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HS2 Plan B?

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WatcherZero

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The consultation was meant to be a rubber stamping project, by all accounts the public have rallied quite effectivley against and while it has the overwhelming support of business we all know how weak at the knees politicans can be.

So IF HS2 was cancelled what do you think would happen next?

* Firstly there wouldnt be a huge pool of money suddenly available, until 2017/18 when project spend should be around £2bn per year only a few tens of million is being spent on planning and consultation. Any new money available for spending would mostly be in the 2018-2025 timeframe.

* This isnt a discussion on what you want to happen (electrify everything, more improvement of classic lines, etc) this is what you think will theoretically occur.

In this scenario I would predict the money would be diverted to education or public debt repayment, both of which would be in need of extra billions in that timeframe (particularly the cockup on Student fees, not putting aside enough money to fund the £9,000 p/a student loans).

So what happens to the railways you say? A program of trying to find extra capacity by running services through the night with included hotel rooms on the ticket. Mandatory seat reservations. Maintenence squeezed into more intensive blitz on specific targeted lines during weekends, more diversions and a 2 hour nightly inspection/snagging window. Intercity becomes a single nation wide company to better manage closures and diversions.
 
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tbtc

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I think that if the Government isn't able to push through HS2 to improve our capacity to move people long distances then they may be more tempted to spend an equivalent amount of money on upgrading roads/ airports. This would then mean rail losing out twice. Just my opinion though. Not what I want, I hasten to add.
 

Zoe

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I think that if the Government isn't able to push through HS2 to improve our capacity to move people long distances then they may be more tempted to spend an equivalent amount of money on upgrading roads/ airports.
I doubt it, these days CO2 is taken into account when deciding infrastructure improvements and both road and air projects would result in higher CO2 levels compared to rail. It could be an option though to try and reduce the need for people to travel.
 

Zoe

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The HS2 money won't go anywhere else, the main business case is that it will pay for itself in 25 years.
This assumes there will be the same or more demand for travel in 25 years time.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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So IF HS2 was cancelled what do you think would happen next?

In this scenario I would predict the money would be diverted to education or public debt repayment, both of which would be in need of extra billions in that timeframe (particularly the cockup on Student fees, not putting aside enough money to fund the £9,000 p/a student loans).

Based upon the stated aim of this Government that the public defecit reduction is paramount over all other committments, during the term of their tenure in office, there will be no case of either ..or". The defecit reduction will take precedence.

Sorry for being so blunt.
 

swt_passenger

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The HS2 money won't go anywhere else, the main business case is that it will pay for itself in 25 years.

That's one of the misleading aspects of the roadside signs I saw recently in parts of Warwickshire, such as on the Banbury to Southam road...

The suggestion on every other lampost of 'HS2 or New Schools', or HS2 or New Hospitals', relies very much on people's misunderstanding of how government funds different things, as if there's a pot of money burning a hole in someone's pocket and they aren't sure what to spend it on...
 

TomJ93

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24 Apr 2010
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865
Why not upgrade the entire WCML to 125mph? Where possible 140mph running should be enabled.

I have worked out the timings for my proposal and will post later.

It's not much slower, no houses are destroyed and the current green belt remains. Only the infrastructure remains to be improved- the 390s can handle the speeds and we can order more! Tag on an order for the WR as well which will bring the costs down- as well as lengthening the current ones that are to remain nine cars. I know people on here have their opinions on the 390s, but passengers seem to like them and their reliability. Look on the brightside we don't end up with IEP! We can keep the 57s to operate services that won't be ran on electrified lines.

Upgrading the current WCML is far more beneficial to the country, especially at Birmingham where services from places like Cheltenham could interchange with our lovely new upgraded WCML at lovely new New Street! Manchester, Liverpool, Preston would all have interchange opportunities too. Rather than HS2 interchanging at Manc, Leeds and Glasgow (reaching these places eventually!) New signalling would enable a higher capacity (not clues up on it, but surely it can be done?)

Apart from Leeds, the same places (and more) are reached as HS2 would. The French managed to upgrade existing infrastructure, we can do the same. The WCML is only the start, the ECML, GWML and MML can all be done! (The latter two after having some of Grannies knitting strung up!)

Just so you know that idea is intellectual property of mine, so don't go emailing Phillip Hammond! ;)
 

Yew

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Maybe 4 track the ECML? maybe the MML too (extend up to scotland somehow?)
 

