HS2 rolling stock features

[WatcherZero]

Suppose your right, second phase may have better views depending on local opposition, if it follows an M6 allignment on viaduct it may have quite good views.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is that true for all HS2? Even the possible extensions?

HS2 will be in tunnel for most of its' length from Euston to Amersham, after which it will be out in the open air for the majority of the rest of the journey to Birmingham, though with some short-ish sections of deep cutting.

The route map on the HS2 consultation website shows which sections will be in tunnel, etc:
http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/in-your-area

There's a conspicuous lack of a key to the colour coding, but it seems to be the case that sections coloured black are in tunnel and sections coloured light blue are viaducts and bridges.

 

[button_boxer]

I would have thought that the requirement for crumple zones would put paid to any chance of a forward view. How do they get away with it on the ICE3, does Germany not require the same amount of crumple zone, or is it just that the nose cone counts as part of the length?

 

[Chris125]

Most of the time the trains will be on the classic lines apart from the non stop Birmingham-london shuttles, so I would expect tilting, hopefully on rolling stock of a similar interior to a Mark 4 (6 degrees tilt) than a 390.

But we will get 3+2 airline style seating throughout and tiny windows that dont line up with the seats/.

They wont tilt, the extra weight rules them out for high speed operation. Though this will have an impact on trainsets using the classic lines, this can be mitigated to a certain extent with infrastructure upgrades.

Chris

 

[WatcherZero]

After the Consultation started the Government promised another £150m or something to put the majority of the route in cutting and reduce the noise level impacts from thousands of homes to tens of homes.

 

[HSTEd]

They wont tilt, the extra weight rules them out for high speed operation. Though this will have an impact on trainsets using the classic lines, this can be mitigated to a certain extent with infrastructure upgrades.

Chris

Has this been included in the time estimates for London-Glasgow under phase one? Also doesn't the N700 series Shinkansen tilt a bit and is capable of 170mph+.... and the E-6 series "Mini-Shinkansen" can do it too and are even faster.

EDIT:
An ETR-610 Pendolino has an axle weight of approximately 16.5tonnes at maximum due to its EMU nature, this is considerably lighter than the axle loading of a separate power car such as that on a TGV and therefore I can't see how track stress could really be much higher on the high speed lines.

 

[WatcherZero]

They have a Active suspension rather than computer controlled I believe, which might not do to good tilting into lineside equipment

Yes lack of Tilt has been built into the time estimates, its why phase 1 doesnt shave any time off Scotland transits and why they wont operate any HSR services to Scotland until phase 2.

 

[notadriver]

Not sure about these "forward viewing lounges", I wanna drive these things one day and it seems a bit weird to have people watching you do everything!

Hmmm true. But on trams passengers can always see the driver.

 

[Zoe]

Yes lack of Tilt has been built into the time estimates, its why phase 1 doesnt shave any time off Scotland transits and why they wont operate any HSR services to Scotland until phase 2.

Why not? If you route via HS2 as far as Birmingham then it will reduce congestion on the WCML south of Birmingham even if the journey time isn't faster.

 

[Barrett M95]

Has this been included in the time estimates for London-Glasgow under phase one? Also doesn't the N700 series Shinkansen tilt a bit and is capable of 170mph+.... and the E-6 series "Mini-Shinkansen" can do it too and are even faster.

EDIT:
An ETR-610 Pendolino has an axle weight of approximately 16.5tonnes at maximum due to its EMU nature, this is considerably lighter than the axle loading of a separate power car such as that on a TGV and therefore I can't see how track stress could really be much higher on the high speed lines.

If these figures are correct, it is virtually identical to a TGV power car axle loading of 17t

 

[WatcherZero]

Why not? If you route via HS2 as far as Birmingham then it will reduce congestion on the WCML south of Birmingham even if the journey time isn't faster.

Phase 1 services will only go as far as Preston, they dont want to make Scotland or North East services slower! Besides that already frees up half of the Birmingham and Manchester paths. You would also have to order classic compatible trains for Scotland routes, which would be a waste when the Classic compatible Manchester/North West ones are made available by phase 2.

 

[HSTEd]

As I doubt tehy will be running ten trains per hour to Birmingham, you could flight the existing 390s with the dedicated high speed stock and have them run flat out at 140mph all the way to the end of the high speed route.

 

[All Line Rover]

A UK version of the Siemens Velaro or a double decker would be options I'd approve.

