HS2-HS1 on foot

[MattRat]

A lot of useful ideas further up in this thread would not cost anywhere near tens of millions of pounds.

I'm also wary of your comment that you can't provide figures as they're not in the public domain, that smacks of wanting to hide something. A bland comment that nearly all of the people making the transfer are able to walk, says nothing useful other than to perpetuate this secrecy, and it also fails to recognise the value of people who ARE able to walk, just wanting to do so with greater confidence about their route, and to feel a bit more looked after and welcome during their journey.

It also ignores how many more people would make the journey if the connection was better. Right now, those people probably fly. I'd link the person you are responding to as well, but I have a feeling their mind is already made up, and all I can do is leave comments like this for the more open minded.

 

[AndyMike]

It also ignores how many more people would make the journey if the connection was better. Right now, those people probably fly. I'd link the person you are responding to as well, but I have a feeling their mind is already made up, and all I can do is leave comments like this for the more open minded.

Again, I’m left with the feeling of a widespread attitude that doing the bare minimum for passengers is fine, and that there’s no point doing anything to make rail travel more attractive.

 

[MattRat]

Again, I’m left with the feeling of a widespread attitude that doing the bare minimum for passengers is fine, and that there’s no point doing anything to make rail travel more attractive.

Doubly depressing since this is supposed to the place to advocate for rail. Why are people here if they obviously prefer other transport? Then again, as someone who wants our railway to be the best it can be, I can't help but hope it becomes that, despite the opposition.

 

[edwin_m]

Most of what we did in Local Authority (Traffic Management) was in publicly available reports, and if the public weren't happy with that, they could request further information via the FOI act. So no, we didn't tend to hide things.

Would that be so even if you were looking at early options for a project, where some of those options would significantly disadvantage some members of the public, such as putting a concrete flyover outside their bedroom windows? Details of early stage projects tend to be kept very confidential for that sort of reason - not really suppressing democracy but avoiding needless upset to people and potential compensation claims when most (or all!) of the options considered would never be built anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

It also ignores how many more people would make the journey if the connection was better. Right now, those people probably fly. I'd link the person you are responding to as well, but I have a feeling their mind is already made up, and all I can do is leave comments like this for the more open minded.

Again, I’m left with the feeling of a widespread attitude that doing the bare minimum for passengers is fine, and that there’s no point doing anything to make rail travel more attractive.

I think these might be directed at me.

two things:

1) it doesn’t ignore the people who would make the journey if the connection was better. Even if every single person who flies from Birmingham, East Mids, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh to Paris or Brussels decided to use the train instead, it would amount to about 3 extra people a minute each way between Euston and St Pancras in service hours. This is based on Pre covid passenger numbers. And I’m sorry, but changing what will be a well signed, reasonably pleasant 10 minute amble between the two stations into a moving walkway or people mover isn’t going to convince very many of the fliers to suddenly take the train, even if HS2 worked at light speed and was free.

2) as I have explained - evidently not very well - this specific issue has been looked at. Many solutions (some of which are upthread) are simply not practical - mostly on a social economic basis, but sometimes because of the laws of physics. This is not about not being ‘open minded’, it is simply explaining how these things work in the real world with real survey data and an understanding of what challenges need to be overcome.


I’ll ask again, what practical solutions are there?

 

[BrianW]

Doubly depressing since this is supposed to the place to advocate for rail. Why are people here if they obviously prefer other transport? Then again, as someone who wants our railway to be the best it can be, I can't help but hope it becomes that, despite the opposition.

What is rail for? Why and where is it 'the answer', let alone 'obviously'. To 'succeed' one must IMHO (however sadly) understand the 'opposition'. Necessity; desirability; proportionality; value for money; affordability; practicality; either/ or; both/ and; do nothing/ 'other'... we all value and assess them differently.

Personally I would like more affordable housing; I live in the Chilterns ...

 

[XAM2175]

I'm in this because I like the idea of advancing rail projects, I'm not in it for playing games.