WatcherZero

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to get from 125 to 140mph on the WCML it would cost in the order of 13-20bn, no accounting system in the world could show that as a positive BCR. You would also have to knock down many houses that have grown up along the railway building longer gentler curves, particularly on the bits which are already slow.
 

LE Greys

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Instigate my Great Central-based plan for HS2, with a conventional line over the Woodhead to link to Manchester, also providing an alternative South Trans-Pennine route and a connection to Leeds, allowing trains to reach Edinburgh and Glasgow. Cost would probably be about the same, but the route would be more flexible, based on an existing line (reopenings are more popular than new routes) and offer options for XC diversions, plus giving Buckingham and Brackley suburban routes to London.
 

anthony263

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Instigate my Great Central-based plan for HS2, with a conventional line over the Woodhead to link to Manchester, also providing an alternative South Trans-Pennine route and a connection to Leeds, allowing trains to reach Edinburgh and Glasgow. Cost would probably be about the same, but the route would be more flexible, based on an existing line (reopenings are more popular than new routes) and offer options for XC diversions, plus giving Buckingham and Brackley suburban routes to London.

Sounds like a good idea, I wonder if someone in the government might be interested in taking a look, particulary if it saves money and it will cause less disruption
 

Metrailway

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Instigate my Great Central-based plan for HS2, with a conventional line over the Woodhead to link to Manchester, also providing an alternative South Trans-Pennine route and a connection to Leeds, allowing trains to reach Edinburgh and Glasgow. Cost would probably be about the same, but the route would be more flexible, based on an existing line (reopenings are more popular than new routes) and offer options for XC diversions, plus giving Buckingham and Brackley suburban routes to London.

The people along the HS2 route would gain no benefit if the rail line was built, so why doesn't the Govt add some relatively cheap sweeteners to win support of the people along the line such as:
  • For Brackley - reopen the Calvet - Brackley Central part of the line, to allow Aylesbury/Marylebone services to be extended. You are already building a railway on embankments/viaducts. Thus such a re-opening would cost a minimal amount if done in conjuction with the building of HS2.
  • For Aylesbury Vale/Chilterns - reopen the Varsity line. Admittedly, this would cost more than the Brackley Central reopening so maybe this could be partially funded by local TOC (Chiltern). As there will be a connection from HS2 to the Aylesbury line at Calvert, due to the planned HS2 depot, you could, if feasible, run about 3-5 services a day from Marylebone to The North via Aylesbury and HS2, thus giving Aylesbury Vale direct benefit from the line.
  • For Warwickshire/Coventry - reopen Kenilworth station, and fund line improvements to the Coventry - Leamington and Coventry - Nuneaton lines to allow a better local services. Of course, as HS2 relieves the WCML, there ought to be space for more services between Coventry and Birmingham as well as Coventry and London.
 

WatcherZero

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Your forgetting the major issue is that many of the people along the lines primary means of transport is the car and the average house price is in the 400-600k range.
 

PhilipW

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by all accounts the public have rallied quite effectivley against it.

... but have they .... ?

The people through whose areas the line will go have rallied effectively against it. That's true.

I suspect that most of the public are actually in favour of the scheme. I can't prove that assertion, but I suspect it to be true.

I think the tail is wagging the dog. The people against it are against it just because it goes through their area, not because the idea is a bad one.

.... that's my opinion ..

... and Yes, I do support the scheme, the full Y to Manchester and Leeds.
 

WatcherZero

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I can forsee the Consultation results....

1000 replies from Business broadly in favour
250 replies from organisations and rail industry in favour
150 replies from local groups, MP's and councils it passes through against
5000 replies from the general public in favour
380000 replies from the general public against
 

pablo

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If economies are being looked for then HS2 must be high on the list but the capacity problem of the WCML needs to be addressed somehow. This is my Plan B and I reckon it could be delivered for half the cost of HS2 but give much the same output if you overlook the excessive provision for BHM in HS2's shuttle proposals. It was written in reply to an article published elsewhere and I haven't the time to rewrite so bear with it's obtuseness if you will.

Is it High Speed Madness?

I disagree with HS2. We need a more integrated transport system. The cost and tribulations of getting about in this country are discouraging. The scheme is projected to be far too expensive. It doesn’t integrate properly with Europe and not very well with the existing Victorian system either. It’s almost a stand-alone vanity project for London-centric politicians.

