total disaster).

 

[yorksrob]

With it taking about 3 hours to run between Penzance and Exeter whilst between Exeter and Basingstoke is half an hour less. i.e. more stops in less time.

Although the cripler for not having IC125's is the capacity, 3xclass 159's have 588 seats over 9 coaches, whilst FGW long distance HST (2+8) has 375 standard class and 112 or 118 first class (487/493 total seats). The HC IC125's are a little better and reconfigering the number of first class seats could improve things a little more, but at the expense of being almost a full 10 coach length.

Basicly class 159's are on the line until it is electrified, unless there is lots of careful planning and mixing IC125's and class 159's but it's unlikely to free up many class 159's for use elsewhere.

G
Assuming west of exeter is so much worse than the Salisbury route (in spite of being slower and more winding) I still wonder whether the performance of the HST's on such routes has been fully evaluated with their new engines.


Capacity wise, I wonder whether more couldn't be done to reconfigure their seating layout, as has been the case with the commuter HST'S

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I will say that if a HST is scrapped before a pacer then I despair...

This just had me imagining a short-formed (2+2) HST running round the Featherstone loop!

 

[HSTEd]

Would it not be easier to just rewire the power cars rather than the coaches?

No, because then you have non compatible power cars that can't be interchanged with all the others that Laira will still have for West of England services.

Additionally there is no room in a HST body for the equipment necessary to supply locomotive-type ETS, unless you put the equipment in the luggage cage which would remove one of the major advantage of using HST power cars in the first place.

Much easier to simply rewire the coaches as part of a refurbishment.

 

[tbtc]

Once replacement electric stock is in place, my plan would be to keep sufficient sets for Devon & Cornwall workings, then transfer the rest to Cross Country for Plymouth - Edinburgh trains, extended to Penzance/Aberdeen respectively at the start and end of the day.
Any sets left after this could bolster the East Coast fleet, which would work all EC trains running north of Newcastle, including more through to Aberdeen, leaving the 91s to do half hourly Newcastle/Leeds trains.

Maybe if you split the main XC network into two - having Voyager/EMU timings for the Manchester - Bournemouth line (which will be fully electrified in a few years) and slowed down the Aberdeen - Plymouth line to allow HSTs to replace Voyagers then you could find a use for them?

EC will have bi-mode IEP for the Aberdeen (etc) services in a few years though.

 

[al.currie93]

They still have life left in them, and are generally preferred to the alternatives, so I'd like to think that they were put to a new use. Whether this will happen though...

What would be nice is if TOCs retained and ran one or two HSTs on certain services as heritage trains after their frontline withdrawal, similar to the Pretendolino. After all, they're a bit of a British icon!

In my ideal world, I'd replace all 220s, 221s, 222s and 180s with the HSTs for as long as they could run, but this is never going to happen

 

[Buttsy]

It seems to me the only real place you could move them to is Scotland and use them as 2+6 (5 standard, 1 1st) on Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness/Aberdeen and on Glasgow - Edinburgh via Shotts semi-fasts. Could even be used on Stranraer services even shorter formed. . Have additional coaches available that the formations can be permanently increased by 1 (if platform length at Queen Street allows) should demand increase sufficiently.