That's funny - it was only about a month ago that you posted:
"Many of the responders on these pages don’t seem to realise that I do understand a lot more than I sometimes let on, I’m just interested to see how people respond."

 

[Shrop]

That's funny - it was only about a month ago that you posted:
"Many of the responders on these pages don’t seem to realise that I do understand a lot more than I sometimes let on, I’m just interested to see how people respond."

Context. Seeking constructive responses. Not games just to be negative. You've previously made some good points on here and made them well. We should be on the same side seeking improvements ...

 

[WideRanger]

I don't know @Bald Rick personally. But everything I have seen about his postings on this forum for the time I have been on it has convinced me that 1) he absolutely is committed to improving public transport in a sustainable way, 2) that he makes the quality of discussions on these threads far more productive because he has insights (both in terms of understanding and insider knowledge), and 3) when he says he can't say things, it is not because he is being difficult or running away from an argument, but because he doesn't want to get fired or break the law. The fact that he is sharing his insights with us, should be valued, not dismissed, or subject to implications about his agenda.

I am sure we all have moments of disappointment when we get a dose of reality (I'm still smarting from having the flaws in my class 156 sleeper idea pointed out ). And I'm sure there will be occasions when he is wrong (and I have seen him say such several times over the years). But, I for one would hate to see him disengage from these forums due to people viewing him as being on 'the other side'.

 

[quantinghome]

Cable cars can be useful if properly thought out. Minimal footprint at street level and seeing increasing use.

London reconnections had an article on them not long ago: The Incredible Lightness of Being - Cable Cars, A Legitimate Urban Transport Mode - London Reconnections

LR gave the following criteria for a cable car being 'actually useful' rather than gimmick:

1. connects two or more actual neighbourhoods or business districts, and
2. has a station at a well used public transport station or stop, and
3. the cable car is fare integrated with a city’s transit system,

Connecting Euston and St. Pancras stations would appear to satisfy all three.

 

[zwk500]

I don't know @Bald Rick personally. But everything I have seen about his postings on this forum for the time I have been on it has convinced me that 1) he absolutely is committed to improving public transport in a sustainable way, 2) that he makes the quality of discussions on these threads far more productive because he has insights (both in terms of understanding and insider knowledge), and 3) when he says he can't say things, it is not because he is being difficult or running away from an argument, but because he doesn't want to get fired or break the law. The fact that he is sharing his insights with us, should be valued, not dismissed, or subject to implications about his agenda.

I am sure we all have moments of disappointment when we get a dose of reality (I'm still smarting from having the flaws in my class 156 sleeper idea pointed out ). And I'm sure there will be occasions when he is wrong (and I have seen him say such several times over the years). But, I for one would hate to see him disengage from these forums due to people viewing him as being on 'the other side'.

+1 on this.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem here does seem to be one of perception. Those who make the journey between St Pancras and Euston recognising that it is straightforward and those who don't thinking it is complex.

It has been established here that there is no easy way of bulldozing a route through the buildings between the stations yet it is too close for any new transport link.

How does the Railway promote the ease of the connection between Euston and St Pancras to passengers who don't travel frequently?

Connecting Euston and St. Pancras stations would appear to satisfy all three.

Is there a criteria about the time taken to queue up, board, achieve elevation and get back down again. Presumably it would attract an additional fare?

I am fortunate that if necessary I can scamper from St Pancras to Euston in three minutes. I can walk it in five. Now, in 20 years, that might no longer be possible for me but it will be possible for others, and I will have to look at other options. That is a fact of life. The demand just isn't there to justify spending a whole amount of money on a mechanised connection between the two locations because it would be far better spent elsewhere.

Typically I make the journey between St Pancras and Euston on foot because there is a small monetary advantage of not using the underground (and changing at Farringdon / Euston Square) but maybe I wouldn't value that monetary advantage in the same way in the future.