Essentially, it would merely six-track the WCML for relief of forecast capacity constraints but by putting the extra two tracks on an entirely different alignment. There is no need to build a separate line for that. In an overall journey context, the time savings proffered would be neither here nor there. Until we decide that we want to be integrated with Europe, I think we should hold back until there is a positive vote. We then build a line that is a true extension of the European High Speed network. HS2 Ltd’s belated attempt at integration includes an enormously expensive and inadequate single track, all tunnel, connection between Old Oak Common and the North London Line near St. Pancras that will constrain capacity for evermore.

Also, if there is still no serious intention of sending North of London services through to the Continent, then there is no need at all for a ‘captive fleet’ to GB+ gauge. They will just be Birmingham shuttles. Why have two incompatible fleets when you don’t need the difference? The line might need to be built to GB+ gauge though, for future proofing.

So why not do what’s actually needed? Six tracking the WCML to Roade with four tracking to Birmingham and Trent Valley does the job. It doesn’t give quite the same bums on seats to Birmingham but it does give the paths required on the WCML. It is more integrated than HS2, obviates having two different fleets initially and costs considerably less. The alignment could allow 140mph running, with or without tilt and ERTMS, resulting in the bonus of HS2’s Time Savings without the cost!

So, what follows here is not HS2 but it includes a proper connection to HS1. And that would have to be operated by the short formed type 373s that were, long ago, intended for the job. This route compares favourably with the demolition and disruption of HS2’s proposed Ruislip route. By operating more slowly, it meets some of the green objections over emissions and there’s no need at all for an OOC station. It doesn’t require the relocation of a tube line or reconstruction of railway junctions. Euston station does not have to be re-built. More platforms can be fitted in without wholesale demolition. All but two are already long enough for eleven car Pendolinos. The centre two can be extended to fit 9-cars. Twenty platforms can be had without much knocking about. Overground will have to go underground sooner or later and that will be a serious cost. A box to one side will take it like Thameslink, with southward extension possibilities; Euston is a constraint on this scheme and westward extension may be required for more platforms in future. But it doesn’t need to go 2m deeper and take over the whole district as HS2 proposes. It doesn’t need 400m platforms for twenty-car trains. European services could go directly to St. Pancras or Stratford.

This line would exit Euston and branch left on Camden Bank, tunnelling under Primrose Hill itself, further south than HS2’s proposal, and emerging west of Willesden where there are possible sites. Then land-take, compulsory purchase and demolish up the east side to Watford. It’s quite possible. There is a bit spare on that side much of the way. Although the amount of demolition isn’t exactly light, it’s less than HS2’s Ruislip route. Construct a flyover or tunnel at Watford and then burrow under the two existing tunnels and cross over to the west side. Emerging north, the line doesn’t have to follow slavishly the existing WCML. Constraints around Kings Langley, Berkhamsted, et al can be circumvented by using HS2’s route 4 (the blue one), roughly following the A41. The rejoin would be north of Tring with a dodge through or under Leighton Buzzard. If that is not viable, rejoin at Bletchley or Milton Keynes. I don’t suppose the original straight-through route at Wolverton is available, so a dive-under might be required. Double deck the track at Roade or strike out to the west. Continue four-tracking towards Rugby. Again, a completely separate alignment might be better here and, rather than compete for space at Rugby, by-pass the town to the south, then Coventry Parkway, rejoin south of Birmingham Int’l and approaching New Street, branch on a chord into an enlarged Snow Hill by a new curved tunnel.

It might be better to use Moor Street as the terminus for Chiltern Railways and Snow Hill for this line since there is enough space for 400m platforms if ever required and obvious northward extension possibilities. I’m not too familiar with this neck of the woods but Handsworth, Tame Bridge and the M6 one side or other to Stafford looks a viable route.

If the Euston to Willesden tunnel was built as Phase 1, then it could carry the slow lines into Euston temporarily while the existing slows via Primrose Hill tunnels were enlarged and bored out to GB+ gauge thus giving a proper twin track connection to HS1 via the surface NLL at a fraction of the cost of HS2’s proposal, the enormously expensive choice and serious constraint of a lengthy single track tunnel; an option which would forever limit through European operations.

In a way, HS1 shows the way it can be done and it only cost £6 billion for roughly the same distance. This cost included the lengthy London tunnels. It’s quite a civilised railway to live with! Yes, I know this is digging up the WCML again but think of the savings to be spent digging up the network elsewhere! This scheme meets the capacity requirement and also gives a breathing space to decide if we want to be properly integrated with Europe. I don’t see it costing anything like £17 billion but it provides similar infrastructure without the excess. The ‘captive fleet’ could come later and, when it does, apart from just providng a London-Brum shuttle, it could also do direct services to Europe.

