HS2 Rolling stock

[RobShipway]

Okay, if IEP goes ahead I presume that is going to be the Rolling stock that can work on both Classic and the HS2 line when it is built.

However, I believe there is plans for a European sized fleet to be used just on the HS2 line for the express services initially which will be between Birmingham and London.

So what trains currently being built could fill this requirement?

I am presuming possibly that something like Siemens ICE4 trains could fill this requirement?

 

[YesToHS2]

The guidelines set out for Classics compatible or hybrid trains are quite strict. They have to in effect be exactly the same as the high speed "European" loading gauge trains with the same 225mph top speed ect but also have to have UK loading gauge. Would interest to see what is currently out there that meets the requirements.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/technicalappendix/

 

[TGV]

The guidelines set out for Classics compatible or hybrid trains are quite strict. They have to in effect be exactly the same as the high speed "European" loading gauge trains with the same 225mph top speed ect but also have to have UK loading gauge. Would interest to see what is currently out there that meets the requirements.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/technicalappendix/

Class 373/2, with new motors and gearing! (cheapest way)

 

[Chris125]

Seeing as they wont be ordered for another decade, speculating now is perhaps a little premature

 

[mumrar]

Seeing as they wont be ordered for another decade, speculating now is perhaps a little premature

I agree, seeing as there isn't a single sleeper or any ballast in place yet.

 

[LE Greys]

Class 373/2, with new motors and gearing! (cheapest way)

Agreed. Let's assume that Eurostar do a complete fleet replacement in the interim. Repatriate the NoL sets, shorten the 3C sets to 2+14, remove the multi-voltage equipment (not needed and saves weight), new motors and gearing (as you suggested) and a full interior refurbishment. A few gauging issues need sorting, the KEVII Bridge for instance. It might be possible to run the sets in pairs from London (or Paris or Brussels) to Birmingham, then split them. Initially, just one set going on to Glasgow, but later one to Glasgow and one to Newcastle.

 

[YesToHS2]

According to Wikipedia the 373 are being refurbed to last until at least 2020. The only problem I see is that in order to operate the preferred time table 45 CC sets would be required.

 

[Chris125]

They wont be using 373's - they'll be over 30 years old and with the modifications required not a realistic option. Much more likely it'll be an off the shelf design, perhaps the latest offering from Siemens/Alstom/China(?) alongside a 'son of eurostar' for classic lines, perhaps tunnel compatible if an international service uses the NLL.

Common sense would suggest the two being compatible to ease pathing and increase flexibility, but i wouldnt put any money on it...

Chris

 

[gordonthemoron]

I'd suggest they buy some second hand ICE1s from DB, they'll only be 30 years old by 2021

 

[Traindesign]

Okay, if IEP goes ahead I presume that is going to be the Rolling stock that can work on both Classic and the HS2 line when it is built.

However, I believe there is plans for a European sized fleet to be used just on the HS2 line for the express services initially which will be between Birmingham and London.

So what trains currently being built could fill this requirement?

I am presuming possibly that something like Siemens ICE4 trains could fill this requirement?

With reference to the HST2 project, i have an interesting design which could turn this and some other routes on there head, a duplex which works within C1 !!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Im new on this forum and have been trawling around various chats and threads, i was very interested in the threads regarding the HST2 project. Once again we have looked at longer trains and therefore longer platforms and moving track circuits ect.
I actually have a design for a duplex train which will operate quite happily in C1 gauge and will do this as an EMU, DMU or HST.
I plan to introduce this to the market in the new year.

 

[MCR247]

And it won't have clearance issues with bridges/tunnels/OHL? sounds good

 

[Traindesign]

No, there are no clearence issues, this fact has been ironed out by the Lloyds of London and DFT gauging expert.

 

[LE Greys]

No, there are no clearence issues, this fact has been ironed out by the Lloyds of London and DFT gauging expert.

Well, it's been attempted, not least by OVS Bulleid. The problem is that you either have to bend double in one section or have staggered compartments (Bulleid's solution). Can we have more details please?