 

[Shrop]

I don't know @Bald Rick personally. But everything I have seen about his postings on this forum for the time I have been on it has convinced me that 1) he absolutely is committed to improving public transport in a sustainable way, 2) that he makes the quality of discussions on these threads far more productive because he has insights (both in terms of understanding and insider knowledge), and 3) when he says he can't say things, it is not because he is being difficult or running away from an argument, but because he doesn't want to get fired or break the law. The fact that he is sharing his insights with us, should be valued, not dismissed, or subject to implications about his agenda.

I am sure we all have moments of disappointment when we get a dose of reality (I'm still smarting from having the flaws in my class 156 sleeper idea pointed out ). And I'm sure there will be occasions when he is wrong (and I have seen him say such several times over the years). But, I for one would hate to see him disengage from these forums due to people viewing him as being on 'the other

I'm sure you're right and I wouldn't argue. Just that as a recipient of a fair few of his contradictions, he does sometimes have a funny way of showing how on-side he is about encouraging people on to the railways.

 

[HSTEd]

Can't help but feel we will rue the construction of the British Library on that site.

Otherwise we could have put HS2 into the King's Cross St Pancras complex, and shortened the distance between Euston and that complex.

 

[JonathanH]

Can't help but feel we will rue the construction of the British Library on that site.

Otherwise we could have put HS2 into the King's Cross St Pancras complex, and shortened the distance between Euston and that complex.

I dont think that is true (although I recognise the principle of having the stations adjacent). The site of the British Library and the Francis Crick institute is quite constrained (for a station with ten 400m platforms) and there is housing to the north on the former trackbed. It certainly isn't as big as the land available for the station and approaches at Euston. To one side is St Pancras and to the other is the listed Ossulston Estate.

 

[30907]

Cable cars can be useful if properly thought out. Minimal footprint at street level and seeing increasing use.

London reconnections had an article on them not long ago: The Incredible Lightness of Being - Cable Cars, A Legitimate Urban Transport Mode - London Reconnections

LR gave the following criteria for a cable car being 'actually useful' rather than gimmick:

1. connects two or more actual neighbourhoods or business districts, and
2. has a station at a well used public transport station or stop, and
3. the cable car is fare integrated with a city’s transit system,

Connecting Euston and St. Pancras stations would appear to satisfy all three.

So it wouldn't work as a tourist gimmick - but that doesn't say whether it would work at all. Reading the article (interesting, BTW), most urban cable cars exist because they eliminate an obstacle to ground level travel.

Another - relevant - quote from the article:

Note that the only central Paris cableway link evaluated is between Gare de Lyon and Gare d’Austerlitz across the Seine, replacing a 900m walk (with no direct Métro connection) with a scenic and relaxing 500m téléphérique link for beluggaged passenger. Perhaps something for London to consider? However this intermodal Parisien railway station link was considered too expensive for what would for most travellers be a healthy walk.

Typically I make the journey between St Pancras and Euston on foot because there is a small monetary advantage of not using the underground (and changing at Farringdon / Euston Square) but maybe I wouldn't value that monetary advantage in the same way in the future.

Until the age of 66 I would occasionally do that transfer - even having free travel (bus pass/cross London ticket) I wouldn't bother with public transport. If I were no longer fit, or had more baggage than is sensible, I still wouldn't.

However, a golf buggy with canopy (self-driving, if Mr Wolmar isn't watching?) would be efficient, and could share the back route at 4mph - more efficient and environmentally friendly than a taxi, if a fraction slower.

 

[HSTEd]

I dont think that is true (although I recognise the principle of having the stations adjacent). The site of the British Library and the Francis Crick institute is quite constrained (for a station with ten 400m platforms) and there is housing to the north on the former trackbed. It certainly isn't as big as the land available for the station and approaches at Euston. To one side is St Pancras and to the other is the listed Ossulston Estate.

My understanding is the FCI only moved in relatively recently - if we were holding the British Library for station redevelopment I rather doubt that would have happened!