The interior would be similar to the DB ICE3 with a forward viewing lounge, comfortable seating with decent legroom and foot rests, classy interior touches, power points at every seat, speed indicators, mirrors used to give the illusion of space, a proper buffet counter with perch seating and tables, baggage racks for larger items to ensure enough storage for everyone, a small number of glass compartments with bays of six for groups and good quality leather seating throughout. Full Wi-Fi throughout, of course, free for first class passengers. Enhanced phone coverage in the appropriate areas, signal-blockers in Quiet Zones. Interactive touch-screen kiosks for connection and train running information.

Most of these design ideas are 'borrowed' from my favourite European high-speed train, which makes me realise the poor direction that train interiors have been going in the UK.

I'd make the interior as stylish and comfortable as possible, within budget constraints. This is going to be the flagship. I am probably dreaming unfortunately and we'll get Pendo MK2.

Is all of this really necessary for a 49 minute journey?
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Preferably I would have it based on the A Train but with: a restaurant car, a café bar, wifi, tables in line with windows, (I'd ask for slam doors too but that'd never happen lol )

Defiantly NO Bombadier parts...Seimens/Hitachi only cheers.

Again, what is the point of have a restaurant car on a 49 minute journey?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure about these "forward viewing lounges", I wanna drive these things one day and it seems a bit weird to have people watching you do everything!

Agreed. Seems a little intrusive.

 

[Zoe]

Phase 1 services will only go as far as Preston, they dont want to make Scotland or North East services slower!

Would they actually be slower though? Considering the high speed they run at if they can get to Preston faster than a train from London on the WCML then why is it going to be slower going to Glasgow?

 

[HSTEd]

Is all of this really necessary for a 49 minute journey?

It will take 49 minutes to reach Glasgow? we are assuming that they would want a homogeneous fleet for the entirety of the line and 49 minutes in a sardine can or 1 hour 15 on a nicer train.

EDIT: Yeah, the EMUs advantage means that a fully motored one, or one approaching fully motored, can obtain tilting while keeping its axle weight within reasonable limits. I've been thinking about this quite a lot as part of my random summer break thought-experiment (I come up with them to occupy me while I perform repetitive tasks on a food processing product line) to introduce some sort of unholy IC270 on the ECML.

 

[All Line Rover]

I have absolutely no idea why people have mentioned 3+2 seating. Considering Richard Hammond () has indicated that HS2 will have similar "sky-high" Anytime fares to the WCML, who on earth thinks that HS2 will be some sort of commuter service?

I am 100% confident that HS2 will have 2+2 seating. Perhaps the trains should be wider - we don't want to restrict innovation simply to maintain backward compatibility - but they shouldn't be so wide that they have 2+3 seating (such as in Japan). No one likes 2+3 seating! Just having a wider isle would be nice - it's ridiculous trying to get through Standard Class on many British trains. Having double-decker trains would also be nice, but considering the trains will run through tunnels for much of the journey (as people have already mentioned), will this really be considered? It would certainly increase the cost of creating those tunnels!

I don't see the point of having restaurant cars. A cafe bar (like on Eurostar) - yes. A restaurant car - no. HS2 will be Britain's flagship high-speed train service, and since Britain is fairly small, the journey times will be very short. Much too short to have a 3-course meal!

The trains should have the following features:

• 2+2 seating in Standard Class, with plenty of legroom and padding (good enough to sleep in, like on the refurbished Arriva 158's)
• 2+1 seating in First Class
• Power sockets at every seat
• A large cafe-bar, with plenty of space to move about
• All seats line up with the windows (there is no reason why they shouldn't - HS2 trains won't have to tilt like Pendolinos or Voyagers)
• Lots of disabled toilets
• Lots of luggage space (they will, after all, be used for InterCity journeys, when people carry the most luggage)
• Wide isles - including in Standard Class (maybe)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It will take 49 minutes to reach Glasgow? we are assuming that they would want a homogeneous fleet for the entirety of the line and 49 minutes in a sardine can or 1 hour 15 on a nicer train.

Why should trains to Glasgow be identical to trains to Birmingham? That's a long, long way off - I don't know why that would be discussed now! Birmingham itself is a long way off! It's not as if they would order identical stock to save money on bulk ordering, because the time-frames involved are too long.

 

[Class172]

I would like to see a comeback of compartments, the majority would still be open seating though.

 

[All Line Rover]

I would like to see a comeback of compartments, the majority would still be open seating though.

That's definitely wishful thinking.

 

[sprinterguy]

That's definitely wishful thinking.

Well, the Mercury trains that were prospectively drawn up as a potential design of HS2 (Not that it'll end up being the chosen design IMO) did feature glass panelled compartments ("business pods" or whatever) in first class. And there are plenty of high speed trains on the continent that feature compartment-style arrangements in first class.