 

[Traindesign]

There is no need to bend double on this train !! Bullied did the best with what he had to work with at the time i guess, my design boasts 6'6 headroom and has been designed with 15 years as a type test and commissioning engineer's worth of experience. Next step mock up !!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm guessing it involves articulated bogies and an ultra low floor in between?

*Would like the exterior to look like the Z20500 class in Paris please*

 

[Traindesign]

The end product will be in many guises, it will be available as a multiple (375/377) type config or an HST, I have also designed a few vehicles which will really turn heads next year when i go public. Hopefully the DFT will play ball, my problem is though that even though i have 16 years under my belt as a type test and commissioning engineer i am just "Joe Public" to the DFT, NR and our trusty government. As i explained to the DFT when i met with them some time ago although im not Bombardier, Siemens or dare i say Alstom, i have spent 16 years putting right there design faults so i know very well how not to build a train !!!

 

[EWS 58038]

Guys... we're talking about something far in future...

By that time some people have realised the British loading gauge is costing the country a lot of money because everything has to be re-designed solely for the British market.

So what I expect is that some routes will be adapted to UIC standard gauge so that any train can be bought from the shelve, reducing engineering and design costs by at least 20 percent and that would also reflect in the construction and lease prices.

 

[Chris125]

Im sorry, but the savings from using continental size stock will never be greater than the cost of converting sizeable lengths of the rail network. You have to remember its not just the issue of height, but also width which makes the cost prohibitive, and that will never change.

Chris

 

[LE Greys]

Platform height would also present some serious problems. High platforms, such as ours, are much more convenient for level access. Even if they would fit through bridges and tunnels, most continental stock would clip platform edges. Trimming them back would leave a gap for British stock, and so is not a good idea.

I think we're stuck with what we've got.

 

[RobShipway]

I still think a better idea than using IEP would be to have longer length Voyager/Meridian trains with at least one pantograph car included for the HS2/Classic routes and have the Siemens IE400 trains for the HS2 route.

 

[junglejames]

I still think a better idea than using IEP would be to have longer length Voyager/Meridian trains with at least one pantograph car included for the HS2/Classic routes and have the Siemens IE400 trains for the HS2 route.

Nah. A new Eurostar. Fits our loading gauge, goes through the tunnel, runs on European high speed lines. Perfect in virtually every sense.
Dont want anything built by Siemens. Never seen a comfortable Siemens train yet (and that includes 1st class on the ICEs)

 

[LE Greys]

Nah. A new Eurostar. Fits our loading gauge, goes through the tunnel, runs on European high speed lines. Perfect in virtually every sense.
Dont want anything built by Siemens. Never seen a comfortable Siemens train yet (and that includes 1st class on the ICEs)

I agree with that, on the strength of the Desiros. ICE-1s are very comfortable, but I think the coaches were built by someone else.

Personally, a new Eurostar sounds fine. Perhaps call it InterCity 325. The main question there would be whether to stick with articulation or go back to separate coaches. Both seem to work fine at various speeds, although I prefer the flexibility that separate coaches provide.

 

[Drsatan]

Personally, a new Eurostar sounds fine. Perhaps call it InterCity 325. The main question there would be whether to stick with articulation or go back to separate coaches. Both seem to work fine at various speeds, although I prefer the flexibility that separate coaches provide.

Articulated trains are safer since articulated coaches don't jackknife if the train derails. I read somewhere that a TGV derailed at 186mph and because the train's coaches were articulated the train didn't jackknife, which helped ensure that no-one was killed in the accident.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That is correct, and more than once a major disaster has been prevented by articulation.

Amongst other incidents, there has been a case of a TGV hitting a lorry on a crossing, a TGV that had a bogie disintegrate and a Eurostar ( 3101/2 ) that had an undetected WW1 trench collapse under it on the LGV Nord.

All stayed upright and in line. All were at high speed.

 

[TGV]

Articulation has the advantages stated above with regard to the strength and integrity of the formation. It also results in very smooth riding. The only downside is that it results in shorter carriages due to bogie pivot distances. Therefore you can usually fit more passengers per given train length with traditional bogies and couplers. If the design uses disrtibuted traction then again, traditional bogies offer an advantage. However for the ultimate in maximum speed stability its articulation all the way.

