How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[30907]

And if you sell a guaranteed capacity to a coach operator, whose coach is of uncertain load?

You reserve the number of seats they have booked for (no reductions for no-shows).

 

[BayPaul]

I doubt the financial model of any heritage railway today even remotely resembles the business justification to build the line in the first place, 100-200 years ago?!

Interestingly, considering the huge debate going on about whether or not they are heritage railways, I would suggest that two lines have successfully preserved this aspect of their heritage - Dartmouth Steam Railway and Snowdon Mountain Railway. Both exist to make a small profit for their shareholders, as the original business plan no doubt included, and in a surprisingly similar way to as originally built.

The Dartmouth Steam Railway continues to act more as a form of transport, taking large numbers of people on a day out to Dartmouth. The steam train journey is an enjoyable aspect, but the non-stop timetable and more limited museum elements makes for the time in Dartmouth to be the focus of the day out, just like when the line was built. It even still includes the ferry across the river.

Similarly, the Snowdon line is still transporting people to the top of the mountain.

I'd argue (somewhat tongue in cheek) that other heritage railways are more artificial 'disneyland' experiences that another poster was complaining about, as these exist more as a fairground attraction, and less as the profitable means of transport that they were built to be! These preserved lines may have purer rolling stock, but when has the British railway network ever not had an utter bodge of inappropriate carriages! Authenticity.

Ultimately, the DVR has an excellent long term business model, and by using employed staff rather than volunteers it is able to invest in training and skills to keep it alive into the future, which other lines may struggle to do.

 

[nanstallon]

Interestingly, considering the huge debate going on about whether or not they are heritage railways, I would suggest that two lines have successfully preserved this aspect of their heritage - Dartmouth Steam Railway and Snowdon Mountain Railway. Both exist to make a small profit for their shareholders, as the original business plan no doubt included, and in a surprisingly similar way to as originally built.

The Dartmouth Steam Railway continues to act more as a form of transport, taking large numbers of people on a day out to Dartmouth. The steam train journey is an enjoyable aspect, but the non-stop timetable and more limited museum elements makes for the time in Dartmouth to be the focus of the day out, just like when the line was built. It even still includes the ferry across the river.

Similarly, the Snowdon line is still transporting people to the top of the mountain.

I'd argue (somewhat tongue in cheek) that other heritage railways are more artificial 'disneyland' experiences that another poster was complaining about, as these exist more as a fairground attraction, and less as the profitable means of transport that they were built to be! These preserved lines may have purer rolling stock, but when has the British railway network ever not had an utter bodge of inappropriate carriages! Authenticity.

Ultimately, the DVR has an excellent long term business model, and by using employed staff rather than volunteers it is able to invest in training and skills to keep it alive into the future, which other lines may struggle to do.

Very true. To me, the DSR is truly authentic. It makes a business from providing a transport facility, incidentally providing paid employment which is never a bad thing! OK, you could get from Paignton to Dartmouth more cheaply by using the more frequent local bus service to Kingswear then the ferry. But that is no bad thing - in a free market people can choose between the two, and there are enough people who choose the train plus ferry option to make it commercially viable.

 

[35B]

You reserve the number of seats they have booked for (no reductions for no-shows).

Precisely. Which means if there are no shows, the onlooker sees empty seats.

 

[xotGD]

Most heritage railways selll "Anytime" tickets, rather than "Advances", so there is not a fixed number of passengers on each train.

Indeed, some promote the "hop on, hop off" flexibility available, allowing passengers to visit the various stations and their environs as they wish. That's what makes for a good day out.

 

[35B]

Most heritage railways selll "Anytime" tickets, rather than "Advances", so there is not a fixed number of passengers on each train.

Indeed, some promote the "hop on, hop off" flexibility available, allowing passengers to visit the various stations and their environs as they wish. That's what makes for a good day out.

Most, but not all.

 

[Falcon1200]

you only sell as many tickets as there are seats on the train. To keep on selling tickets long after all the seats have been filled is in my opinion verging on fraud.

Which means every passenger is restricted to one train out and one train back with no flexibility whatsoever. No thanks!

Personally, I would have rather have the flexibility with the understanding that I might occasionally not get a seat.

