HS2 Compulsory Reservations

[TheGrew]

As mentioned above I see no problem with this because the time between stops is fairly long. However I can imagine problems where people expect a more walk-up service. I imagine people would be a bit miffed being unable to board service at Manchester Piccadilly to say Stockport without a reservation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As mentioned above I see no problem with this because the time between stops is fairly long. However I can imagine problems where people expect a more walk-up service. I imagine people would be a bit miffed being unable to board service at Manchester Piccadilly to say Stockport without a reservation.

If we see sense and build HS2 2B at some point, which is really essential to this making any sense, the removal of 2 of the 3 London ICs from the WCML would allow for a more frequent regional service that would fulfil that need.

 

[A S Leib]

I wonder how much of forcing mandatory reservations is trying to manage passenger capacity at stations; there's less need to turn up half an hour early if everybody knows they can get a seat.

 

[m_m]

The compulsory seat thing just doesn't work imo. Was lucky enough to be in Venice not so long ago and thousands of people were stuck due to weather causing transport problems. No regional services running. Our high speed train was cancelled. Asked if we can get on the next one. No. We need to have a booked seat. Go to ticket office. Machines turned off due to mass cancellations. Queued for 40 mins. Got seat transferred for service that MIGHT run. That didn't run. Repeat above process. Eventually get a train that runs.

As we are getting on the train several people asked the train manager if they could get on as their service had just been cancelled. He said no, your ticket isn't for this service. Left them behind. Train leaves with literally hundreds of empty seats. All services were point to point, so no intermediate stops to worry about. I guess those people went to queue for 40 mins whilst trains they could have been on left.

Never mind the broader issue that people should be allowed spontaneity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how much of forcing mandatory reservations is trying to manage passenger capacity at stations; there's less need to turn up half an hour early if everybody knows they can get a seat.

It would probably reduce the Euston scrum a bit if everyone knew they already had a seat and wouldn't need the faff of slinging anyone out of it. I have wondered if it's one reason Kings X isn't as bad.

But that aside, one reason is the dwells at Old Oak, it's been quoted from the start near enough.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's a long time before fares/reservation policy for HS2 will be decided - one for the next or next but one government.
Trenitalia are the current advisors to DfT on such matters, as part of the West Coast Partnership contract. How long that will last under GBR is anyone's guess.
Compared to TGV/Frecce, HS2 is just a short line so maybe not comparable in network terms, and most of its services will be on the classic WCML not an HSL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The compulsory seat thing just doesn't work imo. Was lucky enough to be in Venice not so long ago and thousands of people were stuck due to weather causing transport problems. No regional services running. Our high speed train was cancelled. Asked if we can get on the next one. No. We need to have a booked seat. Go to ticket office. Machines turned off due to mass cancellations. Queued for 40 mins. Got seat transferred for service that MIGHT run. That didn't run. Repeat above process. Eventually get a train that runs.

As we are getting on the train several people asked the train manager if they could get on as their service had just been cancelled. He said no, your ticket isn't for this service. Left them behind. Train leaves with literally hundreds of empty seats. All services were point to point, so no intermediate stops to worry about. I guess those people went to queue for 40 mins whilst trains they could have been on left.

Better IT can solve that, such as automatically rebooking people and notifying them of the new timings, with an invitation to change them again for free if they don't suit.

 

[fishwomp]

I feel like isn't this going to inevitable end up with someone saying "no you can't stand for 30 minutes on this train even though there's space, you have to stand for 2 hours on that crowded one instead"?

No, it's "you can't stand for 40 minutes on the train and get home", "you must stand on the station for 40 minutes waiting for a train that you can have a seat on".

I really don't get why the railway seems to think standing capacity isn't there to be used on future trains, but yet are super happy to accept it - and in true sardines style - on things like 4 car cross country services today.

Standing capacity is a good efficiency addition. In peak hours people are paying a premium to be stood up, just to get to where they want to be at the time they want to be there.. it's not like you are charged less for not sitting down!

 

[piers1234]

No, it's "you can't stand for 40 minutes on the train and get home", "you must stand on the station for 40 minutes waiting for a train that you can have a seat on".

I really don't get why the railway seems to think standing capacity isn't there to be used on future trains, but yet are super happy to accept it - and in true sardines style - on things like 4 car cross country services today.

Standing capacity is a good efficiency addition. In peak hours people are paying a premium to be stood up, just to get to where they want to be at the time they want to be there.. it's not like you are charged less for not sitting down!

I bet you, half of the seats had bags on them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I bet you, half of the seats had bags on them.