Why does this sort of scheme not figure in the options? It seems we are frightened of a repeat of the WCML Modernisation fiasco and think a completely fresh line is the answer. The Modernisation was, at one time, projected to cost £13 billion but cut back to £9 billion by omitting deliverables and enhancements. 140 mph running and in-cab signalling went together with infrastructure that was deferred. It took the best part of ten years to execute; significant disruption to pax and compensation payable to the Train Op Cos. Building a new line alongside the existing one is not the same as re-building an operating and active railway although integration at certain points would be part of the scheme.

If the vote for Europe is yes, then we build HS2 proper. It could be realigned centrally up the country to give better advantage to more people and have a through station in London instead of another dead-end terminal. HS2 should be conceived as part of the European network, don’t you think?
 

Squaddie

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The people through whose areas the line will go have rallied effectively against it. That's true.

I suspect that most of the public are actually in favour of the scheme.
Actually, I think the majority of the public are either utterly indifferent to the project or don't even know it's happening.

High-speed rail is great - just look at the lines being built across (and beneath) the entire continent at this very moment just to knock half an hour off a journey. But the UK doesn't know how to run a railway, and there is no reason to believe that HS2 will be anything but another overcrowded, overpriced, unreliable line. How long will it be before the first HS2 Replacement Bus Service?
 

LE Greys

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The people along the HS2 route would gain no benefit if the rail line was built, so why doesn't the Govt add some relatively cheap sweeteners to win support of the people along the line such as:
  • For Brackley - reopen the Calvet - Brackley Central part of the line, to allow Aylesbury/Marylebone services to be extended. You are already building a railway on embankments/viaducts. Thus such a re-opening would cost a minimal amount if done in conjuction with the building of HS2.
  • For Aylesbury Vale/Chilterns - reopen the Varsity line. Admittedly, this would cost more than the Brackley Central reopening so maybe this could be partially funded by local TOC (Chiltern). As there will be a connection from HS2 to the Aylesbury line at Calvert, due to the planned HS2 depot, you could, if feasible, run about 3-5 services a day from Marylebone to The North via Aylesbury and HS2, thus giving Aylesbury Vale direct benefit from the line.
  • For Warwickshire/Coventry - reopen Kenilworth station, and fund line improvements to the Coventry - Leamington and Coventry - Nuneaton lines to allow a better local services. Of course, as HS2 relieves the WCML, there ought to be space for more services between Coventry and Birmingham as well as Coventry and London.

That's the kind of thinking we need. Would it have been harder to sell HS1 (or the CTRL as it was) if it had not been for the Javelin service? That's not perfect, and perhaps not an ideal use of a 186 mph railway, but it does get the locals on side.
 

class26

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1,199
Surely the entire point is that the WCML is FULL NOW !!!! HS2 is not just about going faster , its about new capacity which just happens to be faster than before !

Why not upgrade the entire WCML to 125mph? Where possible 140mph running should be enabled.

I have worked out the timings for my proposal and will post later.

It's not much slower, no houses are destroyed and the current green belt remains. Only the infrastructure remains to be improved- the 390s can handle the speeds and we can order more! Tag on an order for the WR as well which will bring the costs down- as well as lengthening the current ones that are to remain nine cars. I know people on here have their opinions on the 390s, but passengers seem to like them and their reliability. Look on the brightside we don't end up with IEP! We can keep the 57s to operate services that won't be ran on electrified lines.

Upgrading the current WCML is far more beneficial to the country, especially at Birmingham where services from places like Cheltenham could interchange with our lovely new upgraded WCML at lovely new New Street! Manchester, Liverpool, Preston would all have interchange opportunities too. Rather than HS2 interchanging at Manc, Leeds and Glasgow (reaching these places eventually!) New signalling would enable a higher capacity (not clues up on it, but surely it can be done?)

Apart from Leeds, the same places (and more) are reached as HS2 would. The French managed to upgrade existing infrastructure, we can do the same. The WCML is only the start, the ECML, GWML and MML can all be done! (The latter two after having some of Grannies knitting strung up!)