 

[Nym]

It's being built to a full EU Guage anyway, so double deckers are a possibility...

 

[All Line Rover]

It's being built to a full EU Guage anyway, so double deckers are a possibility...

Do you have a source for this?

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes lack of Tilt has been built into the time estimates, its why phase 1 doesnt shave any time off Scotland transits and why they wont operate any HSR services to Scotland until phase 2.

What source do you have for this?

The "Economic Case for HS2" report, released in February in this year, that I have to hand says that Glasgow trains will be moved onto HS2 from the opening of Phase 1.

 

[WestCoast]

The forward viewing lounge that I suggested was purely as an extravagance really. It won't happen for various reasons. However, DB drivers seem quite used to it and I believe they do have the choice of privacy, but most don't. I"d very much welcome double deckers too, in order to cater for future demand through a bit of forward planning, which isn't the normal thing here. They are not gimmicks at all, they boost capacity immensely.

 

[ainsworth74]

Do you have a source for this?

Hasn't every document that's been published about HS2 included the fact that HS2 will be built to a continental loading gauge (GC I believe it's called)? Certainly nothing that I've read has ever suggested it being built to anything less. So with that in mind it's means that double decker trains are certainly a possibility.

 

[All Line Rover]

Hasn't every document that's been published about HS2 included the fact that HS2 will be built to a continental loading gauge (GC I believe it's called)? Certainly nothing that I've read has ever suggested it being built to anything less. So with that in mind it's means that double decker trains are certainly a possibility.

The tunnel size must be taken into account, though. And information regarding the size of these tunnels has been very scarce.

 

[Barrett M95]

Double deck trains to UIC B or C gauge are fine and good, but of little use for through trains to Glasgow (ones that will be high speed to Manchester, then classic line onwards north) - for these services it will have to be normal UK gauging.

Unless there was to be a sub-fleet of trains that were "captive" on HS2 and never ventured beyond, but I can't imagine all North of England and Scotland services being kept to classic lines all the way with B'ham and Manchester having HS2 all to themselves if you like. Therefore there must be UK gauge trains using HS2 which rules out double deck sets for those services.

Is it likely therefore that there will be TWO classes - one built to UIC B, B+ or C gauge for only HS2 use and another longer distance train built to a small "go anywhere" loading gauge...?

Discuss....

 

[sprinterguy]

Is it likely therefore that there will be TWO classes - one built to UIC B, B+ or C gauge for only HS2 use and another longer distance train built to a small "go anywhere" loading gauge...?

I thought that was the current plan. I'm sure there was an HS2 document that I read somewhere that went so far as offering some tentative fleet sizes of HS2-only and "Classic Compatible" trains.

 

[Barrett M95]

I thought that was the current plan. I'm sure there was an HS2 document that I read somewhere that went so far as offering some tentative fleet sizes of HS2-only and "Classic Compatible" trains.

Possibly - there are SO many HS2 related documents floating around the ether, it's hard to know which ones have been superceded, which ones are correct and which ones were nothing more than speculation to begin with!

 

[HSTEd]

I thought the plan was to build the infrastructure to accept continental trains and then use classic compatible ones for the forseeable future myself.
And if Birmingham is going to be on the line years ahead of Manchester and Leeds we will end up with a tonne of mini classes.

 

[sprinterguy]

Possibly - there are SO many HS2 related documents floating around the ether, it's hard to know which ones have been superceded, which ones are correct and which ones were nothing more than speculation to begin with!

It certainly is; it's almost impossible to keep up with all the revisions that keep being made!

I've found the document that I read about the train fleet sizes; it's the same "Economic Case for High Speed 2" document from February this year as I referenced earlier in this thread.
http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/sites/highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/files/hs2-economic-case.pdf

It states that the initial fleet at the beginning of Phase 1 will consist of:
High Speed (HS) standard captive (HS track) fleet: 16 sets
HS classic-compatible fleet (i.e. for use on both existing track and HS track): 45 sets

It also makes the assumption that all of these trains would be 200 metres long and have 550 seats, although surely at this early stage those figures can be little more than estimates.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The tunnel size must be taken into account, though. And information regarding the size of these tunnels has been very scarce.

The size of the tunnel bores on HS2 won't be restrictive on loading gauge: In order to allow trains to pass each other at 300km/h (186mph) without creating a massive flux in air pressure, the tunnels on the TGV Rhone Alpes line have been built with a cross-section of 100 square metres. The current aspiration is for HS2 to be engineered to allow 400km/h (250mph) running, so the tunnel bores should be even bigger!

I see no reason why HS2 would not be constructed to the maximum loading gauge possible.