One advantage of reserved seating is that that will happen a lot less. "My seat is that seat, I'm required to sit there, shift it or I will" is a much stronger argument for it to be moved than "I'd like to sit there but I could sit over here instead".

 

[Taunton]

Makes it useless for business travel - when I go to a meeting in Birmingham I leave for the station when it's finished. The same as I do when I go there by car. Even then, the train I get depends on when the taxi to the station turns up, etc. As the service is pretty much Metro frequency, none of this matters.

It's notable that whenever it suits the railway, such as in their too-frequent disorganisations, all reservations are cancelled, or the train doesn't run. What then? This has become a regular feature of returning from Birmingham to Euston, ever since one of the multiple-per-hour services was through routed from Scotland, which have a significant tendency to turn up grossly late due to some issue far to the north.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2024 ==

I wonder how much of forcing mandatory reservations is trying to manage passenger capacity at stations; there's less need to turn up half an hour early if everybody knows they can get a seat.

No, the opposite. No reservations, on a frequent service you just get the next one. Compulsory reservations you turn up well before, as if you don't get there in time all your money is lost.

 

[Energy]

Hasn't it been found in the airline world that the fastest reasonable approach is no reservations?

In theory, compulsory reservations better distribute people across the train. However, I fear that in reality, people won't pay attention to reservations, and time will be wasted by people finding specific seats.

 

[HSTEd]

We will see how long running 200m trains with compulsory reservations to Manchester etc al survives contact with reality.

 

[JonathanH]

A State-subsidised and operated railway must have a strong bias towards public service and financial accessibility.

Ultimately a State-subsidised railway is deemed to have financial accountability to the Treasury as its primary bias.

Hasn't it been found in the airline world that the fastest reasonable approach is no reservations?

In theory, compulsory reservations better distribute people across the train. However, I fear that in reality, people won't pay attention to reservations, and time will be wasted by people finding specific seats.

Until selling reservations was noted to be a useful revenue source.

 

[HSTEd]

I wonder how much of forcing mandatory reservations is trying to manage passenger capacity at stations; there's less need to turn up half an hour early if everybody knows they can get a seat.

People turning up early is nothing to do with getting a seat.

It's because missing the train means your advance purchase ticket, the only affordable ticket, is worthless.

This is to do with HS2s vision of a "proper" railway, which they are clinging to even as it collapses around them.

See the obsession with 200m sets for another example. Or using sets with catering for journeys of an hour or less

 

[miami]

I wonder how much of forcing mandatory reservations is trying to manage passenger capacity at stations; there's less need to turn up half an hour early if everybody knows they can get a seat.

Opposite. You now need to turn up early as if you miss your train you're screwed.

 

[Palmerston]

Makes it useless for business travel - when I go to a meeting in Birmingham I leave for the station when it's finished. The same as I do when I go there by car. Even then, the train I get depends on when the taxi to the station turns up, etc. As the service is pretty much Metro frequency, none of this matters.

No, the opposite. No reservations, on a frequent service you just get the next one. Compulsory reservations you turn up well before, as if you don't get there in time all your money is lost.

I was thinking the same thing for anyone commuting. If you have a season ticket you turn up when you finish work.

I suppose if there was a simple app that you open at the station and tick 'reserve seat on next train' that should work. Probably bearable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ultimately a State-subsidised railway is deemed to have financial accountability to the Treasury as its primary bias

Though that accountability should be on the basis of cost-benefit and not simply cost.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2024 ==

I suppose if there was a simple app that you open at the station and tick 'reserve seat on next train' that should work. Probably bearable.

You can reserve seats on LNER's app/website up to 5 minutes before departure including a seat picker. If any flexible tickets at all have validity on HS2 (it's entirely possible they might not) I would expect an approach like this would be it.

 

[Energy]

Until selling reservations was noted to be a useful revenue source.

I'd support charging a small fee for reservations so those who get them do use them.

Since Avanti has become sort-of compulsory reservations I've ended up being forced into getting seat reservations I do not want. The Avanti automatic reservation (I'm aware they have a seat selector but I have to use the RSTL booking engine...) system isn't particularly intelligent and often gives me a reservation in one of the busier carriages.

I was thinking the same thing for anyone commuting. If you have a season ticket you turn up when you finish work.

I suppose if there was a simple app that you open at the station and tick 'reserve seat on next train' that should work. Probably bearable.

I guess, or it gets assigned when you go through a barrier. This seems like a lot of effort, particularly for the short shuttles to Birmingham.

 

[Taunton]

I'd support charging a small fee for reservations so those who get them do use them.