I would assume a station built there would be in a relatively deep box and would go into tunnel almost from the platform ends.

 

[JonathanH]

However, a golf buggy with canopy (self-driving, if Mr Wolmar isn't watching?) would be efficient, and could share the back route at 4mph - more efficient and environmentally friendly than a taxi, if a fraction slower.

Yes, exactly as already happens at major stations.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can't help but feel we will rue the construction of the British Library on that site.

Otherwise we could have put HS2 into the King's Cross St Pancras complex, and shortened the distance between Euston and that complex.

I think you’re right. Had someone decided by 1978 that 40 years into the future there would be a need for a construction site for 10 or so new long distance platforms on the Euston Road, it is the ideal site. As has been said it would need residential land north of the FCI, and would need to be below ground level. And then this whole thread would have been about how people can get from ’old’ Euston to the new complex, noting that far more domestic passengers make the trip than international.

It would also present an interesting challenge about through trains from HS1 to HS2. The vertical separation from St Pancras HS1 platforms to the (imaginary) adjacent HS2 platforms would be around 10 metres or so. Not easy to get trains from one to the other With gradients etc. 400m train lift anyone?

 

[MarkyT]

400m train lift anyone?

You might be on to something there! Reminds me of the wagon lift in early days at St Pancras, for accessing the goods facilities beneath.

 

[HSTEd]

I think you’re right. Had someone decided by 1978 that 40 years into the future there would be a need for a construction site for 10 or so new long distance platforms on the Euston Road, it is the ideal site.

Was it really that early?

My understanding was the library building only opened in the late 90s?

Did it really take that long to build?

 

[Bald Rick]

Was it really that early?

My understanding was the library building only opened in the late 90s?

Did it really take that long to build?

it was one of the classic 70s/80s horribly late, horribly overbudget jobs.

Decision was taken to build it in 1978, but it was in planning before that. The library bought the land in 1976.

 

[MattRat]

it was one of the classic 70s/80s horribly late, horribly overbudget jobs.

Decision was taken to build it in 1978, but it was in planning before that. The library bought the land in 1976.

I don't think it's a 70s/80s thing, I think it's just a British thing.

 

[HSTEd]

it was one of the classic 70s/80s horribly late, horribly overbudget jobs.

As opposed to the modern era, where they just inflate the timescale and budget enormously before the work begins!

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think it's a 70s/80s thing, I think it's just a British thing.

It really isn’t.

it happens all over the world, and Britain is no different. Big projects are more susceptible because of integration risks.

 

[MattRat]

It really isn’t.

it happens all over the world, and Britain is no different. Big projects are more susceptible because of integration risks.

And yet Japan and China don't have the same issues....

 

[Bald Rick]

And yet Japan and China don't have the same issues....

oh they do.

the Seikan tunnel was 12 times over budget, to pick one example.

And As you can imagine, the Chinese state controlled media doesn’t put out stories saying how the Chinese state controlled railway has gone over budget / over time on a Chinese State funded project.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I wonder how much of this is any business of the railways ?. I mean this is more about integrated travel policy so have town planners etc been involved. I guess the question is - where does the money come from to potentially improve this ?.

I reckon a few golf buggies would suffice for those less able to walk or if it was raining along with some strategically placed dropped kerbs.

See below.

Sometimes doing little or nothing is the right answer. Plenty of examples of that.

In this case there is certainly no reason to do something that will costs tens of millions of pounds.


The answers are not in the public domain, so I’m not at liberty to say.

What I will say is to repeat what I wrote above, that the number of people doing the transfer who are able to walk is nearly all of them, and that is not expected to change post HS2. The absolute number of people expected to travel between Euston and St Pancras / Kings Cross stations will increase proportionally less than the increase in users at Euston triggered by HS2.

And finally, the number of people making the connection between HS2 and HS1 will only be a small proportion of those travelling between Euston and St Pancras / Kings Cross.