Just so you know that idea is intellectual property of mine, so don't go emailing Phillip Hammond! ;)
 

Zoe

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5,905
Surely the entire point is that the WCML is FULL NOW !!!! HS2 is not just about going faster , its about new capacity which just happens to be faster than before !
Then why not build on a less environmentally destructive route. Why do trains from London to Leeds have to go via Birmingham?
 

LE Greys

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If economies are being looked for then HS2 must be high on the list but the capacity problem of the WCML needs to be addressed somehow. This is my Plan B and I reckon it could be delivered for half the cost of HS2 but give much the same output if you overlook the excessive provision for BHM in HS2's shuttle proposals. It was written in reply to an article published elsewhere and I haven't the time to rewrite so bear with it's obtuseness if you will.

Is it High Speed Madness?

I disagree with HS2. We need a more integrated transport system. The cost and tribulations of getting about in this country are discouraging. The scheme is projected to be far too expensive. It doesn’t integrate properly with Europe and not very well with the existing Victorian system either. It’s almost a stand-alone vanity project for London-centric politicians.

Essentially, it would merely six-track the WCML for relief of forecast capacity constraints but by putting the extra two tracks on an entirely different alignment. There is no need to build a separate line for that. In an overall journey context, the time savings proffered would be neither here nor there. Until we decide that we want to be integrated with Europe, I think we should hold back until there is a positive vote. We then build a line that is a true extension of the European High Speed network. HS2 Ltd’s belated attempt at integration includes an enormously expensive and inadequate single track, all tunnel, connection between Old Oak Common and the North London Line near St. Pancras that will constrain capacity for evermore.

Also, if there is still no serious intention of sending North of London services through to the Continent, then there is no need at all for a ‘captive fleet’ to GB+ gauge. They will just be Birmingham shuttles. Why have two incompatible fleets when you don’t need the difference? The line might need to be built to GB+ gauge though, for future proofing.

So why not do what’s actually needed? Six tracking the WCML to Roade with four tracking to Birmingham and Trent Valley does the job. It doesn’t give quite the same bums on seats to Birmingham but it does give the paths required on the WCML. It is more integrated than HS2, obviates having two different fleets initially and costs considerably less. The alignment could allow 140mph running, with or without tilt and ERTMS, resulting in the bonus of HS2’s Time Savings without the cost!

So, what follows here is not HS2 but it includes a proper connection to HS1. And that would have to be operated by the short formed type 373s that were, long ago, intended for the job. This route compares favourably with the demolition and disruption of HS2’s proposed Ruislip route. By operating more slowly, it meets some of the green objections over emissions and there’s no need at all for an OOC station. It doesn’t require the relocation of a tube line or reconstruction of railway junctions. Euston station does not have to be re-built. More platforms can be fitted in without wholesale demolition. All but two are already long enough for eleven car Pendolinos. The centre two can be extended to fit 9-cars. Twenty platforms can be had without much knocking about. Overground will have to go underground sooner or later and that will be a serious cost. A box to one side will take it like Thameslink, with southward extension possibilities; Euston is a constraint on this scheme and westward extension may be required for more platforms in future. But it doesn’t need to go 2m deeper and take over the whole district as HS2 proposes. It doesn’t need 400m platforms for twenty-car trains. European services could go directly to St. Pancras or Stratford.

This line would exit Euston and branch left on Camden Bank, tunnelling under Primrose Hill itself, further south than HS2’s proposal, and emerging west of Willesden where there are possible sites. Then land-take, compulsory purchase and demolish up the east side to Watford. It’s quite possible. There is a bit spare on that side much of the way. Although the amount of demolition isn’t exactly light, it’s less than HS2’s Ruislip route. Construct a flyover or tunnel at Watford and then burrow under the two existing tunnels and cross over to the west side. Emerging north, the line doesn’t have to follow slavishly the existing WCML. Constraints around Kings Langley, Berkhamsted, et al can be circumvented by using HS2’s route 4 (the blue one), roughly following the A41. The rejoin would be north of Tring with a dodge through or under Leighton Buzzard. If that is not viable, rejoin at Bletchley or Milton Keynes. I don’t suppose the original straight-through route at Wolverton is available, so a dive-under might be required. Double deck the track at Roade or strike out to the west. Continue four-tracking towards Rugby. Again, a completely separate alignment might be better here and, rather than compete for space at Rugby, by-pass the town to the south, then Coventry Parkway, rejoin south of Birmingham Int’l and approaching New Street, branch on a chord into an enlarged Snow Hill by a new curved tunnel.