 

[JGurney]

It is really very simple, you only sell as many tickets as there are seats on the train.

But that is only possible if you only sell journey-specific singles. Many heritage railways sell seasons and day returns valid on any return service that day. It is also difficult to apply if there are intermediate stations.

 

[duffield]

But that is only possible if you only sell journey-specific singles. Many heritage railways sell seasons and day returns valid on any return service that day. It is also difficult to apply if there are intermediate stations.

It's a nonsense if you've got significant intermediate destination stations, like - say - Highley on the SVR. There's no way to manage all-seat bookings properly on lines line that, although you can have some limited reserved compartments or carriages for groups with specific itineraries.

 

[Trainlog]

Which means every passenger is restricted to one train out and one train back with no flexibility whatsoever. No thanks!

Personally, I would have rather have the flexibility with the understanding that I might occasionally not get a seat.

Agreed. For me, a rover ticket on a heritage railway is my pass to enjoy as much of the line I wish until the last train. I did like the scenery on the Paignton and Dartmouth but I wasn't happy with the 'railtour style' of one designated seat and I would love to do the Ffestiniog one day but it's frustrating to hear that this is the current reality for that line in terms of ticketing.

 

[6Gman]

I'm member of the South Devon Railway and their Bulliver magazine has a regular item on membership. The latest edition states that membership numbers are "considerably less than pre-Covid". Given that Covid restrictions ended over four years ago, I find this surprising. Of course Covid is still around but so are other viruses and we all have access to vaccines. Is there a similar trend on other railways?

I think the Covid effect was more a case of people who had been willing (reluctantly in some cases) to say "I'll do one more year" using the break in 2020 - and in some cases 2021 too - to actually make the break.

I've seen it in other events that rely on volunteers - local shows, clubs etc.

 

[Krokodil]

and I would love to do the Ffestiniog one day but it's frustrating to hear that this is the current reality for that line in terms of ticketing.

I think that the Victorian Weekend is a bit more flexible

 

[Djgr]

I think that the Victorian Weekend is a bit more flexible

Not sure that I feel welcome on the Ffestiniog any longer

 

[6Gman]

Dare I suggest that there's another fundamental question here?

What are heritage railways for?

1. To preserve and display historic artefacts?
2. To provide a tourist attraction for the wider benefit of the local economy?
3. To give volunteers an opportunity to indulge their hobby?

All of the above? Or other reasons?

 

[jupiter]

In the order 3 then 2 then 1. With maybe a couple of exceptions, no volunteers no railway. Now you have a railway is your offering of sufficient interest and quality to attract funds. If so, you can now preserve your artifacts be they carriages, locomotives, signals or signal boxes etc.

 

[nwales58]

Agreed. For me, a rover ticket on a heritage railway is my pass to enjoy as much of the line I wish ... would love to do the Ffestiniog one day but it's frustrating to hear that this is the current reality for that line in terms of ticketing.

Not quite. Somewhere, non-obvious, on the web site you will find hop on and off is still possible with some seats kept free for it. I can't see fares and it's presumably as pricey as the main offering (I live locally but I'm not a member of either society). Posters at the halts make clear it is possible.

The event weekends are you best bet. October 3rd-5th 'Bygones' would cost you 55 for 1 day rover or 110 for 3 days. Compared with about 50 normally for a fixed train Porthmadog-Blaenau return that is relatively good value.

Back on the main topic, if the Ffestiniog or Welsh Highland goes bust the historic fleet is in jeopardy. That is why they have to operate and price as they do post-Covid. I could feel very aggrieved as a local resident, we used to get heavily-discounted fares and I used them occasionally for pleasure. I no longer do because Cerdyn no longer exists but I can understand why and I'd rather they managed the operation sustainably.

 

[Djgr]

Not quite. Somewhere, non-obvious, on the web site you will find hop on and off is still possible with some seats kept free for it. I can't see fares and it's presumably as pricey as the main offering (I live locally but I'm not a member of either society). Posters at the halts make clear it is possible.

The event weekends are you best bet. October 3rd-5th 'Bygones' would cost you 55 for 1 day rover or 110 for 3 days. Compared with about 50 normally for a fixed train Porthmadog-Blaenau return that is relatively good value.