It occurs to me that someone who cannot walk from Euston to StPancras would already struggle to walk the length of a train platform. Currently there are electric buggies provided at many stations to cater for mobility impaired people. Perhaps the vehicles at Kings cross and Euston should be allowed to stray between the two stations ?. As you say - it is not many people. Plus judging by the number I see using said transport within Euston and Kings Cross it seems to be true.

Could a proportion of the route East - West be covered ?. Just where possible.

I think the biggest improvement would be an East side entrance to Euston that had an overhead walkway across the platforms of Euston and Euston HS2. Granted the concourse of Euston it not that far from the newish East-West route as it is fairly distant from the dreaded Euston road !. I have no idea of the exact location of the HS2 concourse in relation to the Euston Road btw ?.

I don't know @Bald Rick personally. But everything I have seen about his postings on this forum for the time I have been on it has convinced me that 1) he absolutely is committed to improving public transport in a sustainable way, 2) that he makes the quality of discussions on these threads far more productive because he has insights (both in terms of understanding and insider knowledge), and 3) when he says he can't say things, it is not because he is being difficult or running away from an argument, but because he doesn't want to get fired or break the law. The fact that he is sharing his insights with us, should be valued, not dismissed, or subject to implications about his agenda.

I am sure we all have moments of disappointment when we get a dose of reality (I'm still smarting from having the flaws in my class 156 sleeper idea pointed out ). And I'm sure there will be occasions when he is wrong (and I have seen him say such several times over the years). But, I for one would hate to see him disengage from these forums due to people viewing him as being on 'the other side'.

I too do not know @Bald Rick. But it is obvious from his posts that he knows a lot about railway projects and takes the trouble to contribute.

I'm sure you're right and I wouldn't argue. Just that as a recipient of a fair few of his contradictions, he does sometimes have a funny way of showing how on-side he is about encouraging people on to the railways.

That is the trouble with reality it can be disappointing. The railways have never been rolling in money (even less so under the cloud of Covid) so what money there is has to be spent to the benefit of the maximum number of existing users and potential users. There do seem to be a lot of practical problems with a solid link between these two tantalisingly close stations.

Can't help but feel we will rue the construction of the British Library on that site.

Otherwise we could have put HS2 into the King's Cross St Pancras complex, and shortened the distance between Euston and that complex.

I was thinking that - it was railway land originally. But then lets just be thankful St Pancras itself was not demolished - it nearly was.

oh they do.

the Seikan tunnel was 12 times over budget, to pick one example.

And As you can imagine, the Chinese state controlled media doesn’t put out stories saying how the Chinese state controlled railway has gone over budget / over time on a Chinese State funded project.

Quite so. And I am VERY sure they would not let a few buildings that are (should be) listed get in the way of their plans !.

 

[BrianW]

It really isn’t.

it happens all over the world, and Britain is no different. Big projects are more susceptible because of integration risks.

Broadly speaking, the bigger the project and the longer its planning (and execution) the greater the likelihood of changes'- eg in government/ priorities. Better to stop/ change/ carry on?
eg- in no particular order- Waterloo International, Westminster Jubilee line, Aldwych tube, Highgate Heights, Moorgate, Manchester Picc-Vic, Ordsall Chord, M25 around Watford, Heathrow runways and terminals ...

Golf buggies nice low cost, esp vs Emirates Air line.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Broadly speaking, the bigger the project and the longer its planning (and execution) the greater the likelihood of changes'- eg in government/ priorities. Better to stop/ change/ carry on?
eg- in no particular order- Waterloo International, Westminster Jubilee line, Aldwych tube, Highgate Heights, Moorgate, Manchester Picc-Vic, Ordsall Chord, M25 around Watford, Heathrow runways and terminals ...

Golf buggies nice low cost, esp vs Emirates Air line.

I recently noticed the Northern most lanes of the Eastbound Euston road towards StPancras are cordoned off. Perhaps there is room for a wider pavement and/or buggies !.