It might be better to use Moor Street as the terminus for Chiltern Railways and Snow Hill for this line since there is enough space for 400m platforms if ever required and obvious northward extension possibilities. I’m not too familiar with this neck of the woods but Handsworth, Tame Bridge and the M6 one side or other to Stafford looks a viable route.

If the Euston to Willesden tunnel was built as Phase 1, then it could carry the slow lines into Euston temporarily while the existing slows via Primrose Hill tunnels were enlarged and bored out to GB+ gauge thus giving a proper twin track connection to HS1 via the surface NLL at a fraction of the cost of HS2’s proposal, the enormously expensive choice and serious constraint of a lengthy single track tunnel; an option which would forever limit through European operations.

In a way, HS1 shows the way it can be done and it only cost £6 billion for roughly the same distance. This cost included the lengthy London tunnels. It’s quite a civilised railway to live with! Yes, I know this is digging up the WCML again but think of the savings to be spent digging up the network elsewhere! This scheme meets the capacity requirement and also gives a breathing space to decide if we want to be properly integrated with Europe. I don’t see it costing anything like £17 billion but it provides similar infrastructure without the excess. The ‘captive fleet’ could come later and, when it does, apart from just providng a London-Brum shuttle, it could also do direct services to Europe.

Why does this sort of scheme not figure in the options? It seems we are frightened of a repeat of the WCML Modernisation fiasco and think a completely fresh line is the answer. The Modernisation was, at one time, projected to cost £13 billion but cut back to £9 billion by omitting deliverables and enhancements. 140 mph running and in-cab signalling went together with infrastructure that was deferred. It took the best part of ten years to execute; significant disruption to pax and compensation payable to the Train Op Cos. Building a new line alongside the existing one is not the same as re-building an operating and active railway although integration at certain points would be part of the scheme.

If the vote for Europe is yes, then we build HS2 proper. It could be realigned centrally up the country to give better advantage to more people and have a through station in London instead of another dead-end terminal. HS2 should be conceived as part of the European network, don’t you think?

I have a feeling we're going to end up having to do this anyway in about 40 years, because HS2 will run out of space. The southward extension of overground might involve a connection (somehow) to the Moorgate section of Thameslink. HS2 to Europe does seem to be a bit of an afterthought, but at least that's going to be rectified.

My HS3 idea (follow-up rather than alternative) started out as Greengauge 21's High Speed East proposal. It runs from Stratford, follows a combination of the Central Line, the M11 and the WAML to Stansted Airport (station 1), swings around the side, goes through Cambridge (collector station), tracks the St Ives line to Huntingdon, then Peterborough (collector station, some trains join from King's Cross) then a combination of the A1 and ECML, switching between the two on a regular basis, with "slip roads" at either end of Grantham, Newark, Retford and Doncaster, then rejoins the classic lines at Colton Junction. It restarts at Poppleton Junction, then follows a combination of ECML, A1 and Leamside Line (to avoid Durham and Chester-le-Street) until rejoining at Tyne Yard, with more "slip roads" at Darlington and Ferryhill. It then restarts again at Benton, sheers off inland, and eventually ends up at Newcraighall (exact route currently uncertain, but crosses the border near Coldstream) before rejoining for the last time at Portobello Junction. The link sections would be upgraded to cope with the extra traffic, and trains would run on and off the line to call at other stations if need be. Not sure if it's entirely workable, but I reckon Edinburgh in three hours with stops at York and Newcastle.
 

Nonsense

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2009
Messages
293
I can forsee the Consultation results....

1000 replies from Business broadly in favour
250 replies from organisations and rail industry in favour
150 replies from local groups, MP's and councils it passes through against
5000 replies from the general public in favour
380000 replies from the general public against

If 380000 people object, how many million does that leave that don't object? And of the 380000 prepared to sign a petition waved in front of their face on the high street, how many would feel passionate enough to spend their own time lodging a formal objection?

Unless there is some glaring technical error that makes the current route less attractive than one not yet considered, there is no viable objection. Ask any commuter how many times they cross a railway and they would struggle to tell you because they just blend in.

Consider the Lune Gorge and the WCML that snakes through it. There is simply nothing on the scale of that breathtaking natural awesomeness in the Chilterns but has anyone, even in jest, suggested that the railway spoils it? Langdondale, not on the scale of the Lune Gorge but beautiful nonetheless, and yet most campaigns through that particular beauty spot are for a railway to be reopened!