Back on the main topic, if the Ffestiniog or Welsh Highland goes bust the historic fleet is in jeopardy. That is why they have to operate and price as they do post-Covid. I could feel very aggrieved as a local resident, we used to get heavily-discounted fares and I used them occasionally for pleasure. I no longer do because Cerdyn no longer exists but I can understand why and I'd rather they managed the operation sustainably.

Perhaps Ffestiniog has just lost its way?

 

[WAB]

Perhaps Ffestiniog has just lost its way?

In what way?

 

[UP13]

I went on the Ffestionig during the summer. I was skeptical about it being a set itinerary rather than hop on hop off.

However, my family and I had an amazing time doing it. From the railways, perspective I can see why they do it. Yes it is more touristy than traditional heritage but so what.

Likewise we combined the Welsh Highland Railway with a trip to Caernarfon Castle.

 

[Egg Centric]

As a member of both the FRS and WHRS I wasn't to happy about the Expereince Model - but it has been adapted and there is a published timetable. It isn't the first one one comes to on the web site but lurks as a PDF file. Thus one can see what is operating on what days. They really should post a copy of this at each station though. It would cost little and would provide details for those without access to smartphones or a signal.

You can just turn up and each train has a one carraige for non booked passengers. I have turned up three times on a Conwy Valley line train and given the tight connection at Blaenau have never booked in advance but have managed to get a ticket on each occasion.

On the face of it the FWHR is running an experience model - but scratch the surface it is also offering a normal but not very well advertised service.

Pragmatically something like this may be the best system to balance the "low information" normies (who pay the bills) with the enthusiasts who provide the soul. I think it's changing very soon/changed very recently but it used to be the case with those two railways that a round trip ticket could be more expensive than a membership that gave you free travel!

We're used to price discrimination of various kinds in other attractions after all. I wouldn't expect anyone savvy enough to post here to pay full price at any Merlin attraction, for instance.

 

[Falcon1200]

I did like the scenery on the Paignton and Dartmouth but I wasn't happy with the 'railtour style' of one designated seat

I didn't like that on my visit last year either, but having said that the railway is a different kind of operation from most preserved lines with (now) no intermediate stations and most passengers using the train as part of a wider itinerary. I didn't sit in my allocated seat on the return journey anyway! (The train was very quiet).

 

[Dave S 56F]

Severn Valley
Radstock
Foxfield
Chasewater
Tanfield
Doon Valley
Bo'ness & Kinneill
Middleton
East Lancs
East Kent

.....to name but a few.

Stephenson steam railway at Percy main.

 

[Trainlog]

I didn't like that on my visit last year either, but having said that the railway is a different kind of operation from most preserved lines with (now) no intermediate stations and most passengers using the train as part of a wider itinerary. I didn't sit in my allocated seat on the return journey anyway! (The train was very quiet).

Fortunately, it was a Thursday when I went, so there were still plenty of seats, and the guard didn't mind too much. But for me I just didn't like being put on the spot regarding what train I wanted to return on, with no prior idea of how long it would take me to explore the Kingswear/Dartmouth area. I wished I had a bit more time to explore the area.

Not quite. Somewhere, non-obvious, on the web site you will find hop on and off is still possible with some seats kept free for it. I can't see fares and it's presumably as pricey as the main offering (I live locally but I'm not a member of either society). Posters at the halts make clear it is possible.

The event weekends are you best bet. October 3rd-5th 'Bygones' would cost you 55 for 1 day rover or 110 for 3 days. Compared with about 50 normally for a fixed train Porthmadog-Blaenau return that is relatively good value.

Back on the main topic, if the Ffestiniog or Welsh Highland goes bust the historic fleet is in jeopardy. That is why they have to operate and price as they do post-Covid. I could feel very aggrieved as a local resident, we used to get heavily-discounted fares and I used them occasionally for pleasure. I no longer do because Cerdyn no longer exists but I can understand why and I'd rather they managed the operation sustainably.

I will bear that in mind, thank you. The Ffestiniog railway is high up on my list of heritage railways I will get round to as I am definitely enthusiastic about narrow-gauge steam railways. It's definitely unfortunate that you can no longer get those discounted fares, but from what I have seen from videos and photos, the line looks stunning, and from memory, I hear there is a small footplate ride around Portmadog station for relatively cheap in the summer too.