 

[RobShipway]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but when is it that the government makes it's announcement about HS2 and Crossrail stock please?

 

[WatcherZero]

HS2 stock announcement a decade away.
Crossrail stock has been put out to tender, someone else can probably tell you the date the prefered bidder is expected to be announced.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They wont be using 373's - they'll be over 30 years old and with the modifications required not a realistic option. Much more likely it'll be an off the shelf design, perhaps the latest offering from Siemens/Alstom/China(?) alongside a 'son of eurostar' for classic lines, perhaps tunnel compatible if an international service uses the NLL.

Common sense would suggest the two being compatible to ease pathing and increase flexibility, but i wouldnt put any money on it...

Chris

Actually I can see the 373s being ideal for HS2 services beyond Birmingham. This is because Eorostar could buy off-the shelf designs to replace all their 373s so that should be a lot more cost effective. The 373s are not going to be used for London to Birmingham services. The 373s only need to last about ten years on HS2 as by about 2030 HS2 will have reached Manchester (OK OK I am not being cynical enough !). Glasgow would take longer than ten years to get connected. The 373s could last because, like Concorde, HS2 could nurse an oversized (quantity) fleet pf 373s with low annual usage (like EWS/DBS appear to have done with the 60s).

HS2 only need to buy enough Eropean guage trains to keep the pressure off their ageing 373s. HS2 to could make an offer to Eurostar for the 373s at a price that is attractive to HS2 BUT also helps Eorustar offset some of the cost of new larger loading guage trains.

A benefit of this plan is that nothing needs to be done now (oops prompts cynical thoughts). First deadline is when does Eurostar need more/newer trains (so when can they off-load 373s). Second deadline is when does HS2 need 373s for services beyond Birmingham.

On the subject of HS2 the line seems to terminate at Birmingham with a branch missing Birmingham and linking the the WCML (for future extension to the NW but at first for use of the old WCML). So I assume Manchester trains cannot go via Birmingham or even originate from Birmingham. Is that not a backward step like a throwback (100 years) to the days when Euston to the NW services all went via the terminus in Birmingham called Curzon Street !. I think Birmingham New Street was built to resolve this but a century later we seem to be walking into the same trap. Birminham HS2 should be a through station.

 

[sprinterguy]

On the subject of HS2 the line seems to terminate at Birmingham with a branch missing Birmingham and linking the the WCML (for future extension to the NW but at first for use of the old WCML). So I assume Manchester trains cannot go via Birmingham or even originate from Birmingham. Is that not a backward step like a throwback (100 years) to the days when Euston to the NW services all went via the terminus in Birmingham called Curzon Street !. I think Birmingham New Street was built to resolve this but a century later we seem to be walking into the same trap. Birminham HS2 should be a through station.

The junction near Birmingham International will be a triangular junction, so there will be the opportunity for Birmingham-Manchester trains via HS2. I do agree though that the new Curzon Street station should be a through station.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The junction near Birmingham International will be a triangular junction, so there will be the opportunity for Birmingham-Manchester trains via HS2. I do agree though that the new Curzon Street station should be a through station.

Thanks, history repeating itself again then !.

I find myself thinking there used to be a straight railway line from near Birmingham New Street through the whole West Midlands conurbation to just beyond Wolverhampton. I am talking about the old GW Snowhill route. If the route was GW then perhaps it is to Brunels LARGE (European ?) loading guage. I think it is all still there ? - has not been developed on apart from trams. I wonder if it was four track or the trams could still be fitted in alongside somehow. Damn waste of a good route otherwise. From Moor Street towards London the trackbed is wide enough for four tracks (if I recall correctly) so I am sure two tracks could be fitted in for HS2. That way HS2 from London could connect up somewhere West of Tysely and deposit HS2 trains onto the heritage network just North of Wolverhapton. The current services that use Snowhill might fit into New Street if New Street no longer supports such a heavy London and Anglo Scottish service OR Moor Street gains more platforms. Moor Street is quite close to New Street (travalator ?). That would avoid the twists and winds of the Trent Valley Route.