Its widely accepted that mass railway closures of the 60/70s was a mistake. The country could do with more railways. So why is HS2 bad? It connects the UK's two principle cities at the modern international standard and relieves an oversubscribed parallel route. Some people will have to move, thats unfortunate, but no one is suggesting that they relocate to one of the council's sink estates where they might find some real problems to worry about. 'Quality of life' and 'ruined' really are extremely subjective concepts.

This is knee jerk Nimbyism and its a disgrace. The shame of it.
 

tbtc

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Then why not build on a less environmentally destructive route. Why do trains from London to Leeds have to go via Birmingham?

It'd be more destructive to build one line from London to Birmingham and another from London to Leeds though. At least putting *all* longer distance fast trains through one new line avoids the disruption of building several ones. Plus its still faster to go London - Birmingham - Leeds on HS2 than the existing ECML to Leeds.

Getting back to the OP's point though, I really can't see any equivalent spending on rail if the money doesn't go to HS2. We all have our ways of spending the money instead, and I have my own ideas, but if we don't build HS2 then the Government (red or blue) isn't going to just hand the money over to make a few upgrades to existing lines, politics doesn't work like that.
 

Zoe

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It'd be more destructive to build one line from London to Birmingham and another from London to Leeds though.
Does Birmingham really need a high speed line to London? The current 1 hour 24 minute journey time isn't bad.
 

tbtc

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Does Birmingham really need a high speed line to London? The current 1 hour 24 minutes journey time isn't bad.

Would you design your fast link to the channel tunnel railway line (which is one aspect of what HS2 is, after all) without serving the second biggest city in the UK?
 

Zoe

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Would you design your fast link to the channel tunnel railway line (which is one aspect of what HS2 is, after all) without serving the second biggest city in the UK?
I doubt there would be more than 2 tph direct to mainland Europe from Birmingham. You could also build a High Speed line to the North via the former GCR corridor (a more direcr route than going via Birmingham) with a branch from the Rugby area to Birmingham so international trains from HS1 to Birmingham can take advantage of this.
 

LE Greys

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Would you design your fast link to the channel tunnel railway line (which is one aspect of what HS2 is, after all) without serving the second biggest city in the UK?

In my case, yes. I'd be more concerned with a series of cities that still rely on a 110 mph diesel line (the MML) and the capitals of Scotland and Wales in roughly that order. Birmingham would eventually be a part of HS5, planned for around 2040.

The list goes
  1. Rugby, Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield
  2. Manchester, Leeds, Bradford
  3. Preston, Liverpool (sort of)
  4. York, Darlington Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow
  5. Carlisle, Glasgow (shorter)
  6. Heathrow, Reading, Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea
  7. Exeter, Plymouth
  8. Birmingham, Crewe, Liverpool (shorter)
  9. Stansted, Cambridge, Peterborough, Doncaster

Temporarily, Birmingham would have two or three extra services from London each hour (spare capacity because of some WCML expresses diverting down the GCR) and ideally a four-track line from Rugby. They get limited capacity relief for now, but have to go to the back of the queue for a high-speed line. They've had their turn and can't jump straight back to the front again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh yes, and a two-hourly Regional Eurostar to Birmingham and Manchester starting June 2012.
 

tbtc

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In my case, yes. I'd be more concerned with a series of cities that still rely on a 110 mph diesel line (the MML) and the capitals of Scotland and Wales in roughly that order. Birmingham would eventually be a part of HS5, planned for around 2040.

The list goes
  1. Rugby, Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield
  2. Manchester, Leeds, Bradford
  3. Preston, Liverpool (sort of)
  4. York, Darlington Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow
  5. Carlisle, Glasgow (shorter)
  6. Heathrow, Reading, Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea
  7. Exeter, Plymouth
  8. Birmingham, Crewe, Liverpool (shorter)
  9. Stansted, Cambridge, Peterborough, Doncaster

Temporarily, Birmingham would have two or three extra services from London each hour (spare capacity because of some WCML expresses diverting down the GCR) and ideally a four-track line from Rugby. They get limited capacity relief for now, but have to go to the back of the queue for a high-speed line. They've had their turn and can't jump straight back to the front again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh yes, and a two-hourly Regional Eurostar to Birmingham and Manchester starting June 2012.

How can I argue with anyone who wants faster electric trains to Sheffield as a priority? :lol:
 
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