Most I have experienced from the Ffestiniog was when Mountaineer went to the 16mm AGM at Peterborough in 2013, and a small train ride behind Prince at the Greatest Gathering.

Back to the point, I wonder if there is a way for the railway to do more stops on weekdays during the Summer? It would definetly be a selling point to enthusiasts who would rather avoid the weekend crowds to check out the railway and for those who wish for more of a flexible journey.

 

[D Mylchreest]

[...]

Back to the point, I wonder if there is a way for the railway to do more stops on weekdays during the Summer? It would definetly be a selling point to enthusiasts who would rather avoid the weekend crowds to check out the railway and for those who wish for more of a flexible journey.

My experience is that the Ffestiniog services are a bit light at the weekends. I imagine that this is because most holidays start on Saturday and holidaymakers don't do much on Sundays because of the previous day's travelling.

 

[Belperpete]

I could feel very aggrieved as a local resident, we used to get heavily-discounted fares and I used them occasionally for pleasure. I no longer do because Cerdyn no longer exists but I can understand why and I'd rather they managed the operation sustainably.

Local residents do still get heavily discounted fares on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland, but only at quieter times of year. And you no longer need to buy a Cerdyn to get them. Such discounted fares are currently available throughout October. I seem to recall them also being available in September, and in the Spring.

Half price offer for local residents

 

[geoffk]

As a member of both the FRS and WHRS I wasn't to happy about the Expereince Model - but it has been adapted and there is a published timetable. It isn't the first one one comes to on the web site but lurks as a PDF file. Thus one can see what is operating on what days. They really should post a copy of this at each station though. It would cost little and would provide details for those without access to smartphones or a signal.

You can just turn up and each train has a one carraige for non booked passengers. I have turned up three times on a Conwy Valley line train and given the tight connection at Blaenau have never booked in advance but have managed to get a ticket on each occasion.

On the face of it the FWHR is running an experience model - but scratch the surface it is also offering a normal but not very well advertised service.

Is there actually a published timetable? I've just spent three days taking part in charters on the WHR and collected all the heritage railway leaflets for North Wales that I could find. The FHR/WHR leaflet is the only one with no train times at all, just a list of excursions. I see the FR/WHR website has a base timetable but it's not easy to work out which trains run on which days.

 

[John Luxton]

Is there actually a published timetable? I've just spent three days taking part in charters on the WHR and collected all the heritage railway leaflets for North Wales that I could find. The FHR/WHR leaflet is the only on with no train times at all, just a list of excursions. I see the FR/WHR website has a base timetable but it's not easy to work out which trains run on which days.

I was referring to the base timetable.

It is actually now displayed on some station poster boards.

It isn't difficult to work out - I actually find it quite easy. From my observations people are aware of times and making part journeys - each train has a carriage for part journey passengers.

Personally I just wish the base timetable was given more promenance on the web site, rather than at the bottom of the long web page but up at the top.

 

[geoffk]

Hopefully the FR/WHR will have made some money on the charters, despite the "challenging" weather - one of the reasons why many may be put off booking in advance!

 

[Djgr]

I was referring to the base timetable.

It is actually now displayed on some station poster boards.

It isn't difficult to work out - I actually find it quite easy. From my observations people are aware of times and making part journeys - each train has a carriage for part journey passengers.

Personally I just wish the base timetable was given more promenance on the web site, rather than at the bottom of the long web page but up at the top.

Now that they have moved over to offering experiences I'm afraid my money goes elsewhere.

 

[John Luxton]

Now that they have moved over to offering experiences I'm afraid my money goes elsewhere.

That was my original reaction in 2021/2 when the change of direction became apparent. But the fact I kept visiting, saw that people were using the train for local journies and that accommodation for them was provided in addition to the booked accommodation I changed my mind. The appearance of a base timetable which now appears to be displayed on station poster boards this year suggested that both markets are being catered for.

The fact I am a life member of both FRS and WHRS makes it harder for me to stay away- i have had some good visits this year! The Platinum Jubillee / Rail 200 Event in June was memorable.