Since Avanti has become sort-of compulsory reservations I've ended up being forced into getting seat reservations I do not want. The Avanti automatic reservation (I'm aware they have a seat selector but I have to use the RSTL booking engine...) system isn't particularly intelligent and often gives me a reservation in one of the busier carriages.

SNCF certainly used to be like this, and just issued reservations for the next sequential number in the carriage, when it was full it just moved on to the next carriage.

There's no inherent reason why reservations have to cut off 5 minutes before scheduled departure, either. Only a couple of weeks ago I wrote here how at Paddington I boarded a service to Cardiff 20 minutes after departure time, as it was still sat there waiting for a driver. It was particularly useful as I had turned up early for the next departure to Cardiff an hour later ... which was cancelled.

And am I going to be prevented from getting in the 1800 from Kings Cross to Leeds in the last few minutes because it is full - with passengers where half the train get off at Stevenage. I have to stand for the first 20 minutes. So what? I've just had to stand arriving on the Liz Line for 20 minutes, in a train where the description of it makes a VIRTUE of having so much standing space. Inter-City ambience? The reason why that Kings Cross departure is full is all these local commuters to Stevenage, it used to be pick up only there, but it was in the operator's financial interest to make it an open stop to scoop the commuter revenue from the local TOC. So much for caring about Inter-City ambience.

 

[Mainline421]

It seems to work for Eurostar...............

This board is utterly conservative. Anything new must be defeated because it has not been done that way

For the business yes, but Eurostar would far more useful and convenient for passengers if they operated more like a railway.

I wouldn't call my attitude conservative, ideally for me HS2 would use contactless for fare payments, it's shorter than many tube journeys. But I will always oppose issuing artificial barriers to rail travel and not treating it like the essential service it is supposed to be.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

And that means what?

Are you seriously suggesting having to cross a border is comparable in a turn-up-and-go experience to going between two internal cities? Have you considered stand up?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

No, it's "you can't stand for 40 minutes on the train and get home", "you must stand on the station for 40 minutes waiting for a train that you can have a seat on".

I was more thinking along the lines of "all the HS2 seats are booked, go stand on the LNWR train"

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I wouldn't call my attitude conservative, ideally for me HS2 would use contactless for fare payments, it's shorter than many tube journeys. But I will always oppose issuing artificial barriers to rail travel and not treating it like the essential service it is supposed to be.

Could not agree more. Well said.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2024 ==

I was more thinking along the lines of "all the HS2 seats are booked, go stand on the LNWR train"

"You can't stand for 40 mins. Go get a train to Euston and stand for 2 hours instead, [insert any 4 letter word here]"

 

[DarloRich]

Are you seriously suggesting having to cross a border is comparable in a turn-up-and-go experience to going between two internal cities? Have you considered stand up?

but the point remains - that HS2 has no passport control does not mean compulsory reservations should be prohibited. You have to reserve to travel on similar trains internal in France. Why not here?

Because we have never done that in this country is not a suitable reason in my book.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For the business yes, but Eurostar would far more useful and convenient for passengers if they operated more like a railway.

Eurostar has to comply with the international border rules like airlines and ferries do, which dictate personalised tickets, as well as the Channel Tunnel security regime.
None of that applies to a normal domestic operator, so I don't know why folk seem to think it will for HS2.
It's not necessary on HS1 domestic services, and London-Birmingham isn't much longer a journey than London-Kent coast.

 

[DarloRich]

But I will always oppose issuing artificial barriers to rail travel and not treating it like the essential service it is supposed to be.

it is mentioned above that one must reserve a seat in TGV internal services in France. Does that chock off "essential services"? If not, why would it do so here?

What is the problem with being able to buy a ticket, say, 5 minutes before travel and have a seat assigned to you? Surely the service will be so frequent waiting 15 minutes of the next one wont be a problem

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What is the problem with being able to buy a ticket, say, 5 minute before travel and have a seat assigned to you?

Because I think giving people the ability to stand if they choose too (and to increase capacity and flexibility) is important.

 

[DarloRich]

Because I think giving people the ability to stand if they choose too (and to increase capacity and flexibility) is important.

ok. That is a fair point. Personally, I am sick to death of standing up and want an actual seat that I have paid for. I don't get a discount on XC for standing next to the toilet!

Does the inability to stand on an internal TGV cause problems?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

You have to reserve to travel on similar trains internal in France. Why not here?

Why restrict people the choice? If it really was about giving people seats rather than being able to artificially limit supply (and increase prices!) they would introduce new rights like even when on an advance ticket, if there are no seats you are afforded the right to board the next train with a new reservation. All this does is rob people of the choice. I don't agree with that given the level of subsidy.